Concert Hall Organ, Space And Budget Limited

[Pierre Lauwers]

Antwerp - is that Clarinette really a free-reed?

 

Is there not still a 32p free-reed somewhere? I though that there was, but I cannot remember where it was.

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Indeed it is, like the Cor anglais and the Voix angélique.

 

Free-reed 32' on the Pedal is a typical feature of the northern german romantic organ -yes, they could do something else than Schnitgers-.

It is sad you british ask this question, because you had at least one famous -in Doncaster!!!-

Schulze is indeed the best known representative of this northern-central german school...

Pierre

[Pierre Lauwers]

=====================

 

Suddenly, the discussion board contains ghosts of the past.

 

This was EXACTLY the sound I remember of the Clarinette at St.Joseph's RC, Bradford, UK, made by Anneessens, and which was tragically scrapped.

 

It was such a beautiful stop....I just shivered when I first heard it.

 

 

MM

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Ah Aaaah!

Of course Anneessens built free-reed clarinets!

Just for the sake of it -Clarinets too are now available as free-reed again-

Pierre

[sprondel]

...

One stop with which I am un-familiar, is a Physharmonika - what is this - and what does it sound like, please?

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The Physharmonica is a free-reed stop that came up in early-romantic German organbuilding. It had brass reeds and, if I recall correctly, zero resonators. In some smaller organs by Walcker or Steinmeyer, e. g., it had its own manual and an own expression device that increased or decreased the wind supply of that stop.

 

It sounds basically like a big harmonica.

 

Best,

Friedrich

[sprondel]

Is there not still a 32p free-reed somewhere? I though that there was, but I cannot remember where it was.

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There is one in the Walcker-Treat-G. D. Harrison organ at Methuem Memorial Music Hall. It can be heard on many recordings -- if you listen closely, that is, because the beating reeds come on much faster than the free-reed, Grand-Grandfather style 32'.

 

Best,

Friedrich

[AJJ]

There used to be a free reed Cor Anglais in a rather ghastly machine constructed by Davies of Northampton in the 60s in the octagonal chapel at what used to be King Alfred's College Winchester when I was there in the late 70s. This instrument had most of it's notes below 8' C controlled from a rudimentary electronic device so a very large 3 man mobile stoptab console controlled a strange looking open plan organ with no very long pipework so that it would fit under the low point of a sloping roof. The free reed sounded like a bad harmonium - slow to speak etc. I have a feeling it might even have been at 4' pitch in one of it's manifestations. The organ is no more and I think the chapel is now put to other uses. It was presided over by the DOM - Brian Longthorne - a good organist and composer but always rather frustrated by us Post Grads. whose attendance at chapel choir was decidedly sporadic!

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

The Physharmonica is a free-reed stop that came up in early-romantic German organbuilding. It had brass reeds and, if I recall correctly, zero resonators. In some smaller organs by Walcker or Steinmeyer, e. g., it had its own manual and an own expression device that increased or decreased the wind supply of that stop.

 

It sounds basically like a big harmonica.

 

Best,

Friedrich

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See the posts above -and hear!-

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

There is one in the Walcker-Treat-G. D. Harrison organ at Methuem Memorial Music Hall. It can be heard on many recordings -- if you listen closely, that is, because the beating reeds come on much faster than the free-reed, Grand-Grandfather style 32'.

 

Best,

Friedrich

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=====================

 

Doncaster is certainly a free-reed at 32ft pitch, and this is the one that people always quote.

 

Now, I'm just wondering if the 32ft reed (re-used from the large, more or less scrapped Anneessens at St.Mary's Bradford) at Leeds Town Hall is a free-reed. It is certainly half-length and is not terribly assertive. I could find out for definite, but it will take telephone-calls.

 

On the other hand, the 32ft reed at Bridlington, by the same Belgian builder, is a huge-scale, full-length striking reed; so I'm not sure it was the usual thing to have a free-reed 32ft.

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

It was certainly not a free reed: chorus reeds in Belgium are french style,

while the solo reeds -in romantic organs- are rather german.

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

Somewhere back in the cavernous archives of this forum are some links I seem to remember to 'soundbites' relating to this strange stop together with info. etc. - 'can't remember where but maybe PL can redirect us.

 

AJJ

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-----------------------------

 

 

Concerning free-reeds, I was trying to find (amd will continue to try) some pictures of the physharmonica reed, which I stumbled across by accident.

 

However, I have found a few pretty pictures and drawings, which give further details of how they look and work.

 

http://www.organstops.org/p/Physharmonika.html

 

http://www.organstops.org/c/FreeReedClarinet1.jpg

 

http://www.organstops.org/c/FreeReedClarinet2.jpg

 

http://www.organstops.org/c/FreeReedClarinet3.jpg

 

http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instrument...nstruction.html

 

 

 

MM

[pcnd5584]

Indeed it is, like the Cor anglais and the Voix angélique.

 

Free-reed 32' on the Pedal is a typical feature of the northern german romantic organ -yes, they could do something else than Schnitgers-.

It is sad you british ask this question, because you had at least one famous -in Doncaster!!!-

Schulze is indeed the best known representative of this northern-central german school...

Pierre

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Of course - Doncaster! How could I forget.

 

Actually, I have at least some excuse - I am half-Russian, Pierre!

[pcnd5584]

=====================

 

Suddenly, the discussion board contains ghosts of the past.

 

This was EXACTLY the sound I remember of the Clarinette at St.Joseph's RC, Bradford, UK, made by Anneessens, and which was tragically scrapped.

 

It was such a beautiful stop....I just shivered when I first heard it.

 

 

MM

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Yes, it is a good sound - not as full and rounded as a FHW Corno di Bassetto, but nevertheless a good stop.

[pcnd5584]

=====================

 

 

On the other hand, the 32ft reed at Bridlington, by the same Belgian builder, is a huge-scale, full-length striking reed; so I'm not sure it was the usual thing to have a free-reed 32ft.

 

MM

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With (at 512mm) the largest scale in tthe British Isles, to boot.

 

Good grief!

[pcnd5584]

Herewith my suggestion for a concert-hall organ. One difference: I would expect that it would be able to give a reasonable account of solo organ repertoire, in addition to being used as a vehicle on which to perform concerti or to bolster an orchestra.

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Contra Bourdon (Ext.) 32

Open Wood 16

Violone (M) 16

Bourdon 16

Principal (M) 8

Flute (Ext.) 8

Fifteenth 4

Bombarde 16

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Solo to Pedal

Solo Octave to Pedal

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled

Generals on Swell Foot Pistons

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Open Diapason 8

Wald Flute 8

Gamba 8

Octave 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV

Posaune 8

Swell to Great

Solo to Great

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Salicional 8

Vox Angelica (AA) 8

Principal 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (17-19-22) III

Hautboy 8

Tremulant

Contra Posaune 16

Cornopean 8

Clarion 4

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

Solo to Swell

 

SOLO ORGAN

(Enclosed)

 

Viole de Gambe 8

Voix Célestes (CC) 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Flauto Traverso 4

Orchestral Bassoon (73 pipes) 16

Corno di Bassetto 8

Tremulant

(Unenclosed)

Tuba Magna 8

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

 

Claviers 61 notes.

Pedals 32 notes.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Interesting design!

I like particularly the Swell, I'd just have an open 16' instead

of the Bourdon (if place is at premium, the first octave could be

done with reasonably scaled stopped pipes).

The Full Swell would be fine, obviously quite Willis-like.

 

As for the Solo, it is interesting you'd place a Voix céleste there.

This was not done during the "post-romantic" period; the Solo needs

something more imitative. (i.e. Viole d'orchestre). The rest of the Solo

is fine.

 

 

Here is a picture from the Physharmonika at Hoffenheim:

 

http://www.aeoline.de/images/Physharm.jpg

 

And here drawings of a Walcker Klarinette:

 

http://www.aeoline.de/images/Klarinette_Zeichn.JPG

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Godd morning, Pierre!

 

Thank you for the drawings and pictures - also for the earlier sound files.

 

The Physharmonika is indeed a strange sound - a little too like a harmonium for me! But then, with that construction, it is very close to the instrument.

 

I did wonder about these two on the Solo:

 

Viole d'Orchestre 8

Violes Célestes (CC) 8

 

but in the end, I decided to go for the less-keen strings.

 

However, you make an interesting point - the above are probably more stylistically correct - I just shudder slightly when I remember some of the acid-toned strings (with the proportions of stair-rods!) which I have encountered occasionally!

[Pierre Lauwers]

These at Ely Cathedral are still fine, having been kept trough the rebuilts

in their 1908 A.H. condition.

I discovered these stops there.

Pierre

[Guest Lee Blick]

The sound reminds me of something out of 'Last of the Summer Wine'. Are there tuning issues with this type of stop because it didn't sound very in tune especially with the other reeds? I doubt this harmonium type stop would become popular here.

[Pierre Lauwers]

The sound reminds me of something out of 'Last of the Summer Wine'.  Are there tuning issues with this type of stop because it didn't sound very in tune especially with the other reeds?  I doubt this harmonium type stop would become popular here.

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They stay actually in tune far better than the beating reeds, hence tuning problems

that are managed this way:

 

-Free reeds must always be placed just behind an access

 

-The Physharmonika in a box attached at the console

 

-Tuning wires must be particularly robust

 

All this in order the organist can do it him/herself.

 

Why would these stops not be popular in UK? Do we have differing ears?

(Yes mines may ressemble Bug's Bunny's, but...)

 

Best wishes, Pierre

[Guest Lee Blick]

No, but knowing the British to embrace things from nations far and wide something like this would have been incorporated into British organs by now, not to say that it wont in the future, but to me it sounds a little bit too much of the old fashioned 'family sing-song around the harmonium'.

[pcnd5584]

These at Ely Cathedral are still fine, having been kept trough the rebuilts

in their 1908 A.H. condition.

I discovered these stops there.

Pierre

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Yes, they are - but they were voiced by Arthur Harrison, who did not use such extremely small scales as did some builders (H-J, Thynne, etc.) to achieve fairly good results.

 

Even so, there are a few examples, even by AH, in which possibly their only musical use is to illustrate verses of Psalms which talk of such things as the poison of asps, etc!

[Pierre Lauwers]

No, but knowing the British to embrace things from nations far and wide something like this would have been incorporated into British organs by now, not to say that it wont in the future, but to me it sounds a little bit too much of the old fashioned 'family sing-song around the harmonium'.

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Lee,

 

Do not forget there has been some slight problems in Europe from 1870 onwards.

Sing-song Dih Doh Dah? Maybe, but Reger as well....

And there are some "Dih Doh Dah" in the baroque music too.

We have eaten here in Belgium up to sickness the Noels etc from

"Monsieur Babou", a craze with the 1980's scholars, but frankly

not much better....(Aaaargh!)

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

No, but knowing the British to embrace things from nations far and wide something like this would have been incorporated into British organs by now, not to say that it wont in the future, but to me it sounds a little bit too much of the old fashioned 'family sing-song around the harmonium'.

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Yes - it sounds somewhere mid-way between a harmonium and an accordion ,both of which feature in the top three of my 'most-hated instruments' list - along with bagpipes.

 

I cannot decide whether it reminds me of episodes of 'Allo! 'Allo! or whether it just reminds me that I really do not like the sound of a harmonium - however expressively played. Not even a Mustel!

[Pierre Lauwers]

Aha!

 

On Plenum we have a "Harmonium" section, quite lively

and enthousiastic:

 

http://forum.aceboard.net/18898-3220-0-L%9...m-harmonium.htm

 

A continental silliness maybe.

Pierre

[Tony Newnham]

Yes - it sounds somewhere mid-way between a harmonium and an accordion ,both of which feature in the top three of my 'most-hated instruments' list - along with bagpipes.

 

I cannot decide whether it reminds me of episodes of 'Allo! 'Allo! or whether it just reminds me that I really do not like the sound of a harmonium - however expressively played. Not even a Mustel!

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Hi

 

Shame on you! Free-reed instruments aren't that bad - and it's worth remembering that many of the French romantic composers played harmoniums - they're certainly not a second-rate instrument. (As you may have guessed, I like harmoniums - but not as a substitute for a pipe organ - and I also play a bit of piano accorion!)

 

That said, the free-reed stops in most pipe organs are a different thing altogether. Most harmoniums don't have resontors for the reeds - and don't have tuning springs (they're not needed - the reeds stay substantially in tune with themselves for decades). Schulz used free reeds as the only reeds in some of his early organs in the UK. I've not knowingly come across one, so I can't really comment on sound, nor tuning stability.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[pcnd5584]

Shame on me?!

 

....and you play the accordion!

 

My flabber is gasted.

 

 

However - no need to worry; help is at hand. Just telephone the Accordion Helpline on 0845 163 77834 and they will be able to suggest a local centre where you can receive help for this affliction.