Tony Newnham
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Posts posted by Tony Newnham
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it was demolished a few years ago, and the organ I believe just broken up. What was in Birmingham Central Hall?
There's a survey on NPOR. I heard the organ in the mid-1970's (I was accompanying (on piano) a choir from, I think, St. John's Harborne for some area event (can't remember the details now - it was a long time ago, and not desperately memorable! - just helping someone out).
I was suprised to see that it had been restored in the early '70's accoring to NPOR, as there were at least 2 cyphers that evening - one being the pedal reed, which "stuck" during the closing hymn, and refused to stop speaking until the wind was turned off and reservoir emptied! (I was glad I wasn't the organist!). Apart from that, I seem to remember quite a reasonable instrument on that brief encounter.
Every Blessing
Tony
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I am shocked to hear this ! Why remove the fifth manual just to facilitate a better position for the music desk ? Westminster abbey manage perfectly well. In any case it would no longer make it a five manuel instrument anymore. This is silly. I implore you to reinstate it and to talk with the advisors again who have come up with this crackpot idea. I feel that strong about this matter that I might even protest to my local MP
Hi
The Birmingham organ was a four manual until the last rebuild.
Every Blessing
Tony
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It would really be quite impossible to record and actually reproduce for example the huge dynamic range of Liverpool Cathedral Organ (that will never happen), so some form of reduction must generally take place? Given this organ well exceeds 120 db and is downright terrifying at close quarters as if the floor is coming up let alone the vault disintegrating, CDs just do not have that range, and it clarifies that point perfectly. What I do find irritating is needless little tweaks, and the old BBC boradcasts were notriously bad at raising flutes to almost tuba power in extended passages, where you could hear the ambient noise increaing with the balance engineers finger!! With the advent of DAB this is less of a problem, but I have noticed some tweaking even now. Certainly smaller organs could be left as they are, and often cathedral organs do not reach such measures as Liverpool. It all comes down to compromise, both in recording technique and reproduction limitations. I concerted my loft and have my hi fi there, with two subwoofers, and it sounds great, but still not the real thing!!! Choirs do not escape either, soloists pushed up front etc. You still find a sudden crescendo cut back even now with most broadcasts. So much for DAB with "0 error" settings. Hmm!!!
All best,
Richard.
Hi
Actually it is now possible to record a 120dB dynamic range - IIRC 24bit digital recording will come pretty cloes if no actually get there. The problem then is finding microphones & pre-amps that will actually handle that range - and reproducing it would be an even bigger problem!
In defence of my sound balancer colleagues in broadcasting, the brief is entertainment for the "average" listener - and these days that's usually someone listening in the car - hence dynamic range reduction is still very much needed - and the experts can do it virtually inaudibly. Bear in mind, too, that the main BBC radio chanels are still broadcast on FM (around 50dB max. dynamic range) - and they certainly don't have the budget for seperate mixes for the various output streams. (Radio 3 for instance is on FM, DAB, Freeview and the Sky sattelite - plus internet streams!) The there's the problems of "Optimod" type processors on most broadcast channels - automatic compressors that the balance engineer has no control over - aimed at keeping the "average" punter happy.
You may be interested to know that even the BBC4 Proms broadcasts used the Radio 3 sound mix (cost saving) - although the BBC1/2 transmissions are seperarely mixed to match the pictures. At present, my colleagues in the Institute of Broadcast Sound (some of whom work for the BBC) tell me that the best audio quality for radio 3 is on the Sky Sattelite - a reasonable data rate, and no extra processing.
Every Blessing
Tony
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I think that this is preferable to the alternative, which would be, presumably, that all tracks are equalised so that everything comes out at the same volume. Yes, the former method does mean that it is occasionally necessary to adjust the volume. However, surely this is more likely to be a fair reflection of the effect of the instrument heard live.
In an organ recording which I have just made, the microphone was placed in one position for the entire recording (diagonally opposite the case). Whilst the microphone was raised a few feet, the resulting sound is a pretty true representation of the instrument in its surroundings.
There are one or two moments on the recording where I use the softest stop on the Swell Organ with the box closed. Yes, it is very quiet - but it is also very quiet in the building. It does create a slight problem if one is listening in a car; however, that part of the track lasts only for a few seconds. At the opposite end of the scale, the disc concludes with the Choral from Vierne's Second Symphony - the tutti being employed for the last few chords. Again, it is comparatively loud on the CD (at a reasonable volume); once again, in the building the effect of the tutti is also quite shattering in various places.
Some food for thought.
Hi
Having spent a number of years producing radio programmes, I know a bit about recording, and it is possible to reduce the dynamic range of a recording to manageable proportions - indeed, until the advent of CD, it was essential if the quiet sounds were not to be overwhelmed in the background noise of CD - and even analogue tape hiss.
I also agree that a short period of quiet music is acceptable - but constant switching between very quiet and very loud can become irritating!
To a large extent, the approach that the recordist takes is governed by the final audience of the product - a recording for the general entertainment market will be approached in a different way to a purist, documentary-type recording for the enthusiast (which I prefer on the odd occaisions when I've got time to just sit and listen) - although traffic noise outside is a bit of a problem here.
Like many other things, it's a matter of choosing the approipriate compromises.
Every Blessing
Tony
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I Just had a listen to that, there are snippits on line. The first piece is pretty good, but I note that the pedals are basically all pedal points, which is ok, but a bit hard to get into. Still, a very worthwhile and interesting CD. Another very interesting CD is by David Bedford with Mike Oldfield, "Instructions For Angels", which used Worcester Cathedral in overdrive to great effect. This is reissued on CD but may be hard to find in some places. The organ as ever sounds wonderful, and Mike Oldfield on his electric Guitar (also in the building) makes a most interesting contrast. let's also not forget Wakeman on the "Six Wives" using St Giles Cripplegate, another gem of an organ, very well restored by Manders. It also featured in "Close To The Edge" by Yes. meanwhile Ely was used in Classic Rock for a whiter shade!!!! Well it makes a change from Bach what!!??
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Richard.
Hi
Yes, the Lincoln recording is very obviously Wakeman - not really great music, but enjoyable none the less. IIRC, he used the Compton 2m at South Harrow Baptist Church (the church where he grew up) on the original "New Gospels" (I've got it on LP, but they haven't been unpacked since we moved here, so I can't easily check).
I'll have to look out for the Mike Oldfield CD. I have a particular interest in organ plus other instruments, both contemporary and historical. Another LP that I have is organ and guitar duets (John Williams & Peter Hurford). I really must get my LP's out and have another listen.
Every Blessing
Tony
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I wholeheartedly agree with what I take to be the thrust of Richard's point. I have long been of the opinion that any recording of an organ ought to come with a sketch map to show where the microphones were placed in relation to the instrument (and each other, if more than one is used), so that the listeners can know whether they have any realistic possibility of actually hearing the sound as recorded if they visit the building. However, unlike some who seem to have clear preferences for a particular approach to recording, I can live with a variety of approaches, including multi-miking, which can produce some spectacular results, as it did with Christopher Dearnley at St Paul's on GCOS No 17. But I do want to be told.
Regards to one and all,
Brian Childs
Hi
I think it's worth remembering that multiple microphones was often the norm for recording (as opposed to broadcasting) when the GCOS was recorded - and often still is today. Purist recordings have their place - but we do need to remember that a CD is primarily intended for home entertainment (anad to make money) - not as a documentary record. Inevitably, there will be compromises. I have a problem with some Priory releases that preserve the dynamic range of the organ from pp-fff - in most domestic settings, that means constant adjustments to the volume control to hear the soft passages above the ambient noise (traffic, etc), or being nearly deafened with the loud bits. There is a particular problem with divided organs - there often will not be one place that does every part of the instrument justice.
I've recently bought a Rick Wakeman recording made at Lincoln Cathedral - primarily on the organ. That's very interesting - especially as there's a bonus CD that includes binaural versions of some of the tracks - very impressive on headphones.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Yes, I think that this is a good idea.
Interestinly, the organ in Kilkhampton Parish Church has quite cleverly arranged pistons. Apart from almost certainly having the first general pistons in the county (two, in 1953) the three thumb pistons for the Pedal/GO are set differently to the three foot pistons. This means that, if one uses thumb and foot pistons alternately, a very smooth crescendo is possible.
Hi
Sorry, but Wurlitezer beats this by a long way - the Rye Wurlitzer (dating from the 1920's) had all 8 thumb pistons configured as generals on the original setter board. I would guess that other Wulitzwers of the same vintage had similar arrangements??
Every Blessing
Tony
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let me know, its fairly new and I would like some feedback on it!
A bit of self promotion never hurts anybody, apparently!
Hi Richard
Web site looks good - keep it up. One point though, the link to NPOR is incorrect - it takes you to the LeHurray server, will is no longer being updates, and will be taken off-line at the end of August. The correct link is www.bios.org.uk/npor, which currently takes you to the new database on a computer called Emma at Cambridge University - but that in turn will be moving within the next couple of months to a new location in Birmingham, hence the URL for that will change, however, the link via the BIOS web site will be updated to take you to the correct location.
Hope it goes well at Chester - meybe I can come and have a look (and a play) when we're on holiday in the area (probably soon after Easter next year).
Every Blessing
Tony
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Ah, it had to happen eventually, something I can agree with you on Tony. I do hope, as I do, that you take all contra arguments in good spirit and on the basis that fair discussion of opposing views is one of the strengths of this discussion board.
Of course all pianos are different, and I'm sure we all have our preferences. Equally not all violins sound the same, or all flutes, or all tubas, or any other instrument. The whole early music recording industry has grown up on the obvious reality of these differences and hopefuly most of us would agree that our understanding of music of many periods has gained immeasureably as a result.
Whether an authentic sounding "period" organ is a suitable instrument for accompanying the average UK anglican cathedral liturgy is, of course, an entirely different argument.
Hi
Glad we agree on something" - and "agreeing to differ" should be part of life. As to the suitability of an organ for Anglican liturgy, there are plenty of organs in the UK, let alone the world, there that just isn't an issue - especially in the Free Churches! Anyway, I assume that it is possible - there are some decidedly "non-liturgical" organs in University Chapels!
Every Blessing
Tony
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Square pianos tend to sound like square pianos, concert grands tend to sound like concert grands, and Eb Tubas don't sound radically different now to how they always sounded.
MM
Hi
Splitting hairs, maybe, but pianos can be as individual as organs, both in sound and feel. There's a world of difference between the upright in my church, and my favourites - Bossendorfer and Bluthner (and they again are very different) - and modern grands are different again from the probably c.1900 Broadwood Grand that we had when I started learning, may years ago.
In an ideal world, you could select a piano top suit the repertoire that you're playing, just as different schools of organ building suit some repertoire better than others.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Tony Newnham writes as if all detached consoles result in problems with delay in hearing what you play. This is clearly not the case. It can of course be a very real problem where there is a significant distance between the console and the pipes, but when they are close together - as in Gloucester for example, there's no problem at all.
Hi
That's not quite what I said - althoguh by the nature of things, there MUST be a delay due to the speed of sound propogation between pipes and the console - and inevitably, when a console is detached, the distance is greater, and hence the dealy is greater.
I - personally - have found that I am quite sensitive to even relatively small delays, hence I prefer attached consoles. Maybe if I had to accompany Catherdral Choirs from a pulpitum console my views would be different - who knows? Whichever way you go, there are compromises, so, as has been said before, "each one to his own". It depends what your priorities are - and what the function of the organ is. I will hapily play organs with detached consoles (I've played services on 2 within the last few months, as well as an electgronic with the console at the head of the nave and speakers at the west end - but I notice the delay, and I'm far happier with a good tracker action.
Every Blessing
Tony
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However, this is often easier with detached consoles! Whilst there are often inherent problems with regard to time-lag, there are many advantages - for example sight-lines to a conductor. The question of balance - I find generally, that it is far easier to assess balance from a detached console. Often with attached consoles, the case of the instrument overhangs the player, so one is shielded from much of the sound being produced. If there is a positive case behind, ther problem is exacerbated. (It is not always possible to open the access doors privided!) Ripon Cathedral has one of the most difficult organs with which to assess balance. The player is literally surrounded by the organ - visibility is limited (I am unable to recall if there is a monitor for the conductor) to peering through holes in the fretwork of the side-panels of the case.
<SNIP>
However, each to his own!
Hi
I personally would rather be close to the organ, rather than at a distance. For me, the advantages of immediacy far outweigh the percieved problems of balance, etc. A trusted listener (and listening to others playing the organ) can help on the balance issue. Sightlines to a conductor can be a problem. As you say, each to his own!
My dislike of detached consoles dates from my early days of learning the organ. The church that I used for practice (St. Giles, Kingston Buci, nr. Shoreham in Sussex) and where I ahad lessons, replace their old 1m 5 stop tracker organ with a 2m extension job by Osmonds. Pipes at the rear of the church, console at the front. The first time I played it, I found myself virtually a semi-quaver in front of what I was hearing (and it's not a large church). I've also played some horros with detached consoles since (St. Leonard's Parish Church, St. Leonards, E. Sussex springs to mind even after about 15 years, the action was so painfully sluggish) and I have never, with the exception of the Wurlitzer, found a detached console set up that I was totally happy with.
It's the variety of organs that makes them so interesting, though, so I suppose I shouldn't complain.
Every Blessing
Tony
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However, some definite information with regard to the outcome, when possible, will be gratefully received. I find it an extremely useful resource, particularly when considering invitations to play recitals, etc. There are, of course, all those lonely hours in the loft during sermons to think of, too...
Just joking - honest
Hi
I'll let you (and the list) know anything I find out.
Every Blesswing
Tony
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This is an interesting subject.
I am quite happy for a moderate-sized two-clavier instrument to be operated by mechanical action (including any combination mechanisms) but remain unconvinced by the perceived merits of controlling large instruments by mechanical action.
Hi
As I see it, action choice depends more on the organ's position and layout, and of course, wind pressure. Tracker can work - and be very light - on a fair sized organ.
Last year I was able to play the St. Martin organ in Girton College cgapel, Cambridge (the stop list is on NPOR - no time to look up the ref. no. this morning). It's a moderate-sized 4-manual (probably it would be laid out as a fair-sized 3m in a normal church or concert hall - student practice for major recitals was part of the design brief. It has a very vertical disposition, suspended action, and is incredibly light and responsive, even with the couplers drawn. (To the point that, I was told, some players actually draw the couplers to increase the action weight!)
Admittedly, there are no octave couplers, and no high-pressure reeds, but it's still pretty versatile.
And I still hate detached consoles - even with non-mechanical action, I want to be able to hear what the organ's doing! And not have the "lag" due to sound propogation, if not the organ's action.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Personally, I would rather spend the sermon swivelling round piston-heads around in order that the engraved numerals were correctly aligned. (Well, what else should I do in the sermon?)
I await a somewhat pained response from the Rev. Newnham...
Hi
You might try listenign - you might even learn something of spiritual benefit!
Not all sermons are boring. How would you feel if the audience sat reading books or whatever during your recital - or the choir's anthem?
Every Blessing
Tony
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This was also helpful to me - thank you.
However, I am apparently unable to obtain search results for an entire county. When I typed in a county (and included the wildcard) the software rather testily replied 'This would bring back a search of 429 buildings' (tsk! tsk!) 'And?' I thought to myself.
Is there any way of achieving this, please? I could on the old layout. :angry:
Hi
Probably not - I suggest you e-mail and point out the problem (although I doubt if anything will be done at present.
The old layout is currently still available on http://lehuray2.csi.cam.ac.uk/npor.html - but don't tell anyone I told you.
PLEASE NOTE:-
a) This database does not include recent updates.
It will be removed - the last date I had was end of August.The whole situation is in a state of flux - I spoke to the outgoing manager this morning, and even he doesn't really know what will happen. In the meantime, I - and the other editors - wait to see what transpires.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Hi
Quoting MM:-
>A Wurlitzer chest-action could not be simpler,
But in the example I played - in Thomas Peacocke School, Rye (before the recent restoration) the relays were also electro-pneumatic (small electric action valves controlling pneumatic motors that moved the switches in the relay - all enclosed in glass-fronted cabinets) - and the response was still lightning-fast.
>Because the electro-pneumatics key-actions are entirely contained within the individual unit-chests without a seperate wind-supply to the action, it is totally irrelevant as to how far the console is from the pipe-chambers, and on many installations, the pipes can be forty or more feet above the console, and sometimes divided across a whole auditorium.
But when pipes are away from the console, the speed of sound comes into the equation - I think that's part of the reason that I don't like detached consoles - my preference for tracker action is more down to the "feel" and the immediacy of control.
>Furthermore, there is often gross over-estimation of the wind-pressures employed on theatre organs. Most Wurlitzer organ flue-pipes such as strings, flutes and the less powerful reeds speak on about 7" wg. The more powerful Diaphonic pipes and Tubas/English Horns seldom exceed 15" wg, but there are certainly higher pressures employed on some of the real monster installations in the USA.
Agreed - by at Rye the action was winded direct from the blower - which was itself rather oversized, and one of the team had measured the action wind pressure. Pipe pressure was much lower, controlled by reservoirs beneath the chests.
>Lastly, whilst I've never actually seen an example stripped for inspection, I believe that the thumb-pistons actuate PNEUMATIC motors which control the movement of the stop-tabs on the console rails. That is the ONE THING which can be slow to respond on a well-worn Wurlitzer. Compton used a much more elegant system of far freater reliability, which I think was entirely electro-mechanical.
True - at least for older Wulitzers - the Rye example was one of the first to come into the country. At that time, the combination action was out of use, because the wind-trunk to the console leaked too badly - hence we had to block ogg the console wind supply. Incidentally, the thumb pistons - although split between the manuals in the usual way - could all be set as "generals" on the setter board.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Hi
As I see it, there's no advantage whatsoever of pneumatc or electro-pneumatic over a well-made tracker action. Pure pneumatic action, by the nature of the beast, will always cause some "lag" in response - and particularly when the console is some distance from the pipes (the only reason, except on very large organs) for not using tracker. E-P is better, but I've only played one example that seemed to have a really adequate response - that was a Wurlitzer theatre organ with the action on something like 20-30" pressure, and only a small distance between console and pipes. Direct-electric, as someone said, is problematic because of the inertia of the magnetic parts. I've read a study of the response of electric actions (www.pykett.org) and it gives food for thought.
Maybe I'm ultra sensitive to timing, but I much prefer the direct mechanical contact with the pipes - and the feel - of tracker action.
Every Blessing
Tony
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thanks for that Tony, I have the sky+ system, so I will have to put it throgh the hi fi, trouble is the mrs ain't into classical music especially if it has more than one keyboard and 9000 plus pipes (and she calls me an anorak) so I will have to keep the volume down
Hi
I sympathise - I have the same "problem" - not so bad now we have enough space for her to have a seperate study with a TV, etc. Having said that, finding time to just sit and listen is a problem - most of my listening is while I'm working in my study, so I can't access the Sky audio outs either.
Every Blessing
Tony
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I have not been that impressed with any broadcasts of the organ either at the A.H. or of choral evensong, I have been told that the BBC and others like classic fm as the sound is always compressed. I have recorded an organ piece of radio 3 and its at the same level , nearly, all the way through fom pp to ff. I hear Dame Gillian Weir is doing a concert at the Albert Hall in October, that should fill the hall nicely
Hi
If you've got access to Sky, the BBC R3 feed on there is uncompressed (except for the digital data reduction), and reflects most accurately the balance engineers' intentions. Most SKY digiboxes have an audio output that can be connected to a Hi-Fi system.
Every Blessing
Tony
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This console looks very similar to the console at St Matthew's. I've not seen another one like it.
Hi
The "recommended" URL to access NPOR is www.bios.org.uk/npor - although the links to lehurray & emma should work, the whole set-up is moving to Birmingham in the next few weeks, at which point the URL will change, but the link on the BIOS web page should be updated to point to the correct place. Hence I suggest that you do not bookmark any other link at present!
Every Blessing
Tony
(one of the NPOR Editors)
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I'm sorry, but I find your view of music groups downright insulting. What right have you got to say that your Latin music is any more sacred than anything else -
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It's called "freedom of speech" Tony.
MM
And I still say that it's insulting. Your right to freedom of speech, as with all rights, also brings responsibilities, especially the responsibilty to respect other points of view, not denigrate them. I would have no problem if you said Latin Mass/traditional music or whatever is your (personal) preference, but to say that it's the only valid worship music is not only insulting, it's patently untrue.
Every Blessing
Tony
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Most intolerances in the church have stemmed from worship groups and various other bodies who see the traditional line to be old hat and think we need to get the drums in. One Anglican vicars wife told me how she had to "suffer" evensong at Tewkesbury. Another so called "christian" announced that if I had the choir chanting psalms she would leave. I simply questioned why she thought she was in church. Well!...I left, and converted to the RC. Other churches relish nasty modern hymnbooks over properly set out hymns and music. A lot of modern worship is geared to actually entertain, where it should not be an entertainment. It seems to me that people these days like church to be so much an extention of their comfy living rooms, and we have become very consumerist, rather than being there to worship. People like nice plush carpets and heating that ruins organs, and no one says a thing. That's a measure of how important that pipe organ is, and yet for centuries we have survived Common Prayer and Latin masses, but hey presto it's been get the altar rails out, have kids running mayhem through the church and make sure people sense very little division between secular and sacred. Musical excellence is important, and is needed, and should ever be respected. I have a 17 boy strong choir who love to sing Latin, and the church love them and to hear it, so no one tell me that modern clappy stuff is the answer. A choir should create reverence. A bawdy music group basically emulates the local pub. My church thrives, but ask yourself this. Can you honestly say that the modern church is fuller than it was 20 years ago, since Vatican II or ASB? or whatever latest it may be? the answer is clearly no, and its high time we learn to treasure the sacred and keep tight hold of it. Music falles firmly into that category, or should. never mind emulating top of the pops. People have to experience the sacred. There has to be a divide between heaven and hell.
I'm sorry, but I find your view of music groups downright insulting. What right have you got to say that your Latin music is any more sacred than anything else - or the BCP or anything else come to that! It's your sort of intolerance that has upset many contemporary Christian musicians.
Tony
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Hi
I listened with interest to last night's prom. Despite the fact that I'm not really "in to" modern classical music, I found the organ concerto interesting. The organ sounded well - although the interior shots on BBC4 seemed to bear no relevance to the pipes actually being used at the time!
I only wish we heard more of this unique instrument - especially in the Proms - the organ needs all the exposure it can get these days.
Every Blessing
Tony
Who Decides Who Gets To Play What Organs And Why?
in General discussion
Posted
Hi
There is a significant price difference between producing pre3ssed CD's and CD-R's, which can make small runs uneconomic - especially now that the price of blank CD-R's is so low. I haven't had cause to check recently, but a year or so ago, you needed a minimum run of 250 pressings before a duplicating plant would even take the job on, and it was more like 1,000 before it starts to make financial sense. I suspect that we will increasingly see CD-R's used for short-run, specialist recordings. Most modern CD players will recognise and play CD-R's - it's really only the first generation machines that were problematic. If you have a player that doesn't read them, then maybe it needs cleaning and setting up (or replacing, which may be cheaper!)
Every Blessing
Tony