MusingMuso
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Posts posted by MusingMuso
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I do think there is something to be said for using scaling to control the colume of remote mutation pitches in mixtures rather than voicing them more softly (e.g. at the toe). I find that mixtures work best when their members are all voiced in a similar manner, and that manner being one of good, solid strength. A soft rank among louder ranks in a chorus doesn't really integrate successfully.
(Quote)
This is certainly true in "classical" organ-building, tough even the differences in scaling
can be disturbing -narrower ranks will be richer in harmonics and interfere with higher-pitched ranks-.
As Mr Bicknell explains, a classic Diapason chorus is made with the same scaling and voicing troughout; if one wants to "soften" any part of it, suffice to build less duplications, or no duplication of it, and/or to place its pipes deeper in the organ-case.
This is exactly what you find in the baroque organs here in Belgium.
But in romantic organs, this may be the reverse. You may have a Mixture that's made
to work with different families of stops (no "pure" chorus), with one rank Lieblich Gedackt, the next Principal, then Gemshorn, then a Principal the kind of a Dulciana,
and the last say a Spitzflöte.
Examples are to be find in the (rare...) Walcker and Link organs in Germany
and Belgium.
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Mixtures have always been something of a vexed subject, and this may be illustrated by the difference of approach of (say) "Father" Willis and an organ-builder like Lewis. "Father" Willis used narrow scales and blew them hard, whereas Lewis used the almost exact opposite approach....both to good effect, it has to be said.
So perhaps the crux of the matter is not so much to do with "Topfer" scales, "straight line" choruses or progressive narrowing of higher pitches, but with the exact details of voicing.
I may not understand Mixtures very well...(who does?).....but from the evidence, it would appear that the question of "timbre" is at least as important as actual scaling; thus supporting Pierre's comment about overly-rich harmonics.
Pierre's point about the placing of a Mixture is a valid one, and the impact of the V rks Mixture at Armley is to do with the fact that it is sighted at the FRONT of the wind-chest rather than at the rear.
The best mixtures seem to be those which use similar scales to that of the chorus-work of which they are part, but voiced quick and dull by lowering the languids, and thus speaking in a vaguely "flutey" way. This is certainly supported by the Frans Casper Schnitger Mixtures at Alkmaar, which are very rounded-sounding things indeed when played alone.
As for Walcker mixtures, I cannot comment....we do not have too many of them in England, but there are numerous examples of Dulciana mixtures and String Cornet de Violes, which are probably our native equivalent.
If there is one thing which beggars belief, it is the way in which new mixtures are often quite unrelated to the chorus-work of many romantic organs, when attempts have been to brighten-up the end result. Rather than taking the voicing-clue from the existing treatment of the 2ft chorus-rank, certain organ-builders just seem to have slotted in badly matched new pipework with absolutely awful results.
In very dead-acoustics which do nothing much to take away the edge of brightly-voiced upperwork, Mixture-voicing becomes absolutely critical to the end result, and instead of sounding slightly inappropriate, may sound utterly offensive.
Therein lyeth a testimony to the 1960's "classical revival".
MM
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Maybe H.H. should have had his name changed, for Marketing reasons,
to Howelski.
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That's an hilarious thought!
The Roman Abramovic of English Church Music, but probably not first division, unlike Chelski FC.
MM
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Following on from the Hungarian organ-music thing, I'm sure that a few may be interested in some seriously good music which they can listen to, from the Czech Republic.
Would anyone believe a multiple keybaord concerto, for Piano, Organ and Harpsichord?
The music of Robert Mimra was unknown to me until I discovered the following:-
http://www.freemusic.cz/mimra/kapela_mp3.html
Be sure to listen to the two movements of the concerto, but especially to the melodic beauty of the Cantabile movement......someone is still writing good tunes!
MM
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I would also add Widor's 5th Symphony Toccata to your list. It's been flogged to death. But I listened today to some Hungarian organ music which for most part I found enjoyable.
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Thank-you Barry for that interesting link to the "Pipedreams" programme of Hungarian organ-music played by Istvan Ruppert; the football playing organist who has a hint of the Magyar Horseman about him!
http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/listings/0546/
I had previoulsy heard from an expert in America that contemporary Hungarian organ-music is worth hearing, and this seems to confirm it. They are not very good at promoting themselves it seems, and I have really struggled to investigate Hungarian music; unlike Czech music, which seems to be well organised and fairly well-known.
Istvan Ruppert is a very good organist; judging by the performances on the programme, and I always think it a pity that we don't hear more from this interesting part of the world which, after all, gave us Ferenc Liszt. It's also interesting that the Hungarian organ-building tradition included the firm established by Josef Angster, who had worked with Cavaille-Coll in Paris, and returned to his homeland to build quite French-sounding instruments.
Some of the larger Hungarian instruments are certainly worth hearing.
My brother, (who travels to Hungary quite often), tells me that the Hungarians are formidable academics, and get more Nobel awards than any other European nation.
MM
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But I like French baroque organ music (with all its fiddly trills and twiddles), especially if the instrument supports it.
There's not going to be any definitive answer to this question, of course, as we all have different tastes. To me, that is the main attraction of the organ: no two instruments are alike - such a great diversity of styles and sounds.
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Recitals are strange adventures; especially when there is no programme announcement prior to the event.
Looking back, I can recall a fair few. Perhaps top of my personal list would be Germani playing Reger at Leeds PC, Jane Parker-Smith suffering from a cold, yet able to tear into the Compton at Wakefield and play the Durufle "Toccata", Francis Jackson on form playing almost anything, anywhere, Ton Koopman as I sat grating my teeth one minute, and walking on clouds the next. Jos van der Kooy playing a wonderfully varied and romantic programme at Haarlem; including the Reger "Ein feste Burg."
Really great performances?
Jane Parker-Smith as mentioned, Jennifer Bate playing a superb Duccasse "Pastorale", Germani playing the big Reger B-A-C-H and most definitely Roger Fisher performing the Reubke at Chester during the IAO Congress there.
My point is, really outstanding music is comparitively rare, but when it happens, it lives with one for a very long time.
I don't really care what the programme is, but I do care about the performances.
In the recitals that I have given, I always tend to go for the "Heinz 57" variety pack....something deep, something frivolous, something to thrill and a nice tune or two for the old ladies....that sort of thing. However, with the players mentioned above, I would go to hear THEM.
How I regret never hearing Walcha play Bach at a live concert....that would have been wonderful.
Recitals are different things to different people, but if I have one gripe, it is the fact that GOOD 20th century music and contemporary music is seldom played unless it is Messaien or by some other Frenchman, dead or alive. I wish that people who are up to it searched out the best contemporary music; maybe some of that wonderful Czech music I'm always championing. We never get to hear these works because they're not French or German, and I for one am heartily fed-up with hearing Vierne's 1st and the Carillon de Westminster ad nauseum.
I know certain people like Howells, which is as good a reason as any for having a programme announcement. That way, I can arrive late or leave early or just nip out to the pub!
MM
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Yes, I do believe you're right! Sorry!
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No apology necessary, I should have checked myself. I just knew that I wasn't in the UK in 1982, but I went to the opening recital at Leeds given by Flor Peeters.
I was actually a bit surprised to learn that it was as late as 1972....I thought I was younger at the time.
MM
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"Will no-one rid us of this infernal subject?"
(Quote)
There is an excellent solution: not to read this thread.
In Democracy, any point of view may be expressed, but
it is not mandatory to read all the medias, you may care
only with the ones that express your own opinion. This
is what 99% of the people do.
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Be careful Pierre!
Captain Webb swam the channel, and they named a brand of matches after him.
MM
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So refined was the taste in England at the time that there was quite a lot of dislike of those "coarse and uncouth instruments" they had on the continent, like Haarlem, for example.
Wasn't the term "Werkprinzip" coined in the 1920s and 1930s at the beginning of the organ reform movement?
I love the simplicity of aesthetic the Werkprinzip idea brings and I love the concepts of it - like Peter Williams assertion of the Innsbruck Hofkircke illustrating the difference of pitch being more important (?) than tone or dynamic between divisions of the organ.
So, is the Jacobikircke werkprinzip? Or do we just see some elements of the style we invented in the 1920s which we can apply to something made in 1694?
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I'm sure Colin is quite right, that the term "werkprinzip" was invented by scholars such as Schweitzer to fill a gap. The scholarship was a double-edged sword of course, for although organ-architecture was restored, it also brought the slavish adherence to Schnitger and Silbermann and the big, bright sound.
If I have learned one thing during my many sojourns to Holland, it is the fact that baroque organs are as varied as the buildings in which they stand, and range from the sweetest, gentlest instruments to those which blow one's socks off. One of the tiniest sounds I ever heard was an 18th century chamber organ in a Dutch living-room, with black pipes and all the refinement of Green enclosed in an exquisite walnut cabinet.
Wasn't it Charles Burney who found the Bavo orgel not to his liking?
MM
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I'm very impressed with the look and feel of the new Tickells web site, but there's a distinct lack of information about what's planned for Worcester. A stop list would tell us something more.
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Will no-one rid us of this infernal subject?
I have paraffin, old newspapers and matches at the ready. Anyone got a key?
MM
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Even Lawrence Phelps (as opposite to my views as one can imagine, but very interesting nonetheless!) recognize this:
Pure neo-baroque idea. Since Görlitz, 1703, by Casparini, the Werkprinzip
was dead.
Poor old John Sutton! he is still at work since 1847, it seems, with his condamnation
of Green's organs as " musical snuff-boxes"...
Maybe it is time for him to retire, isn't it? exactly at the same time, Fétis condemned the late-baroque belgian organ in the same terms. But he was a great friend of Joseph Merklin...
My point is this one: whenever a builder has been praised in his time, there are reasons for that. Where the 18th-century's ladies and gentlemen so badly educated
in Britain as to take a music-box for a good organ?
Was Samuel Green a Lord nobody would have dared to say something against?
History repeats itself to an incredible degree; always the same balance movement.
So I suspect there is something Great with Green, G-G, Gasp! Gold. Like with all
these numerous late-baroque builders who simply happened to have worked to late, being superseded too early by romantic builders -who owe them nearly all-.
You cite Holzhey. I just told many about him on my forum. This builder summned
three traditions, melted togheter in a time-consuming process that started in 1703 and created the southern german baroque organ: the german, the italian and the french.
I ended like this: Now you take Holzhey, Vogler's theories plus the swellbox he found in Britain; mix strongly. What you get is Eberhardt Friedrich Walcker.
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Dare I argue with the late, great Lawrence Phelps?
Bavo is "werkprinzip" enough, but there are other late examples of the classic layout in Holland, especially by Schnitger's pupil Hinz, such as the Petruskerk at Leens, 1728, or the Hervormde Kerk, Midwolda, from 1772. Even as late as 1869, van Oeckelen was enlarging an organ by Lohman dating from 1828, which is virtually a baroque organ with the classic "werkprinzip" layout.
Of course, I know exactly what Lawrence Phelps was getting at, and I would generally agree that the absolute separation of "organs" in the "werkprinzip" sense, was certainly beginning to lose its' grip on organ design as an absolute principle.
I forget who it was who championed the organs of Green, but I know he was important in English Church Music.....anyone enlighten me?
Why was such refinement so highly regarded?
I think the answer may well come from the nature of church worship in 18th century England. There wasn't a healthy tradition of congregational singing, which came much later. The emphasis was on "well mannered" and orderly worship, where the main focus of activity was in the chancel, usually behind a stone screen. The numbers in the congregation would probably have been a couple of dozen souls at best. The emphasis was on refinement, the polite small-scale, gentlemen at prayer and rather musically precious in their tastes.....like musical cut-glass.
Organs didn't need to do much more than accompany a choir singing in a refined manner........I'm sure there are many who will put this in true perspective better than I am able or can recall accurately.
Seen in that context, Green fulfilled all that was required of him, and must therefore be considered a good organ-builder during his day, but one who had no place in the more robust worship of later generations.
The Holzhey sound is wonderful, and I quite agree with Pierre that, with a little imagination, it is certainly possible to link the sound to that of Walcker, but I would leave such detail to Pierre's better knowledge of the German tradition which took that particular course.
Throwing the debate open slightly, I wonder how Michael Engler fits into the overall scheme of things in the Silesian tradition. I am reliably informed that the one remaining masterpiece, at Olomouc in the Czech Republic, remains more or less as he built it, even though a further 50 registers have been tagged on to the main body of the Engler instrument by Rieger-Kloss. I've only heard recordings of this apparently wonderful instrument, but it is a mighty impressive sound when played as originally built by Engler from the original tracker console, or when played as a whole from the 5-manual electric console. I know of no other baroque organ, anywhere in the world, which combines romantic voices with genuine baroque ones so perfectly.
It's quite extraordinary to hear crystal clear "authentic" Bach one minute, and then Franck or Messaien the next, with a sound quality which does full justice to the French Romantic tradition.
Quite remarkable.....I feel sure there are lessons to be learned from this important and unique instrument. Someday, I shall get along to hear it. My brother was taken there by some Czech academics for a private performance and a viewing, and he is more into "Status Quo" and scientific things.....there's no justice in this world!! He wouldn't have had a clue as to what he was hearing!!
At least he enthused about reading the original papers of Copernicus, which would have been lost on me, I'm afraid.
MM
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The tradition is that English organs of that period were voiced quick and dull (no chiff). Pipe metal tends to be very thin. there was an interest in "sweetness" of sound. Green used tiny scales in his upperwork and the sound was distinctly unpowerful - more a box of whistles than thunder. Even an organ like St Mary at Hill produces little more power than a chamber organ. But a very refined sound.
Get a recording of Bermondsley to get an idea of what they sound like. Bishop 1829, which suffered a little alteration in 1877 and subsequent neglect before restoration to original state in 2003.
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Pierre is forever mentioning Green organs, but I wonder if he has ever heard one?
I don't know what condition the organ at Heaton Hall, Manchester is in these days, but when I heard it last, about twenty years ago, it was a very sweet but tiny sound which had very limited musical uses; and this in a room which is really a large living room in what was a stately home.
Early William Hill I have mentioned before, and one of the very best examples is that in the Methodist Church, Cambridge; originally housed in Eastbrook Chapel, Bradford, West Yorkshire (a city which once boasted two Anneesens organs!)
In its present home, the Hill organ sounds delightful and just nicely fills the building. In its' original home at Eastbrook Hall Chapel, it was absolutely puny; the chapel seating over 2,000 people and absolutely vast in dimensions. It really needed full organ most of the time just to accompany "Silent night!"
I think that this Hill organ was about the same period as the now destroyed instrument at Great George Street Congregational Church, Liverpool, which I played as a boy before it was torn out. I'm not sure if Eastbrook was a Hill/Gauntlett design, but if not, it certainly shared many of the same characteristics as the Liverpool instrument, and its' preservation was an inspired bit of organ conservation at Cambridge; largely, I believe, thanks to Dr Nicholas Thistlethwaite.
A couple of other points concerning slow Principals (Diapasons). T C Lewis did not slavishly copy Schulze, but he certainly admired Schulze above all others. In fact, Lewis had an ear equal to that of Schulze, but he never went quite so far as Schulze did with his voicing. I recall, somwhere in my memory banks, that Lewis just took the edge off the quints in the Mixtures, by arching the top lip slightly. In fact, a Lewis organ sounds quite different to a Schulze, but the pedigree is noticable, as indeed it was with the early organs of Charles Brindley and those voiced by Karl Schulze when he worked as head-voicer at Brindley & Foster after being an Edmund Schulze employee. For perhaps the most authentic Lewis sound, it is necessary to go and play/hear the organs at Studley Royal and the superlative Congregational Church at Ashton under Lyne, near Manchester, with its' wonderful hammer-beam roof and fabulous acoustic.
Of course, one organ stands out in my mind as being quite slow of speech; the Holzay organ of Rot-en-der-Rot, built just after the end of the baroque period proper. The 8ft Principals have a sombre, slow and very attractive quality, which is transformed as the 4ft Octave and upperwork are added.
I suspect that slow and fast are relative things, but the true baroque period is marked by the dynamic balances of the individual divisions; something which went out through the window with romantic instruments.
As for preferring a Walcker organ for Reger, I remain to be convinced. I think that an organ such as Haarlem is as near perfect for Reger as it is possible to get, not least becuase one can actually hear the counterpoint. I wonder if Reger would have agreed with me? Maybe not, but then, he drank far too much anyway and didn't play the organ too well!!
MM
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I am delighted to learn that the Maclean performance exists.
Further proof, were it needed, of the observation by Frederic Bayco that "Mac began where the rest of us left off" and an object lesson to some of the more precious young men (and they are generally men) who display a very supercilious attitude to the likes of Maclean, and Foort for what I suppose one would term dubious scholarship/inauthenticity
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An interesting point Brian.
I wonder how many people realise that Quentin Maclean was the only theatre organist ever to give the pre-award recital at the Royal College of Organists?
Pity they haven't invited Hector Olivera!
MM
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In romantic organs, the attack vary with each stop, like in the orchestra
each instrument has his own kind of attack.
In classical organ the attacks are homogeneous; if the tracker action
enables the organist to vary them, it is in nearly the same way for all
the stops that are played togheter, and are indeed feeded by the same valve
with a slider chest.
Depressing a key on a romantic organ actually starts a crescendo, the quickest
stops commencing first, the slower ones later.
Of course any "chiff" theirin would end up with a cacophony...
Listen again to a big pneumatic organ, especially with full registrations; the
attacks are actually waves. This is a "rolling" sound, which was named
"churchy roll". It has its charm and its place, perfectly suited to Wesley's
choral music (tough S-S Wesley himself may have rarely seen any pneumatic
organ), not for Bach of course.
To me any action system is good (provided the craftsmanship is there of course) if it corresponds to the style of the instrument it is build in.
And the choice should definitively be left to the organ builder, as a part of an artistic expression. Would anyone tell a painter which kind of material he must use?
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I think there are certain issues in Pierre's statements, which ought to be challenged.
Firstly, the fact that the Armley Schulze was converted to pneumatic action had a disastrous affect on certain pipes, which were close to over-blowing when the explosive collapse of the pneumatic motors unsettled the speech. The organ was originally voiced with Barker-Lever action.
Secondly, not all the stops on baroque organs speak quickly or at the same speed as others. Some of the Dutch reed basses are quite slow to join the living, whilst the Principals can be positively leisurely. Flutes, (often luscious ones) can be slow, but most are prompt enough. The upperwork is usually lightning quick in response, so I just cannot see how this "homogenous" quality exists except in the minds of those who think that "neo-baroque" equates with immediate response.
The 32ft octave of the pedal Principal at Haarlem seems to take about three seconds to settle into steady speech. The horizontally disposed 32ft Open Wood at Halifax PC takes about three weeks for the bottom notes to make their presence felt.
Digressing slightly, it is interesting that Jaques Lemmens, when asked what sort of action he liked best, stated that he liked a good tracker above all others.
I believe that a far more important consideration is not so much the speed of action response, because we can all play around delays. Blackburn is a classic example of a quite substantial time-delay, but one soon gets used to it. What MUST be avoided at all costs, are those pneumatic action components which work at different speeds; either from bass to treble, or between different windchests. This, more than anything else, destroys any chance of sucessful music-making. The same problem is apparent when bits of organ are scattered far and wide over a large area, when the aural feedback is confusing, to say the least.
MM
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Hi
Tracker has it's place - and is still, in my opinion, the best choice when circumstances allow.
Probably the best tracker action I've played on a large organ is the St. Martin in Girton College, Cambridge (a suspended action).
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I've played St.Bavo, Haarlem a few times, and it is just the most wonderful action.
It's when you look up and then to each side, that you realise just how far some of that action travels.
MM
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You could also try the Ton Koopman recordings - very sharp, crips, harsh maybe, lots of trills, I've had it with his style of organplaying but you might like it ...
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Ton Koopman fascinates me when I'm not climbing up a wall!
I went to a live performance of his some years ago in Holland, and for the Buxtehude, I was gratefully walking on air. For the Bach, I wanted to stone him to death.
He's certainly never predictable, but at least, one doesn't fall asleep at his concerts.
MM
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Dear MM,
I have come across McClean playing Rhapsody in Blue on the Organ but never heard before of the Grieg. Just out of interest does it actually exist? (Or is this another MM wind up ?) My technical knowledge of recording really extends no further than a vague knowledge that recording technology progressed considerably in advance of the technology for reproducing the sound, so that stereo was being experimented with well in advance of the second world war yet had to wait till the middle 50's to become a reality as far the public was concerned.
Thus I lack the expertise to enable me to know for sure whether what you assert occured was technically possible. OF course Mac survived until 1962 but I have never come across anything recorded after he moved to Canada, which is not to say it does not exist. If he were still to be active even during the 1950's then presumably it would have been possible for him to double track in that way.
Also I think I understand your point about the ability to "edit" or perhaps "compile" Welte Rolls, but I might have got this wrong too. I am correct in taking you to mean that they were not necessarily a reflection of a genuine live performance, am I not ?
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No wind up Brian!
The Qunetin Maclean recording of the Grieg does indeed exist....I have it.
It was recorded, so far as I recall, on the Compton at the Shepherd's Bush Theatre. I cannot verify the exact details, but I can tell you what was told to me about the recording, which may be accurate or not, as the case may be. If I can find the sleeve notes, I may be able to discover more. However, the recordings, I recall, as being done in the 30's.
Apparently, Maclean pre-recorded the orchestral abridged "backing" so that it would fit on a 78rpm master....presumably a wax master then converted into acetate. This would then be played back, and Maclean would add the Piano Solo part as appropriate. This has been suggested to me as the first example of a commercially available double-track recording, but I cannot verify this.
Thinking about this, the only clues he would have would be a clock in the silent sections and marks on the piano score....a daunting proposition. Obviously, with headphones, he would hear the accompanied piano parts, which would be easier.
The pre-recorded track of the orchestral part would then be mixed with the live recording of the piano addition, resulting in a new mixed master, from which subesquent pressings could be made.
Astonsihingly, this "double track" 78rpm disc, which I have on a cleaner-up CD version using the Cedar process, is about 99% accurate, with just the odd rush in the piano part as the orchestra looms. It really is quite an astonishing achievement by any standards, but then, he was taught by Straube and Reger!!
My personal Maclean favourite has to be his almost contrapuntal version of "The old man of the mountain," where he works in part of Peer Gynt. (Sp?)
Maybe I need to do a bit of research concerning Welte rolls, and I may be jumping to conclusions. Does anyone know how faithful the Lemare rolls are to the original performance?
If they are faithful, they are quite mind-blowingly brilliant!
MM
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Hi
There are 2 organs in the Bradford area that have digital additions. Addingham Parish Church has a substantial digital contribution
The other instrument is Bradford Cathedral, where a pipe Nave department was replaced by Bradford system electronics in 1990.
Again, I can't comment on why the digital section was installed, but the life-span is an issue that needs to be considered.
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I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would have wanted to retain that ghastly instrument at Addingham Parish Church, and then add second-division digital voices.
The cathedral at Bradford has had more than its' fair share of troubles, and in living memory, it was ever thus. The Nave Organ as was, was a nice little division which served a vital function. Due to the fact that the main organ is buried in a chamber which speaks out into the chancel only, any sound which made it beyond the crossing was always going to be ineffective. For the larger gathering, the nave organ drove the congregation along nicely.
"They" who had to be obeyed, decided that four wooden stilts were an obstruction at the West End, and wanted the free space; presumably for celestial dancers with fans, or somesuch.
Then there was the Ayatollah, who mercifully departed Bradford and went elsewhere to promote his personality cult and create mayhem.
As he surrounded himself with "yes men" (and women), one might well imagine that the removal of the nave organ was a mere formality at the time.
"Oh! Holy one, what a wonderful idea! Praise the Lord!"
MM
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Here Here, From a non player who listens to friends play and goes to recitals both at parish church level and cathedral/concert halls, I find that the odd mistake or what I think might be the wrong registration, brings home how I and others listen to the "clinical" world of recordings, with modern digital editing and hours of recording the same piece. How must it have been in the "good old days" when say Thalben Ball had to record a bit o' Bach in one take?
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Indeeed!
I so admire the old Lemare Welte-player rolls....accurate to a fault.
Then, what about Quentin Maclean "double-tracking" with wax and acetate, as he added the solo piano part to the organ arrangement he had recorded earlier of the orchestral score of the Grieg Piano Concerto.
Nerves of steel!
MM
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(Quote from Pierre Lauwers)
Would you wish Mr Mander to know you are a clown? I think the people who would not care would never surf here, simply because they aren't interested with organs.
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This board should not stoop into "clownism."
It's not long since we had a British Prime Minister who had a clown as a father.
I've been pondering the possibility that Stephen Cleobury may be "Leathered Lips,"
but decided (after a half-pint of beer), that such is not possible for a variety of reasons.
However, mistaken identity can take curious tiwsts and turns. When I was in America, I recall over-hearing a conversation between students. What I thought I heard was, "Yeah man! Marilyn Mason is a great musician."
When I added my two cent's worth and agreed that Dr Marilyn Mason was a very good lady musician, I received several, simultaneous psychopathic stares, before one of them replied, "Marilyn Manson is a guy!"
As for Nick Bennett's local reputation, I couldn't possibly comment, but it's probably much better than mine!
MM
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A kind of "up-to-date" thinking might be summarized as this:
Wind system, voicing techniques, organ disposition, the type
of action, and the repertoire, form a whole. If you change only
one of these aspects by another, you get something else.
Heavily nicked and abundant low-pitched flue pipes use an
amazing volume of wind. So if you play one of them or
ten of them makes a huge difference, hence a completely
different winding system.
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One of the earliest organ in the UK to use Schwimmers was the re-build at Leeds Town Hall.....a big, largely romantic instrument. That was back in the mid-60's, and I don't recall that the wind has ever been a problem since. (opened by Flor Peeters, for Pierre's information).
The trouble is, a number of organ-builders imitated the Schwimmer system, but got it wrong. I played an organ with very flatulant wind for many years, and various jerry-rigged attempts were made to cure the problems. The pan would counter-levitate against spring pressure from bent wire coil-springs, which due to the torque reaction, would go on their own Holy Pilgrimages. "Boing," would go one of the springs, and the whole thing sounded like an accordian until the springs were re-set.
Next idea.....nail them in place!
"Ping!" Went the nails......Holy Pilgrimages resumed as normal.
Second idea, put the springs in grooves.
"Boing!" Springs can be ever so mobile and athletic. They leapt over the convent wall, and off they went a pilgrimaging again.
Third idea.....change the coils for flat springs with teeth!
Great idea..... wind pressure soared by 1.5"wg and "baroque" took on a whole new character....sort of open-foot Wurlitzer baroque, with attitude.
Fourth idea...sack the organ-builder!
This was a huge success....the replacement chappies came along, put a couple of guides on the Schwimmer board, got the spring-rate right, and the organ sounded lovely.....well...apart from the pipes that had been so revoiced by the "cowboy" that they now no longer spoke at all on the original pressure.
I rectified these myself with GREAT CARE, and it took ages to get the whole thing back in perfect voice once more.
My conclusion is that Schwimmers are just dinky things, but don't get cheap replicas installed!!
MM
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May I suggest the use of this board be restricted to posters
under their true names?
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Anonymity has the big advantage that even the most outrageous opinion can be expressed without fear of personal repercussion, save for being booted off a chat-board.
Thus, when I have variously suggested that Czech music knocks spots off English music, or that the Dutch are more academic/stylistically accurate in performance than almost all-comers, I don't have to be tarred with a brush held by silly old traditional "Brits" sitting at Harrison consoles and wearing expressions as if chewing a wasp!
If the full truth be known, I don't like England very much at all.
The problem with any sort of discussion board or list, is that they always have resident "gurus" and shameless self-promoters, who will stop at nothing to assert their superiority. Take them apart, or perhaps just criticise their assumptions, and one soon becomes the enemy.
Having got booted off a certain American list due to the fact that I savaged one such guru very publically, I realised that anonymity has advantages. I never mentioned the fact that the particular lunatic in mind had sent me a number of offensive off-list e-mails, vast duplicated e-mails and other offensive asides personally, but under the cover of a different e-mail address. He continues to assert that he is the most knowledgeable organ-builder America has ever known, but has yet to produce anything beyond a few extension organs and didn't even know that Compton had introduced electronics into pipe-organs back in the 30's.
Lists and chat-boards are full of people like this, and frankly, I have trodden in better. That said, the Mander board seems to be pleasantly free of this sort of thing.
MM
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Well I cannot really comment, as I did not bother myself to treck down there to hear that organ. Bear in mind I am quite spoilt with Liverpool Cathedral and St Georges Hall, the latter which is the finest of the three. Pity there is not so much enthusiasm to have AP or SGH restored.
What exactly the justification is for restoring the RAH I don't know, it is not a fine sound at all. Having heard it prior to it's last rehash, I never have waxed lyrical about it. It always did sound "splashy" and "wirey" and does not have the "eclat" one would expect. Nor any majesty or grandness. It only has power, but that isn't anything to get excited about. So does a pneumatic drill. The 1926 work certainly did spoil it, and it must have been a nightmare to actually decide what to do with it tonally in the rebuild. It isn't musical, and on that I can comment, as it was apparently faithfully restored to it's previous sound. It will ever be a curiosity, and nothing more or less. It quite reminds me of an overgrown Harmonium. Fuzzy and way too brassy,and frankly quite vile. No ringing Diapasons, and no real musicality either. Sad, but at least there was a faithful restoration of what is there.
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I think a little fairness to all concerned would not go amiss. I'm sure that in an ideal world, with almost limitless means, Mander organs would have been more than happy to scrap the RAH organ and build anew, or at least restore it to the original Willis intention.
As I see it, there were three options. The organ either fell silent for all time, it could have been replaced by a super-duper digital or, as was the case, splendidly re-built so that what was there could at least be heard for what it was.
Always a child of its' time the moment Arthur Harrison got involved, the RAH organ may be brassy and loud, and perhaps it was never going to be the most musical of instruments whatever was done to it, but at least it is functioning, it is a real pipe-organ and for this we should be grateful.
It's interesting that Roffensis mentions Liverpool, and as he will know, the organ of St.George's Hall, in that fair city, suffered a little from the sort of Edwardian "super-charging" so beloved of the era, and many people now regard it as less good than the original; especially the big Tubas.
It's easy to be cynical, but considering the fact that individual benefactors seldom, if ever, write cheques to buy new organs these days, the re-build at the RAH is commendable and certainly better than the alternatives mentioned above.
MM
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It may be interesting to add some points:
-The Schulze british adventure was later than the Hill's
first achievements (1820-1830);
Now let us imagine what these "upper class" travellers might have seen while
touring Europe towards 1820 -not later of course because the revolution by Hill started in the 1820s-.
(snip)
The situation wasn't better in Germany, largely for the same reasons save there had been no revolution there but only a deep crisis with hundreds thousands people
in hunger state (etc...) from about 1800 up to 1820.
So it was not the best period for this kind of tourism I fear. Save St-Bavo and those southern german organs by Gabler etc and the Silbermann school in central Germany there was but little inspiration to be found in order to tell William what to do.
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I think I made the point about the "later" Schulze influence on British organ-building, but this is not, I suspect, the whole story. Nevertheless, finding the link is probably harder than finding the missing one!
I certainly cannot agree with Pierre about "upper class tourism," or his assumptions that apart from the Bavo organ, the only inspiration would possibly come from Silbermann and Gabler, for example.
The great fad in 18th century European society was to embark on some grand-tour of Europe....even Bach did a bit of that, and his sons more so. We find Italian musicians as far North as Kiel, and German musicians roaming around Italy. Mozart certainly trailed around Europe, and for some strange reason, seemed to take it all in his stride.
As far as the UK is concerned, she had a fifty year advantage in industrialisation and the exploitation of world markets; though others caught up eventually, and the Dutch Empire was certainly a powerful rival in terms of international marine-trade.
The links between Germany and England were especially strong, and trade would have been constant along the Hanseatic ports which included Lubeck and Hamburg.
The earliest German railway, starting at Leipzig, was a British endeavour by and large. The English royal-family were of German origin, and there was certainly a counter-reaction to Prince Albert's involvement in UK politics.
Knowing Holland well, as I do, I can think of dozens and dozens of inspirational instruments in Holland which do not carry the name Muller or Schnitger; some of them by Hinsz and others by such as Hagabeer. With Hamburg comes the name of Schnitger among others, so it is inconceivable that touring organists would not be aware of a very rich tradition indeed.
I doubt that the truth will ever be known, but I suspect that Mendelssohn was the most significant link between the continental tradition and the UK, and a few maybe went out to discover the truth of what he said.
Concerning William Hill, who groped around in the dark to some extent, he perhaps arrived at his destination by the best English method of doing things...instinct, trial and error.
MM
Organ Players
in General discussion
Posted
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Well I've personally been looking-forward to the day when I can stop at home and play the church-organ; happy to read the morning paper, drink freshly brewed coffee and be warm as toast while others shiver.
The computer age enables this, but thus far, no-one has come up with the goods.
I guess I'll just have to stay at home and the people at church will have to do without an organist.
Of course, by working such lines of communication effectively, one could be organist of a dozen churches at the same time. I would recommend my thesis on how to be a millionaire organist without leaving the house!
MM