Concert Hall Organ, Space And Budget Limited

[sprondel]

Let me chime in with another stoplist topic.

 

In a medium size concert hall, with a limited budget and space: What kind of organ would you suggest?

 

Here is my proposal. 29 stops, Great in front of the Swell box, Pedal soundboards on either side, turned by 90°. 61/32 notes.

 

I. Great

Violone 16' (1-12 8' + 5 1/3')

Diapason 8'

Bourdon 8'

Flûte harmonique 8'

Principal 4'

Gemshorn 4'

Twelfth 2 2/3'

Fifteenth 2'

Mounted Cornet III-V 2 2/3'

Tromba 8'

 

II and III, enclosed, alternating sliders*

Bourdon 16'

Diapason 8'

Chimney flute 8'

Gamba 8'

Voix céleste 8'

Principal 4'

Hohl flute 4'

Nason 2 2/3'

Piccolo 2'

17th 1 3/5'

Fourniture IV-VI 2'

Basson 16'

Trompette 8'

Hautbois 8'

 

Pedal

Open wood 16'

Violone 16' (Gt)

Quint 10 2/3'

Open wood 8' (16')

Cello 8'

Trombone 16'

 

II/I, III/I, III/II

I/P, II/P, III/P

II/P 4', III/P 4'

II/I 16'

 

* alternating sliders: stops can be drawn to be played either on II or III.

 

Tromba and Trombone should be on the heavy side. The Great chorus would be assertive but not loud, with pipes cut to length; the Swell Diapason and Principal could be slotted. The Basson would be not too timid, the Hautbois lean and elegant, the Trompette with a bit more fire. The Cornet should be of considerable strength.

 

Any comments?

 

Best,

Friedrich

[Pierre Lauwers]

Quite interesting, and away from "Orgelbewegte alte Reden"....

 

Some suggestions:

 

-Why not chime in the 40-stops thread?

 

-These "wandering stops" are a craze in Belgium now.

I do not like it because it goes against the strong structure

the organ needs. In particular, it is a voicer's nightmare,

with stops that belong to several ensembles. Or must him

resort to 1960's neo-classic "all purpose" plain voicing?

 

-No 4' reed? Trombas are so heavy....And Full-Swell effects

really need a 4' reed and a mixture able to match.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Quite interesting, and away from "Orgelbewegte alte Reden"....

 

Some suggestions:

 

-Why not chime in the 40-stops thread?

 

-These "wandering stops" are a craze in Belgium now.

  I do not like it because it goes against the strong structure

  the organ needs. In particular, it is a voicer's nightmare,

  with stops that belong to several ensembles. Or must him

   resort to 1960's neo-classic "all purpose" plain voicing?

 

-No 4' reed? Trombas are so heavy....And Full-Swell effects

really need a 4' reed and a mixture able to match.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree, Pierre - I value a good 4p chorus reed greatly.

 

I would also question the wisdom of attempting an acoustic bass to the GO Violone - these never work at this pitch - the resultant is difficult to discern, due to the two pitches being really too high to mix. Why not just put a Haskelled bass for the first twelve notes, if there is insufficient height? There is also no point whatsoever in borrowing it on the Pedal Organ, if it is acoustic - all one would hear would be an 8p fundamental and the fifth above.

 

Also - a Mounted Cornet as the only GO compound stop - this will not be greatly useful for the vast amount of standard repertoire!

[sprondel]

Quite interesting, and away from "Orgelbewegte alte Reden"....

 

Some suggestions:

-Why not chime in the 40-stops thread?

-These "wandering stops" are a craze in Belgium now.

  I do not like it because it goes against the strong structure

  the organ needs. In particular, it is a voicer's nightmare,

  with stops that belong to several ensembles. Or must him

   resort to 1960's neo-classic "all purpose" plain voicing?

-No 4' reed? Trombas are so heavy....And Full-Swell effects

really need a 4' reed and a mixture able to match.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for your reply and your suggestions, Pierre. The Orgelbewegung has had its feast long enough, and in concert hall organs it failed more often than not.

 

Well, the 40-stops thread -- there are so many examples of well-designed organs of that size around. Maybe it is a new aspect that everyone wants two enclosures these days. But 40 stops is a size that does not pose so many difficulties regarding the choice of stops. Klotz's III/25 is a lot more interesting in this regard.

 

About the "wandering stops": You are right in that characteristic voicing is hard to achieve when stops have to serve more than one use. But I wonder if that had to be the case in the scheme proposed (maybe the 16-8 pedal stop would be food for thought). There actually is a strong structure: Great, Swell and a rudimentary Pedal, with their respective principal, flute and reed choruses. The one special thing is that the Swell is duplexed mechanically.

 

About the 4' reeds: Yes, they belong to the full Swell effect. But then, some builders find them of little use in concert hall acoustics, where they lose thir fire so that the full Swell with shutters closed sounds like a big harmonium. So, when I was thinking about what stop had to go to keep the scheme small, the Clarion was out on the plank and ready to jump. (The Great Gemshorn would probably be the next stop to visit the fish.)

 

Best,

Friedrich

[sprondel]

I agree, Pierre - I value a good 4p chorus reed greatly.

I would also question the wisdom of attempting an acoustic bass to the GO Violone - these never work at this pitch - the resultant is difficult to discern, due to the two pitches being really too high to mix. Why not just put a Haskelled bass for the first twelve notes, if there is insufficient height? There is also no point whatsoever in borrowing it on the Pedal Organ, if it is acoustic - all one would hear would be an 8p fundamental and the fifth above.

Also - a Mounted Cornet as the only GO compound stop - this will not be greatly useful for the vast amount of standard repertoire!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks to you as well, pcnd.

 

There are some examples of combined 16' Violones that work very well; e. g., for Walcker it was quite common to apply this method when there was not sufficient height. The Riga organ has a very successful stop of that kind in its Schwellpedal. There are also some organs in the U. S. that were built by German builders that have successful stops of that kind, often constructed as "monkey quints".

 

About the GO: The idea of having a rudimentary but assertive four-rank Great chorus I took from some English and American stock-model organs from the late 19th century. It is found also in small Schulze organs. For a concert hall organ, I found it more important to have a mixture on the Swell, so the Great had to go without one. The Cornet gives a glowing power with strong treble ascendancy -- great for a tutti underpinned by a trombone.

 

In terms of repertoire, was thinking more of the organ + orchestra compositions than of the usual organ-solo standard.

[Tubular_pneumatic]

Greetings,

 

This isn't meant to be a criticism of your design, but rather a question: Have organ builders been able to mechanically duplex so many ranks/large ranks without wind-robbing problems? I assume that the windchests would have to be made a bit larger to accept larger channeling?

 

Very interesting indeed, well done!

 

Best,

 

Nathan

[pcnd5584]

Thanks to you as well, pcnd.

 

There are some examples of combined 16' Violones that work very well; e. g., for Walcker it was quite common to apply this method when there was not sufficient height. The Riga organ has a very successful stop of that kind in its Schwellpedal. There are also some organs in the U. S. that were built by German builders that have successful stops of that kind, often constructed as "monkey quints".

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is interesting.

 

However, I would love to know what a 'monkey quint' is, please!

[Pierre Lauwers]

Here is a little concert organ I posted on the french forum:

 

 

Manuel I

Double open Diapason 16'

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8'

Gambe 8'

Flûte harmonique 8'

Octave 4'

Plein-jeu 4 rangs (2 2/3'-2'-1 1/3'-1', termine 5 1/3'-4'-2 2/3'2')

 

Manuel II (expressif)

 

Salicional 16'

Salicional 8'

Vox angelica 8'

Flûte traversière 8'

Flûte octaviante 4'

Octavin 2'

Trompette harmonique 8'

Clairon 4'-8'-16'

Progression harmonique 3-6r

(Commence en 2 2/3'-2'-1 3/5', termine+ 5 1/3'-4'-3 1/5')

 

Manuel III (expressif)

 

Flauto dolce 8'

Flûte céleste 8'

Aeoline 8'

Voix céleste 8'

Zauberflöte 8'

Flûte douce 4'

Clarinette 8'(anches libres)

 

Manuel IV SOLO expressif

Contra Viole 16'

Viole d'orchestre 8'

Violes célestes 8' 2r (one flat one sharp, available seperately)

Flûte d'orchestre 8'

Cornet 5r

Tuba 8'

Physharmonika 8'

 

Pédale

 

Gambe 16' (ext Gambe 8' Manuel I)

Soubasse 16' (emp I)

Open Diapason 16' (ext Diapason Man.I)

Salicional 16' (emp II)

Gambe 8' (emp. Man. I)

Flûte 8' (emp. Man.I)

Flûte 4'

Trombone 16'

Octave Trombone 8' (ext)

 

32 stops plus two extensions

 

Claviers 61 notes, Pédale 32 notes

[JJK]

This is interesting.

 

However, I would love to know what a 'monkey quint' is, please!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe a "monkey quint" is an arrangement where unison pipes have quint pipes attached to them, and fed from a common foot. Separate mouths facing in opposite directions.

 

The quint pipe is said to look like a monkey carried on the back of the unison!

 

It's meant to be an excellent way of constructing a resultant stop, but I've never seen one - does anyone know of any examples in UK?

 

JJK

[sprondel]

Greetings,

 

        This isn't meant to be a criticism of your design, but rather a question:  Have organ builders been able to mechanically duplex so many ranks/large ranks without wind-robbing problems?  I assume that the windchests would have to be made a bit larger to accept larger channeling?

 

        Very interesting indeed, well done!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks, Nathan, for your kind comment.

 

Yes, a soundboard duplexed this way would have to be considerably longer. The wind-robbing is held at bay because the same stop is never used on both II and III, and the groves are fed by separate pallet boxes.

 

Construction and voicing of this kind of instrument seems to take some experience. There are builders like Späth (Freiburger Orgelbau, Germany) or Bigelow (American Fork, Utah, USA), who have built several organs to this design which appear to work successfully. Bigelow calls this design "Either-Or-Organ".

 

Some stops seem to react better to this type of chest than others; Mixtures and small stops in general, for example, seem to be duplexed quite rarely that way, and builders rarely go higher than 1 3/5 in this kind of design. But even if the Mixture was available only on one of the manuals, I believe the scheme would still work fine.

 

Best,

Friedrich

[Tubular_pneumatic]

Greetings,

 

Could you describe what you had in mind for your Tromba? Would this be like a Skinner Tromba or something less imitative?

 

Best,

 

Nathan

 

(I just realized that you described it as heavy, oops!) - 7:35 A.M. EST

[pcnd5584]

 

I believe a "monkey quint" is an arrangement where unison pipes have quint pipes attached to them, and fed from a common foot. Separate mouths facing in opposite directions.

 

The quint pipe is said to look like a monkey carried on the back of the unison!

 

It's meant to be an excellent way of constructing a resultant stop, but I've never seen one - does anyone know of any examples in UK?

 

JJK

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks!

 

Is there anything that involves beavers?

[pcnd5584]

Here is a little concert organ I posted on the french forum:

Manuel I

Double open Diapason 16'

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8'

Gambe 8'

Flûte harmonique 8'

Octave 4'

Plein-jeu 4 rangs (2 2/3'-2'-1 1/3'-1', termine 5 1/3'-4'-2 2/3'2')

 

Manuel II (expressif)

 

Salicional 16'

Salicional 8'

Vox angelica 8'

Flûte traversière 8'

Flûte octaviante 4'

Octavin 2'

Trompette harmonique 8'

Clairon 4'-8'-16'

Progression harmonique 3-6r

(Commence en 2 2/3'-2'-1 3/5', termine+ 5 1/3'-4'-3 1/5')

 

Manuel III (expressif)

 

Flauto dolce 8'

Flûte céleste 8'

Aeoline 8'

Voix céleste 8'

Zauberflöte 8'

Flûte douce 4'

Clarinette 8'(anches libres)

 

Manuel IV SOLO expressif

Contra Viole 16'

Viole d'orchestre 8'

Violes célestes 8' 2r (one flat one sharp, available seperately)

Flûte d'orchestre 8'

Cornet 5r

Tuba 8'

Physharmonika 8'

 

Pédale

 

Gambe 16' (ext Gambe 8' Manuel I)

Soubasse 16' (emp I)

Open Diapason 16' (ext Diapason Man.I)

Salicional 16' (emp II)

Gambe 8' (emp. Man. I)

Flûte 8' (emp. Man.I)

Flûte 4'

Trombone 16'

Octave Trombone 8' (ext)

 

32 stops plus two extensions

 

Claviers 61 notes, Pédale 32 notes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Some interesting points, Pierre.

 

I think that for its size, the scheme is a little heavy in 16p flue stos on the claviers - a seven-stop GO, with two 16p stops, but no 2p and only one 4p stop - this will almost certainly sound heavy and will lack true brilliance.

 

In the same way, I would prefer a 4p flute on the Solo - a Contra Viole will be less useful in general repertoire. Is it your intention that the Tuba will also be enclosed?

 

It would have been good to see a Hautbois on the second (or third) clavier, since so much music calls for one.

 

The Pedal Organ is likely, by contrast, to suffer from a lack of weight - there are too many borrowed manual stops - this will show a weakness where it will be most noticed - in the larger effects, particularly the tutti. A separate Contre-basse (Wood) or just an Open Wood, will also help to cover the absence of a 32p register.

 

However, there are a number of really interesting ideas.

 

One stop with which I am un-familiar, is a Physharmonika - what is this - and what does it sound like, please?

[MusingMuso]

Let me chime in with another stoplist topic.

 

In a medium size concert hall, with a limited budget and space: What kind of organ would you suggest?

 

Here is my proposal. 29 stops, Great in front of the Swell box, Pedal soundboards on either side, turned by 90°. 61/32 notes.

 

I. Great

Violone 16' (1-12 8' + 5 1/3')

Diapason 8'

Bourdon 8'

Flûte harmonique 8'

Principal 4'

Gemshorn 4'

Twelfth 2 2/3'

Fifteenth 2'

Mounted Cornet III-V 2 2/3'

Tromba 8'

 

II and III, enclosed, alternating sliders*

Bourdon 16'

Diapason 8'

Chimney flute 8'

Gamba 8'

Voix céleste 8'

Principal 4'

Hohl flute 4'

Nason 2 2/3'

Piccolo 2'

17th 1 3/5'

Fourniture IV-VI 2'

Basson 16'

Trompette 8'

Hautbois 8'

 

Pedal

Open wood 16'

Violone 16' (Gt)

Quint 10 2/3'

Open wood 8' (16')

Cello 8'

Trombone 16'

 

II/I, III/I, III/II

I/P, II/P, III/P

II/P 4', III/P 4'

II/I 16'

 

* alternating sliders: stops can be drawn to be played either on II or III.

 

Tromba and Trombone should be on the heavy side. The Great chorus would be assertive but not loud, with pipes cut to length; the Swell Diapason and Principal could be slotted. The Basson would be not too timid, the Hautbois lean and elegant, the Trompette with a bit more fire. The Cornet should be of considerable strength.

 

Any comments?

 

Best,

Friedrich

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

======================

 

Well I'm sorry to blow the Fife on this one, but whilst hoping not to be destructive, I think it as wasteful design.

 

I'll leave the Pedal Organ to last, as organists tend to do, and concentrate on the manuals.

 

The acoustic problem is likely to venture into the territory I have described in previous posts, and which still seems to be misunderstood by many, but even with 40 stops, I would be filling out the sonic "hole in the middle" as a matter of course.

 

However, the 40-stop specification which Herr Sprondel presents, is really 30-stops, of which 14 are duplexed across two-manuals. Now, I believe that two manuals with enclosed divisions could be created using a similar number of registers, but I'll have to think this out on the hoof, as I scribble.

 

First of all, I would seriously reduce the size of the Great Organ to almost minimalist proportions, say as follows:-

 

Great

 

Violone 16ft

Diapason 8 (Schulze scale?)

Rohrflute 8 (very large scale)

Octave 4 (Straight-line scale as 8ft)

Blockflute 2

Sesquialtera 2 rks (with the appropriate tapered ranks)

Mixture 4 rks (12:15:19:22)

 

This would fulfill most requirements.

 

We've now saved 3 stops.

 

Swell

 

 

Diapason 8'

Chimney flute 8'

Gamba 8'

Voix céleste 8'

Principal 4'

Fifteenth 2

Tierce Mixture 3 rks

(15:19:22)

Tierce Mixture 3 rks

(24:26:29)

Basson 16

English Trumpet 8 (Wm.Hill type)

Hautbois 8

 

We've saved another 3 stops

 

That leaves us with about 6 independent stops for the third manual; assuming the 30-stop maximum.

 

Choir

 

Stopped Diapason 8

Gemshorn 8

Nason Flute 4

Principal 2

Quint 1.1/3

Harmonic Trumpet 8 (English style - HP unit)

 

Pedal

 

Open Wood 16'

Violone 16' (Gt)

Bourdon 16

Principal 8' (16')

Cello 8'

Choral Flute 4

Mixture V

(15:17:19:22:26)

Trombone 16' (Ext 8ft Choir)

Trumpet 8 (from Choir)

 

 

That's 33 stops in total, but if funds allow the other 7 as independent registers, I would personally have a larger Choir with a smooth Dolcan and a couple of separate mutations. The other four stops would be enclosed, but on the same windchest, as an accompaniment section. The part enclosed and part un-enclosed idea, as at St.George's Chapel, Windsor, works very well and permits greater flexibility.

 

The use of two Tierce Mixtures is an acoustic thing, bceuase they would act as binders and re-inforcers of the mid-range tones; taking the naked edge off pure quint mixtures.

 

The HP (Norman & Beard ?)style big Trumpet would be far, far better than any Tromba; adding body and impact, but blending at the same time. Taken down to the Pedals at 16ft, this would be fairly impressive, I suspect.

 

Full is good, but fat is bad.

 

MM

[AJJ]

One stop with which I am un-familiar, is a Physharmonika - what is this - and what does it sound like, please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Somewhere back in the cavernous archives of this forum are some links I seem to remember to 'soundbites' relating to this strange stop together with info. etc. - 'can't remember where but maybe PL can redirect us.

 

AJJ

[MusingMuso]

======================

 

 

Swell

Diapason            8'

Chimney flute      8'

Gamba                8'

Voix céleste        8'

Principal              4'

Fifteenth              2

Tierce Mixture      3 rks

(15:19:22)

Tierce Mixture      3 rks

(24:26:29)

Basson              16

English Trumpet  8  (Wm.Hill type)

Hautbois              8

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

====================

 

Sorry, I made a mistake The first Swell Tierce Mixture is a quint-one of course, and the Tierce is at the octave pitch in the second Mixture.

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

Here are the three examples on Aeoline.de:

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika01.mp3

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika02.mp3

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika03.mp3

 

As for the concert-hall organ project, it was intended as an accompanimental

organ, not at all for the "repertoire-mind-aiming-at-all-from-Sweelinck-to-Messiaen"

idea.

Heaviness is a question of scaling and voicing, not specification!

The programme was to imagine something playable with an orchestra, with limited space and fundings; so quite close to Friedrich's.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

[Colin Harvey]

Here are the three examples on Aeoline.de:

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika01.mp3

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika02.mp3

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika03.mp3

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a bizzarre but not unattractive sound in the first link!! How does it work and how does the organist control it? It seemes the Physharmonica just fades in and out indepedantly of the rest of the organ.

[Pierre Lauwers]

The Physharmonika is a free-reed stop without resonators.

The pressure can vary at the will of the organist, providing a wide dynamic range from a mere whistle up to a kind of "grand-jeu" with a strong tierce.

It works in fact like an harmonium!

The stop is now build again in Germany, and we shall introduce it in the Walcker

organ here in Namur as soon as possible -that is, when the organ will be restored-.

 

In a synthetic kind of romantic organ, aiming at Franck as well as Reger and Howells,

such a stop is invaluable (I do not speak of my project here above, which is designed

as an instrument of the orchestra) because it provides several strenghts , avoiding thus to have several free-reed stops.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

That's a bizzarre but not unattractive sound in the first link!! How does it work and how does the organist control it? It seemes the Physharmonica just fades in and out indepedantly of the rest of the organ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

======================

 

They're in a box with a lid.

 

It's a bit like listening to a fisherman when he opens the bait-tin and realises it's full of blue-bottles!

 

 

MM

[pcnd5584]

Here are the three examples on Aeoline.de:

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika01.mp3

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika02.mp3

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Physharmonica/Physharmonika03.mp3

 

As for the concert-hall organ project, it was intended as an accompanimental

organ, not at all for the "repertoire-mind-aiming-at-all-from-Sweelinck-to-Messiaen"

idea.

Heaviness is a question of scaling and voicing, not specification!

The programme was to imagine something playable with an orchestra, with limited space and fundings; so quite close to Friedrich's.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thank you, Pierre.

 

With regard to heaviness - I agree - up to a point. But I would still make the point that however well they were voiced, two 16p flues on a seven-stop GO is unwise - if they are light, why not make do with one slightly fuller stop - and have a Fifteenth, instead?

[Pierre Lauwers]

Interesting too is the free-reed type of Klarinette:

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Klarinett_Rostock.mp3

 

Why the french persisted to build this stop as a big-scaled

Cromorne I do not understand.

In Belgium, the Clarinette is nearly ever of this free-reed type

in the romantic period. (Example: Antwerp's cathedral)

 

As for pcnd question: in order to be able to have one very soft

and light.

But again, this project is a special one!

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Interesting too is the free-reed type of Klarinette:

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Klarinett_Rostock.mp3

 

Why the french persisted to build this stop as a big-scaled

Cromorne I do not understand.

In Belgium, the Clarinette is nearly ever of this free-reed type

in the romantic period. (Example: Antwerp's cathedral)

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Antwerp - is that Clarinette really a free-reed?

 

Is there not still a 32p free-reed somewhere? I though that there was, but I cannot remember where it was.

[pcnd5584]

Choir practice - back later.

 

Have a good evening!

 

[MusingMuso]

Interesting too is the free-reed type of Klarinette:

 

http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Klarinett_Rostock.mp3

 

Why the french persisted to build this stop as a big-scaled

Cromorne I do not understand.

In Belgium, the Clarinette is nearly ever of this free-reed type

in the romantic period. (Example: Antwerp's cathedral)

 

As for pcnd question: in order to be able to have one very soft

and light.

But again, this project is a special one!

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

=====================

 

Suddenly, the discussion board contains ghosts of the past.

 

This was EXACTLY the sound I remember of the Clarinette at St.Joseph's RC, Bradford, UK, made by Anneessens, and which was tragically scrapped.

 

It was such a beautiful stop....I just shivered when I first heard it.

 

 

MM