Tony Newnham
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Posts posted by Tony Newnham
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While visiting Yorkshire last week, I was shown the major rebuilding work at Dewsbury Minster. I understand there is a scheme to install a 3/31 pipe organ originally by Booth of Wakefield, later rebuilt by Conacher, ex St. Marks Church, Dewsbury. Do any of the Northern based contributors to this board know anything of this scheme or the organ itself. Is it a project I should support?
John Carter
Hi
Do you know who is doing the work? I've not heard anything about it, but Dewsbury is not too far away.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Andrew,
I've just received an e-mail from Frances at the NPOR, who says that they have a very large editing backlog, so things are taking several weeks to be updated.
Hi
That's correct - it's a task reminiscent of painting the Forth Bridge! We had a substantial backlog before the recent move of office and concurrent introduction of new software, but we are trying to prioritise situations like the one mentioned earlier. All of the editors are volunteers, so inevitably things take a while to get through the system - we are doing our best! At least the new software should potentially make things a little quicker, once it's up and running properly and we've inroned out a few bugs and got used to it!
Every Blessing
Tony
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The other weird thing is the Pedal soundboard - top F sharp and G are on off note chests. A secondhand soundboard perhaps? The bellows weights have a chequered history and at least two of the reservoirs are to HN&B pattern of the era.
Hi
More likely a change from 30 to 32 note compass at some point in the organ's history?
Every Blessing
Tony
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There has clearly been a great deal of horsetrading in there but NPOR curiously silent about most of it.
Hi
The reason rhat NPOR is silent is that no one has told us of the changes!!!
If you have reliable information, PLEASE let us know, and we can update the survey(s).
Every Blessing
Tony
(NPOR Editor)
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This is the specification.
Hi
The specification is now on NPOR (see E00974), and there's an article in Organ Building 2005.
Every Blessing
Tony
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i thought the Royal Albert Hall organ was a 5-manual instrument. plz. someone tell me if i am correct. did it have 5 manual previously or not?
Hi Steve
Are you thinking of Birmingham Town Hall - that was increased to 5 manuals in the (?) 1980's by Manders IIRC
Every Blessing
Tony
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I'm looking forward to the development of this topic which has all the potential to exceed the number of postings re Aly Paly, RAH and Worcester Cathedral.
Hi
I think we need to bear in mind that a stop list is by no means the deciding factor in an organ's sound - a conventional stop list doesn't mean that an organ isn't "exciting" to listen to or play.
It seems to me that most new organs are relatively small, built for Anglican churches, where leading hymns and accompanying a choir in a very specific form of liturgy are the priorites - and hence it's not really suprising that there's a degree of uniformity about the stop lists - they're built to do the same job.
The examples quoted in an earlier post are, in the main, not in "ordinary" churches - hence the opportunity to depart from the norm - and they are somewhat larger than most new church organs.
As to the question of non-UK builders - that's one I can't answer.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Hi
A PS - entering "Windsor" will NOT find Eton. Entering "Eton" will! And will give you links to the various organs at Eton College - I've just tried it.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Well, I have tried it (N.P.O.R.). However, it appears to be considerably less user-friendly than the previous incarnation (which also had its moments).
Hear, hear!
I tried using NPOR today to find a specific church (and organ) not a hope! I was searching for the Danish Church in Hull which has a pipe organ - when I got there, of course, I discovered that I had been invited to deputise (at short notice) on a one-manual with no pedals and had to shoot back to my own church to find some decent manuals-only repertoire! A locatable NPOR entry would have been a real time and energy-saver.
Please note I did try the button marked NPOR.
I must admit, NPOR used to be rather idiosyncratic - (classic case: when one searched for Eton College Chapel this didn't have an entry - or at least claimed not to have one - either for Bucks or for Berks. Meanwhile (in another part of the wood) the same Hill was a proud holder of one of BIOS's special certificates. At least one could side-step this sort of problem by placing a sufficiently vague question - best tactic was often to ask for the (much larger) general area. 'Widsor' for instance would probably have listed Eton.
Now, of course, with the 'new-improved' version one has to learn a whole new range of dodges. Interestingly, I note that Tony N. has given us correct up-to-date www.addresses, but these are not found by Google. 'emma' and 'lehuray' (of course) are there.
Why is it that things have to be improved beyond the point where they can be successfully used by the uninitiated? I know, typical middle-age moan!
To change the subject:
I recommend that you don't follow advice earlier in this column and get your stopped flutes further greased - that is half the problem. Best trick (if flutes keep going sharp with changes of temperature) is and always was for the tuner to pack the stoppers (by slipping a sliver of paper between the leather and the wood of the stopper). For the same sort of reason I quite like the way old, rusty tuning-slides behave. Flue ranks with them rarely need more than a very occasional touch, unlike those with flashy new ones.
Hi
Please also see my previous reply.
We are aware that there are gaps in NPOR coverage. Re. Danish Church in Hull - firstly, does it have another designation? (dedication to a saint or something?) - if so, it might well be listed under that (or the building may have changed hands since the survey was done!) Then, secondly, does it actually house a pipe organ? We do not record details of electronics or reed organs, although the building MAY be listed as "building without survey" if someone has told us about it.
If it is missing from the records, then please let us know - there's a downloadable form that you can complete with the relevant information to enable a survey to be raised. The same applies if you find discrepancies or that things have changed.
One of the most important pieces of information to check when using NPOR is the survey date - if the organ was surveyed 50+ years ago, then bear in mind that it might well have been rebuilt/replaced. NPOR is a good first sourced of info, but it's not infallable, and it's a mammoth task keeping it up to date. And bear in mind that if people don't tell us when things change, etc. we are unlikely to find out!
Every Blessing
Tony
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Well, I have tried it. However, it appears to be considerably less user-friendly than the previous incarnation (which also had its moments). Basically, I cannot find how to reach the relevant archive. I have followed the instructions and avoided abbreviations. I can reach a page that tells me that there is an archive (BIOS) but I am currently unable to make the quantum leap to the page.
If I type in 'Halifax', or 'Halifax' (and then 'Harrison and Harrison' in the organ builders' box) or even 'Halifax John Baptist' as a keyword search, I either get nothing or I get a page which tells me there is further information, but then turns petulant and refuses (as far as I can see) to direct me to the page.
I would be interested to know whether or not the writer of the software has ever tried to use it 'from the outside', as it were. Certainly, it appears to lack a logical progression. Or else, the response programming is illogical. (It is, of course, also possible that I am too stupid to negotiate the NPOR software.)
Either way, if anyone has the specification of Halifax Parish Church, or a degree in quantum physics (or, for that matter, the psychic ability to discern the contents of the NPOR) please IM me or post a message.
Thanks
Grrrrrrrrrr.........................
:angry: 
Hi
It sounds like you've clicked the BOA tab. To find an NPOR survey, go to www.bios.org.uk/npor, then click the "NPOR" tab (1st left in the row of tabs) In the drop-down menu click on "Address" (or, if relevant, one of the other options) Enter the town name - "Halifax" - and if you know the CORRECT name of the church, just the saint's name (e.g. Barnabas Bradford will find out local Parish Church here) and click "send". The next screen will give you a list of possible buildings, and just click on the link from there. Entering "Halifax Parish Church" will not work, because that's not the correct name for the building, so the database just won't recognize it.
Please bear in mind that computers do not have any intelligence - it will only find words that are in the relevant part of the database! if you're not sure of a spelling, you can use "%" as a wild card to represent one or more characters.
The new interface is very different from the previous one - but once you're used to it, it is actually easier to find the information.
Hope this helps.
Every Blessing
Tony
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With regard to Halifax, it is an organ of which I know little - is there a specification available anywhere, please?
Hi
As usual, the first port of call for info on UK organs is the National Pipe Organ Register (www.bios.org.uk/npor) There's currently somewhere in the region of 30,000 current and historic organs listed - and we're continually updating and adding more information as it comes to hand (so PLEASE let us know if you find an error or an out-of-date survey!)
Every Blessing
Tony
(NPOR Editor)
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According to Stephen Bicknell there are none - what little pipework remains has been revoiced and incorporated into larger instruments.
It's also doubtful whether Adlington Hall is by Father Smith himself: Bicknell believes it is more likely to have been build by someone who was influenced by him.
Hi
There was an article the Sept/Oct Choir & Organ magazine about this very issue - the gist of it has been included on NPOR (see N04410).
A builder search on NPOR will reveal which organs we have recorded that Smith built or worked on - but it was so long ago,I doubt if there's anything much in original condition.
Every Blessing
Tony
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It's not only organists who are in short supply - there aren't that many clergy around, either, these days. Why not replace both with technology? Project the service on to a screen, play the hymns either through speakers or, if you really insist, on an actual organ via a midi interface.
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The "Fall and Rise" of the cinema organ once more.
Splendid idea!
I could be encouraged back to church, dressed as "The abomimable Dr.Phibes."
MM
Hi
The shortage of clergy can (and should) be addressed by increasing lay participation - and anyway - I'm not ready to be replace by a machine just yet!
As for the use of recordings or MIDI, I've attended 2 Anglican churches recently (both in very difficult areas of Bradford) that have gone down this road - it's far from ideal, and in one - a generally thriving Evangelical parish - the MIDI backing tracks were nigh on inaudible - and the introductions were so unclear that it was a leap of faith to start singing - hopeless. The other church - a more middle-of-the road parish at least had stuff with reasonable introductions - even an organ for the traditional hymns (admittedly a recording of an electronic) - and adequate volume to keep the congregation together. Better than the other church, but still far from ideal. If I'm invited back there to preach, I'll suggest that I play the organ as well!
Every Blessing
Tony
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I can put you in touch with someone who looks after a couple of vintage Bryceson (or Bryceson & Ellis) instruments if you like - let me know.
Hi
NPOR lists well over 100 organs (of all sizes) either by Bryceson or worked on by him - discovering how many still exist would need far more time than I'm able to spare. I've seen NPOR surveys for a number of small Brycesons, and indeed the organ in my previous church had no builder's plate, but we think, for stylistic reasons, it could be by Bryceson (NPOR Index no. E00001) - and that's still going strong.
Every Blessing
Tony
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I believe Peter Collins and Allen Organs collaborated on a few instruments, not sure if it was that far back or not.
Hi
Thanks for the reply.
As far as I know the Collins/Allen tie up has only come about in the last couple of years. The ref. to Deckworth organs is nearly 20 years ago, when hybrids were very much in their infancy - Compton did a few (plus the "Melotone" attachments in many of their cinema organs, and I think that a firm in the Midlands tried the concept, but Deckworth is a new name to me - presumably the company didn't survive very long - so far I've only seen this one reference to them.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Hi
I've just come across a reference to "Deckworth organs" in a cassette review in "The Organ" for Jan 1988. The review describes it as a hybrid instrument - a few pipes and electronics for the basses - does anyone have any more info - or know if any still exist? There's nothing coming up on NPOR, nor on a general web search.
Thanks in advance
Every Blessing
Tony
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Hi
That's why we are trying to keep NPOR up to date! (A never-ending task!)
Every Blessing
Tony
Your work is invaluable but I would have thought it beyond the resources of any organisation reliant on the voluntary co-operation of others to be able to maintain its records in a state of total accuracy in real time. It would be quite unrealistic to expect it. Whilst you can reasonably hope to maintain accurate stop lists , it would surely be unreasonable to expect to rely on the register in order to discover that the church was vandalised last night and pipes from the choir clarinet stolen, or that the swell is out of use because of water damage from a leaking roof. Indeed I assume some transitory faults (like blown fuses or rodent damaged wiring) would not be sensible to record since they might well have been corrected before the entry recording their occurence was made. I am sure that much of this information is passed on without problems, particularly where a discernible event has produced a clear consequence. I suspect that the source of most difficulties result from the processes of decay in an instrument whose maintenance has not been as thorough as might have been desirable, perhaps through shortage of funds. Suddenly an incipient problem asserts itself and becomes a very noticeable fault. Only those intimately connected on a regular basis with an instrument are in any position to give an accurate account of what the situation is NOW, at the time when the hapless visitor arrives to perform.
Hi
Your comments obviously are right - by reference to NPOR should (hopefully) prevent a player turning up expecting one organ and finding something totally different! Having said that, one of the most important fields to consult in NPOR surveys is the survey date (and latest update date) - if there several years back - or missing - then don't assume the organ is still there or playable! Some of the surveys date back to information that's derived from archives over 100 years ago - and many of the thousands of organs recorded by the late Charles Drane date from the 1940's-1950's - and he didn't always record the date when he saw an instrument either!
Having said that - in my opinion it's as well to have a contingency plan anyway - after all, part of the instrument may become unusable (cipher or action fault) even during a concert - or a note on a reed might go off tune.
NPOR is a useful source of information, but by its very nature, it doesn't have all the answers!
Every Blessing
Tony
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(2) The resources that they are going to have at their disposal. I know for a fact of one instance where a quite famous player of a former generation turned up to give a recital expecting a 4 manual town hall organ to be confronted with a 1960s 3 manual neo-baroque ultra low pressure job. I venture to think that anyone who is expecting an audience to pay to hear them play owes that audience the courtesy of taking the trouble to find out the nature of the organ on which they are going to be performing and should refuse to agree to play until that information has been provided to him or her.
Hi
That's why we are trying to keep NPOR up to date! (A never-ending task!)
Every Blessing
Tony
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RE Royal Albert HALL Recital.
I notice someone said that they preferred live concerts to CDs. I have a different sort of problem.
I used to belong to the organ club, but I have perfect pitch.
Some churches were excellent, but I am sorry to say that others either had some sort of problem, or had not been tuned before the visit.
I found the Albert Hall to be fine on the two occasions I went there.
I have never yet found a CD or Tape that has been recorded when the organ was not in tune.
What are other people's views on this.
Hi
Don't forget that a good many organs are not tuned to standard pitch (which has itself varied over the years!). The instrument may well be in tune with itself, but way adrift from A=440HZ - and it's quite common for early music to be at A=415Hz (a bout a semi-tone flat).
Every Blessing
Tony
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Hmmm... if only that were true for a very long action! As one who plays weekly upon a machine with trackers of perhaps 30-35 ft length, I take my hat off to the consultant & builder for making it work at all. In truth, though, it has much to offer to an argument against repeating the experiment; it is an absolute nightmare to maintain in playable condition, and there is so much weight, flex and bounciness in the action as to make anything quick a real pig to play, & the repetition is naturally not too good - all of which eliminates the reasons for preferring tracker in the first place. You will save money, both now and even more so in the future (on maintenance), by reaching for the Kimber Allen catalogue and accepting that, just occasionally, the 20th century came up with a better solution...
Hi
Tracker has it's place - and is still, in my opinion, the best choice when circumstances allow. With ref. to long runs on tracker, I well rember on that I played at odd times - in the former St. James Church, Edgbaston, Birmingham. That was a fair size 3 manual from just before the turn of the 19th century, typical chancel chamber position - however, it had a nave department - elevated at the head of the north aisle effectively. That had tracker action - running from the coupler backfalls (Nave was playable from choir or great manuals) down to just above the regulator, where a set of squares turned the action 90 degrees to horizontal - to another set of suares giving a right angle to the right to another set of squares to give a vertical run of about 6-7 ft - to yeat another set of suares taking the action horizontally through the wall (probaby about 5 ft run) to a horizontal roller board beneath the chest! I think there may have been some pneumatic assistance for the basses, but everything else was tracker - somewhat heavy, but still playable without too much trouble even after some 40 years of neglect and minimal maintenance. Why Nicholson's didn't use pneumatics I don't know -especially as the Swell Trumpet was on a pneumatic chest & relay to give 16ft and 4ft extensions!
Probably the best tracker action I've played on a large organ is the St. Martin in Girton College, Cambridge (a suspended action).
Every Blessing
Tony
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Dear MM,
I have come across McClean playing Rhapsody in Blue on the Organ but never heard before of the Grieg. Just out of interest does it actually exist? (Or is this another MM wind up ?) My technical knowledge of recording really extends no further than a vague knowledge that recording technology progressed considerably in advance of the technology for reproducing the sound, so that stereo was being experimented with well in advance of the second world war yet had to wait till the middle 50's to become a reality as far the public was concerned.
Thus I lack the expertise to enable me to know for sure whether what you assert occured was technically possible. OF course Mac survived until 1962 but I have never come across anything recorded after he moved to Canada, which is not to say it does not exist. If he were still to be active even during the 1950's then presumably it would have been possible for him to double track in that way.
Also I think I understand your point about the ability to "edit" or perhaps "compile" Welte Rolls, but I might have got this wrong too. I am correct in taking you to mean that they were not necessarily a reflection of a genuine live performance, am I not ?
Brian Childs
Hi
I've heard the qQuentin MacClean recording on "The Organist Entertains" so it does exist. I can't remember the date, but magnetic tape was available in the late 1940's. Welte rolls, according to what I've read in various places, were edited and tidied up - I don't know to what degree, but editting wouold just mean covering holes in paper, and punching new ones in the right place.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Hi
There are 2 organs in the Bradford area that have digital additions. Addingham Parish Church has a substantial digital contribution
The other instrument is Bradford Cathedral, where a pipe Nave department was replaced by Bradford system electronics in 1990.
Again, I can't comment on why the digital section was installed, but the life-span is an issue that needs to be considered.
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I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would have wanted to retain that ghastly instrument at Addingham Parish Church, and then add second-division digital voices.
The cathedral at Bradford has had more than its' fair share of troubles, and in living memory, it was ever thus. The Nave Organ as was, was a nice little division which served a vital function. Due to the fact that the main organ is buried in a chamber which speaks out into the chancel only, any sound which made it beyond the crossing was always going to be ineffective. For the larger gathering, the nave organ drove the congregation along nicely.
"They" who had to be obeyed, decided that four wooden stilts were an obstruction at the West End, and wanted the free space; presumably for celestial dancers with fans, or somesuch.
Then there was the Ayatollah, who mercifully departed Bradford and went elsewhere to promote his personality cult and create mayhem.
As he surrounded himself with "yes men" (and women), one might well imagine that the removal of the nave organ was a mere formality at the time.
"Oh! Holy one, what a wonderful idea! Praise the Lord!"
MM
Hi
I must say that I found the organ at Addingham pretty reasonable - not top class, but a competent instrument, and I suspect the rebuild and digital additions cost rather less than a replacement.
Regarding the cathedral, I wasn't in the area when the pipes were removed, so I can't comment on the politics involved (and probably wouldn't anyway!). The lack of the Nave department today was slightly problematical, even with the centre of the nave about 3/4 full for the funeral, I was having to use plenty of organ. The deputy organist had advised nothing less than Swell 7 + Great 6 (out of 8 pistons) which wasn't far out - although I did go rather lower once the singing was under way - but suprisingly, not even the Purcell Trumpet was too much to solo the melody in "Thine be the Glory" for the last verse - with Gt7+full swell for the final refrain - the congregation certainly sang well! Had the Nave organ been available I would have been able to add that and use less "up front".
Every Blessing
Tony
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Hi Tony, I don't think I quite understand what you mean. Can you explain what you mean here?
Excellent point!
Hi
The digital sounds are identifiably different to real pipes - possibly because they're "too good" - not random in the same way pipe speech is - perhaps slightly artificial. It's rather intangible...
Every Blessing
Tony
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I am sorry and did not mean to pontificate, I think there is wrong on both sides. Please also forgive a delay in responding, I only actually looked at this page earlier today. I certainly do not think music groups, or any group, should be ruled out or any put above any other, but I do see a lot of damage, and that damage is right accross the board, and the Catholic Church is far from exempt of criticism. I wish that my own church would actually get a music group for sunday mornings. The saturday Mass is always traditional and I am concious that a congregation can get bogged down with so much organ and choir. There just aren't people coming forard to do anything else, so I have to do the lot. Meanwhile, a new priest could just come in and want the choir and I out. It happens, and this is what I am trying to point out. For any injury and upset, I again apologise, in particular to Tony.
All best,
Richard
Hi Richard
Apology accepted. It's very easy to mis-interpret e-mail correspondence.
I'm very sorry to hear that your new priest is trying to oust the choir and organ - what a waste of a resource which should be encouraged - and with goodwill on both sides can happily co-exist with a music group. I'm pretty surfe that my organist here at Heaton feels his ministry is more accepted since I came here - and I hope the music group do as well. I hope your priest sees sense before it's too late.
Every Blessing
Tony
:angry: 
Dewsbury Minster
in General discussion
Posted
Sounds good Nick.
Could I ask you to let NPOR know when the work is finished? We can then get the records up-to-date. If I can find time, perhaps I'll try and visit the church - is it normally open?
Many Thanks
Every Blessing
Tony