MusingMuso
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Blackburn???
An MP3 please!
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I think Pierre will find the reeds to his liking!
Turn the speakers up, click on one of the two Blackburn mp3 extracts by David Briggs, and retire to the garden Pierre....you have been warned!
http://www.david-briggs.org.uk/rec.php
And some pretty pics also:-
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/setchell/blackburn.html
I'll just slink away now, and allow Pierre to enjoy a few quiet moments.......
Regards,
MM
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Here is a sample of a Physharmonika:
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That is equally gorgeous....I want it!
Actually, this will delight Pierre. There was an Aneesens organ from Belgium in St.Joseph's RC church, Bradford, which had an equally beautiful and haunting Clarinet to that quoted by Pierre.
I wonder if that too was a free-reed type?
Sadly, I almost wept when I learned that the instrument had been broken up and discarded....that Clarinet was priceless.
Regards,
MM
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And what would be the alternative?
To try to make of your splendid, unique organs "would-be-all-purpose"
organs that have failed everywhere else?
Better to have a beautiful theme park than a cemetary.
Best wishes,
Pierre Lauwers.
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We have some wonderful cemeteries in the UK....especially in Glasgow.
Out theme parks tend to be rubbish.
I'm sorry to keep quoting Blackburn Cathedral, but is there really anything it can't do justice to which doesn't belong to England circa 1920-1945?
I can live without most of that.
MM
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Now another sound sample.
Dandrieu played on one of the most beautiful and typical
french classic organ: St-Maximin du Var.
http://www.mporgues.com/mporguesMP3/dandrieu.mov
THAT is french sound.
You will hear true french Trompettes, Cromorne, the Grand jeu
(Tierces, Cornets, Bombardes, Trompettes and Clairons), and several
"Jeux de tierce" (Bourdon 8', Flûte 4', Nasard 2 2/3', Quarte de Nasard 2'
and Tierce 1 3/5') and Cornets (of course the same on one slide, but
of quite bigger scale than the Jeu de Tierce).
If anybody finds something like that in Britain by any british builder
(ancient or modern) he'll get a belgian fries portion. With Ketchup, Andalouse
or even Worcester sauce.
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Blackburn comes close.......do I get the chips?
Hold the Mayo and put the Worcester Sauce somewhere secure.
MM
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Here is a sound sample:
http://www.aeoline.de/Mp3/Klarinett_Rostock.mp3
What do you think?
Best wishes,
Pierre Lauwers.
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That is a gorgeous sound Pierre....I want one!
I also came across an example of a Physharmonica from somewhere in Poland, which sounded so utterly beautiful.
I'll try and find out the source.
MM
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Well that's a bit harsh. My own, admitedly old fashioned, view is that the requirements of a typical anglican cathedral organ are quite different from those of a concert hall - a distinction that seems to be lost on some of our cathedral organists and their advisors. Its a question of establishing what the primary purpose of the instrument is and then making sure that its fit for that purpose.
In most cases its primary purpose is not the accurate realisation of the works of J.S.Bach, Liszt, Vierne, Reger etc., but it is to be able sympathetically to accompany the music of Elgar, Howells, Stanford, Bairstow, Sumsion etc..
One test for a typical English cathedral organ would be whether the Elgar sonata can be successfully played on it.
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Like I said.......themepark!
MM
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To mention Blackburn, I don't think it's English, it is too classical to be, or should I just clarify it and say it's "English classical"? how's that? English classical? is that as in Boyce? hmm!! any takers?!
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I like to think of Blackburn as English Renaissance art, where clever men looked to the past and yet created something entirely new of lasting value.
MM
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As far as I am aware the term "braying party horns" has largely been used on this site recently with reference to the Liverpool Trompette Militaire and like stops. But surely the pipes for the Willis prototype in St Paul's were made by Moller and imported from the USA so perhaps we should give the credit for them to our American cousins ? Which particular builder's ophicleides have aroused your displeasure ? I have experienced a number of stops that went under that name and they sounded far from identical !
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If we are referring to the Trompette Militaire at St.Paul's, my understanding is that the thing is a standard Wurlitzer "English Horn" made with exponential brass resonators.....good isn't it?
I dislike most Ophicleides that I've ever come across; but especially dislike those great rumbling Willis monuments and the over-loud, over-blown Arthur Harrison ones which are usually extended from a Tuba.
Near to me is a big Hill, Norman & Beard with a barn-burning Trombone on 7" wind. It may be loud, but at least it's musical.
Why should anyone want higher than 7" pressure for a pedal reed?
If it isn't loud enough, then point them at people!
MM
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Dear MM,
I do not think I know a single french organ souding like an amplified harmonium !!!!!!
And I played some Cavaillés, but never got struck by lightening !!!!
I do think there are worse manners to die than playing Cavaillés !
Kind regards
PF Baron
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Well, I have played a Cavaille-Coll or two, and I once came within 7 metres of a lighting strike. I'm not sure which frightened me most!
For the sake of detante, I suppose I'd better qualify my outrageous statements.
Cavaille-Coll was a wonderful organ-builder of course, and did actually inspire a whole school of organ-composition. I don't think many organ-builders could make the same claim. He definitely WAS a genius, a very able engineer and tonally had a lot to say which was in accord with the age; just as Henry Willis did in the UK.
It's very interesting, but if we think of three great organ-building names from three different countries, namely Cavaille-Coll, Henry Willis and Edmund Schulze, they were strong-minded enough to actually dislike what each other created!!
I think we would all agree that any of the above three could produce a certain "wow" factor, and for very different reasons, but all suffer, in some way or another, from certain defects.
Schulze organs tend to be very, very chorus dominated, with very average sounding reeds. Henry Willis organs tend to have thin choruses and powerful but superb reeds, whilst Cavaille-Coll organs lack the elegant choruswork of more classical instruments, and get swamped by the ferocity of the reeds. Nevertheless, they're all wonderful organs of their type.
The ting that annoys me is this adulation of all things Arthur Harrison. If ever a builder produced a standard sound, and made every organ he touched fall into the same category, it was he. In many ways, the Arthur Harrison sound is wonderful, but it is a sound which is restricted far too much to the era in which it was created, and things have changed musically since then.
It just annoys me when people claim that the organs of Arthur Harrison are THE definitive type of British instrument, and yet fail to appreciate what has been created since; albeit with some birth-pangs along the way.
MM
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You may prefer this or that type, of course.
Dutch reeds aren't my cup of tea...Nor are
the Regals.
But all are interesting!
As for the polish Tubas, they could be very different from
the english ones.
I know of an organ in Arlon, Belgium, which has one...On
the stop tablet! what obtains on the soundboard is something
you'd call, say, Trompetta real magna mirabilis. On low wind
pressure of course.
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Dutch reeds vary a great deal, from the German style to the English sound at Haarlem and even the Cavaille-Coll inspired reeds of van Huevel and Adema.
Haarlem has a gorgeous Oboe, so everyone should feel at home there. The Great "Hoofdwerk" trumpets are good trumpets.....full bodied and blending, and so very English in effect. I always think the pedal reeds.....great rumbling Trombones....sound a bit like the best Hill reeds.
The Polish Tubas are...erm...Tubas. Quite big and full in tone. I haven't a clue what pressures they use, but they could certainly be used for C S Lang and Norman Cocker.
I tried playing the Cocker "en chamade" at Rotterdam Cathedral.....hysterical!! (I even ran out of notes because I failed to check the compass....ooops!)
MM
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One can successfully do Dyson in D at Lichfield, Liverpool or Kings, as indeed most cathedrals. Worcester is of course a typical "English" sound, whereas Gloucester clearly is not. Blackburn likewise is not a English sound. The tone of Diapasons has basically changed little from the 18th century onwards. Notwithstansding bigger scales, and a more demanding repertoire requiring bigger stop lists, the Diapason remains at the core of England. Few organs dispense with them, and do so at their peril. So, what is English, what is not?
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In other words, we are turning "English Cathedral Music" into a theme park and a tourist attraction.
Who says that Blackburn isn't an English sound?
The Great chorus is very English in character, whilst the reeds are generally quite splashy, but certainly not flat-out mad Frenchman in style. The Positiv is basically German in style, but blends as well as asserts itself.
If it isn't English, what is it? Let's do a questionnaire!
The tone of Diapasons has changed radically from the 18th century, but they are now probably being made nearer to what they were then, rather than what they became after 1890 or so.....that is a GOOD THING.
Nothing is English at all which hasn't been done before by others; save for fat Trombas, ghastly pedal Ophicleides and braying party-horns.
MM
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It would be interesting if they built an authentic pipe organ with some purely digital sounds in it as well. (NOT toaster imitations of athentic pipe organ sounds). I wonder if it's ever been really carried through ever and in a professional and thoughtful manner?
Pure traditional organ tone mixed with synth sounds could in theory produce some new and interesting effects.
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Yes, I've argued this before.
I would love to have a digital Glass Harmonica.....imagine that with the celestes.
MM
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In another overloaded -to say the least- thread, we came to discuss about
what distinguishes the english chorus reed stops from the others.
This is so interesting a matter it may deserve a discussion here.
The continental organists barely know the british reeds, while the
english may not realize the gulf that obtains between english
and continental reeds.
Here is a file from Laukhuff where you'll find different shallot types illustrated:
french, german and english (the english on page 26):
http://www.laukhuff.de/kapitel/12.pdf
The second difference lie with the pressures, that are considerably higher
for the british reeds: 200-300mm or higher (500mm for the Tuba), while
the germans rarely exceed 100mm, the french 120mm.
These differences explain the very different harmonic development in british reeds
compared to continental ones.
Scales and materials, on the other hands, are about the same.
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I don't want to piddle on anyone's fireworks, but why does everyone ignore those simply gorgeous reeds found in the Netherlands?
Perhaps it's just me, but I think the best chorus reeds I've heard are on the organ at St.Bavo......they sound so....erm....old English.
Another fascinating fact.....they seem to be putting big Tubas on new Polish organs; so you know where to go on holiday next year if you like that sort of thing.
Which continent had we in mind Pierre?
MM
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Take any german, french or belgian Trumpet, Clairon, Bombarde, Posaune; they all
would have been classified by Bonavia-Hunt as "free toned", while the Willis chorus reeds he named the "normal" one.
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Am I the only person to think that Bonavia-Hunt was as mad as a March Hare?
Anyone who could regard Willis reeds as "normal" had to be barking.
Before Willis, and long before Arthur Harrison came along and ruined even his work, there were different reeds entirely....full bodied, blending reeds superior to almost anything else anywhere....think Thomas Hill; think H, N & B and the Rundle reed-voicing dynasty.
As for French reeds, I just can't imagine why anyone would want to play an organ which sounds like a hugely amplified harmonium when everything is drawn.
I expect that the next most intense sensation after playing a large Cavaille-Coll is to be struck by lightning....and I don't fancy that either!
MM
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Are there any enlightened organ builders out there who could perhaps invent some new "musical" organ stops which could be developed to a chorus? A completely new pipe-organ sound, although preferably not drawing on sitars, bongos and the like.
I may be wrong but I havn't heard of a single and significantly different family of stops having been invented for quite a number of years.
Anyone wish to correct me?
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I once did a spec which included a "Celtic Horn" because I couldn't decide what the best pedal reed might be.
I'm not sure that it would be suitable as a chorus register, because the re-creation of one based on archeological remains was a bit rough and ready in tonal quality.
I have this idea for a chorus of Diaphonic-Dulcianas, where the sound emerges from a 10mm drilling in the otherwise closed-cap. I don't expect it to catch on!
MM
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Of course this was changed with this aim; the result, however, isn't french at
all. (By the way, you won't encounter any Posaune in France save in the
german and luxembourgish-speaking areas of Alsace and Lorraine).
The result is, as Roffensis pointed out, 100% british.
Of course the organ would sound more H&H with the Trombas, no doubt.
But we'd better think of a rescue of the whole thing first!
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The "W" word seems to have crept back into use again!
I'm slightly bemused by the references to the "English" sound. What exactly IS the "English sound?"
Would it be post-Snetzler (a Swiss who built in English/Italian style), the extreme low-pressure refinement of Samuel Green, the noble gravitas of Wm.Hill, the powerful flue choruses of Charles Brindley, the Schulze-like qualities of T C Lewis, the storming reeds and emaciated diapasons of Fr.Willis, the superbly crafted extention organs of John Compton with their high-pressure flues and synthetic 32ft reeds, the heavy tones of Rushworth & Dreaper or the "screech-owl" chorus-work of the 60's?
They've all been, or still are to be heard in many of our largest ecclesiastical settings, and they're as varied as they are different.
Only Arthur Harrison, ( undoubtedly a truly magnificent organ-builder) could make them all sound the same if he came to re-building them. Worse still, there are very, very few examples of a cathedral organ entirely from the hand of Arthur Harrison....Redcliffe is possibly the least altered example of his own work from scratch.
Seen in this light, Arthur Harrison was an organ-wrecker!
How can...nay...how dare anyone claim that the Arthur Harrison sound is "typically English," when it covers only a fraction of the time-scale of British organ-building?
With all due respect to Mander organs, I would love to hear St.Ignatius Loyola, NY, which seems to have wowed people over there, but I have to site good examples from other organ-builders to make the next point.
For those who want noble diapasons and a "English sound," what about St.Mary-the-Great, Cambridge....a truly fine organ, devoid of French reeds or German thinness of tone, yet entirely appropriate for a huge amount of repertoire AND for accompaniment.
I haven't heard Southwell in the flesh, so I will pass this by. However, Blackburn is a wonderful example of what CAN happen when a British organ-builder is not aping the style of someone else. With French, German and English input, here is a unique British-style instrument, which IMHO is tonally superior to almost ANYTHING that Cavaille-Coll built; better balanced, more thrilling and altogether clearer.
I know of just one other instrument which can do what Blackburn does, but I expect no-one will ever have heard it....St.Moritz, Olomouc in the Czech Republic.
Being a Rieger-Kloss re-build from the communist era, I hesitate to vouch for the quality of the mechanics and electrics, but tonally, this is one of the greatest organs in the world, at the core of which is a genuine baroque instrument by Engler. To this magnificent core has been added a wealth of expressive voices; to the extent that it is a fantastic organ for Cesar Franck AND Bach, and the available recordings of Messaien and Alain bear testimony to this.
The interesting thing is, the sound is on the same lines as Blackburn, but altogether different at the same time; being less "French" in the reed department. For anyone who is in the market for a new "English" cathedral sound, the Olomouc instrument could certainly serve as an inspiration and a starting point.
Prague ain't far by air, and they have trains!
MM
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I was fortunate enough to learn to play the organ on a 1911 4-manual Harrison where the Swell octave coupler was frequently used for full swell. I had thought this was just a one off, and so was suprised to read that there was the need for it at the Abbey. Maybe there are other Harrison organs out there where it is necessary/desirable to use the Swell octave coupler?
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Almost all the bigger Arthur Harrison organs have a splendid quint mixture on the Swell and usually a Harmonics with the Septieme silenced on the Great. As the Harmonics tend towards the useless end of musical life, and the Great organs are so very loud, the octave coupler on the Swell adds a degree of balance to the Great chorus. However, it isn't just the Mixture. The usual thing is to have the octave of the 4ft, 2ft, Mixture AND reeds coupled through, which sounds magnificent. The fact that notes drop out left, right and centre, is not really a handicap, due to the huge power of the Great chorus, and the fact that the 2ft is quite bold in its' own rights.
Even for Bach, many organists favour the use of the Swell flues with octave coupler, plus the 4ft Clarion, which seems to do the trick when coupled to the Great organ.
Perhaps the great sadness is that there has never been a worthier organ-builder than Arthur Harrison, but he was quite badly advised IMHO, and ended up being led down a bit of a blind-alley.
That stated, you cannot fail to admire what Arthur Harrison did.
MM
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As for Worcester, surely leaving the diaphones on it would be novel if nothing else. I doubt they'd be used much for services, and probably quite rightly, although they are indeed a curious quirk which would actually do Worcester more favours, should someone wish to hear these novel things used out of service time. A good recital puller possibly?
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Has anyone on this board ever heard a diaphone, or used one in anger, I wonder?
I have, so I can speak from experience.
The sound is almost pure fundamental, and of immense power, unless it is a milder type such as the Wurlitzer Diaphonic Diapason. Even the 32ft Diaphone by Compton at Hull City Hall is quite a revolting sound, which argues with the hugely powerful 16ft Tuba extension.
The proper place for a Diaphone is where they are normally found.....on a cinema organ, where they blend perfectly with the Tibia Choruses and imitative orchestral sounds, but even then, they can really shake the cobwebs off the chamber walls.
They deserve to be where I suggested; in Manchester, and the Hope-Jones heritage museum, where the man, his work and his considerable genius are best represented in the right context.
MM
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(Quote)
Don't be angry, but from an historian's point of view, this is normal.
As a music lover, I prefer the two firsts, but this is irrelevant as long
as the aim is to understand the facts.
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The historian A J P Taylor was right.
"History is bunk!"
MM
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....With which I would disagree.
The best way to avoid a new fashion -or craze?- would be to keep the
existing Diaphones. Otherwise we shall pass twenty years to reconstitute
them correctly, after having imponed bad copies everywhere...
And round and round goes the history!
Pierre
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Craze.....now there's good word!
I think I would prefer to hear the "crazy frog" song than a diaphone in full flight on a supposedly classical instrument. I wonder if a "bad copy" of something already bad, would make it a better copy than the original?
Quite how anyone could equate Thynne, Arthur Harrison and Hope-Jones in the same phrase, completely escapes me.
Musically, there is not the slightest justification for wanting to re-create diaphones or anything else by Hope Jones, unless the repertoire is restricted to East Hope Martin's "Evensong." Nothing was ever written for that style of instrument that hasn't since been lost, dumped or given away to Oxfam shops.
I begin to wonder whether we are now talking antiquity for it's own sake, rather than for the sake of music. Without the slightest musical justification, isn't it better to let the Hope-Jones remains go to a dedicated museum rather than be retained as a musical carbuncle in a cathedral organ of already dubious origins?
It's quite interesting that so much time and energy should be expounded on a subject which has no relevance whatsoever and never will have. The "Orchestral Organ" was a freak of music, and frankly, even fair-organs had better chorus-work!! Cinema organs at least had mutations and things which went up to 1.3/5th pitch (sometimes to 1ft), and they can actually be teased into making very Cavaille-Coll-like sounds with a bit of imagination and artistic-licence.
MM
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One has to learn to refer to it as the typical Harrison sound, it most certainly is not in any way H.J. and no restoration could ever regain that style, it has gone, and went a very long time ago. In 1925 it was a case of making it into a cathedral organ of worth rather than a curiosity. So please, let's stop the Hope Jones nametag, it isn't H.J.
(Snip)
The tutti is beyond doubt one of our most beautiful cathedral sounds, and it seems to me we are just missing the real point and reason in the whole saga.......whim.
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So it's a mongrel then?
To the sea-bed with it!
All this talk of Robert Hope-Jones and heritage has thus far failed to mention two interesting facts. Firstly, his great grandson, Mr Robert Hope-Jones, is very much alive and kicking and involved with organ-building. Secondly, the Lancaster Theatre Organ Trust are in the process of establishing the Manchester based Hope-Jones heritage centre, and any remaining examples of Robert Hope-Jones work would be very welcome there........like those redundant diaphones at Worcester.
Better still, I have pictures for you............including one of the current Robert Hope-Jones, who bears a certain resemblence to H-J the elder.
Try the following link:-
http://theatreorgans.com/lancast/
Then go to the tab marked Heritage.
MM
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@ MM: Mind the bottom of the sea solution, tough. A 32' Diaphone could make
a fairly frightfull Vox Balenae, isn't it?
Now suppose a shark named Max decides to improvise a little on it. What do you think could happen to the coasts less than 1,000 Miles away?
Would you like to take responsibility for that?
Pierre
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I've just discovered that the diaphones are Hope-Jones.
There was I thinking Davy Jones....sorry about that!
I take no responsbility for any possible tsunamis off the coasts of Europe.
MM
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I think it would be hard to dispute that the kind of churches which are flourishing are those which use bands, and the type of music not associated with the organ. (snip)
The younger generation (and many of the older generation now), as a whole would rather hear music along the lines of Scissor Sisters or Usher, - music which is not related to the organ at all. Pop music as a mainstream has taken over, that's the reality. (snip)
Can you imagine a group of scallies going to an organ recital rather than down the boozer?
Afterall entertainment styles have largely changed in society since victorian times and the wurlitzer lost it's role in the 1920's. The pipe organ has remained trailing behind along with the organists, still in use at Blackpool. Lovely as it is...how many POTENTIAL young organists go ballroom dancing I ask or into a cathedral? Is it surprising that relatively few think of learning it? - it's so uncool!!
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This may not seem like the place to discuss religious or sociological matters, but of course, the whole future of organ-music and organ-building are connected with them.
Leathered-lips-(inc?) made an interesting statement, which I will repeat:-
"Can you imagine a group of scallies going to an organ recital rather than down the boozer?"
Well, I could tell you a story....in fact I will.
I was once performing at a quite important London venue, and I mentioned this to a young man I knew at the time, who had a "new age" hairstyle flopping down one side of his head. He told me he'd love to be there to hear the music.
"Why not turn the pages for me?" I suggested
"Cool! Should I put my hair up or down?" He asked.
I thought for a moment, then broke into a mischievous grin as I replied, "Up!"
So it was, a certain London church was treated to the sight of a young new-age punk turning the pages, complete with Mohican!!
I don't find any great prejudice against me when I mention that I'm a classical musician to the many "Scallies and Chavs" with whom I come into contact. Maybe the reason is that I can relate to THEIR world quite easily; and by the way, I have the "Scissors Sisters" CD!!
Another interesting snippet from 'Leathered-Lips' is worthy of repetition:-
"Let's face it there are some clever and very resourceful pop writers out there who could do a far better job than "Switched on Bach".
Actually, there are some brilliant arrangers and composers connected with pop-music, who may do it for the money, but who do it terribly well nevertheless.
I now fly off at an obtuse angle.........
I often meet a LOT of young people from all over the planet; among whom are many young Indians, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians. I also pop across to Holland quite often, and talk to people of all ages there. It's an interesting fact of life, that even the Indians know something about organs and organ-music, and a young Pole (possibly about age 20) not only happily informed me where the largest organ in Poland was, he also mentioned the moving life-size figures in the organ-case at Oliwa Katedral in Gdansk!! (He works in a distribution warehouse!!)
The Dutch of all ages have a real enthusiasm for the organ, and I recall a mini-swarm of children clamouring around me at Rotterdam Cathedral wanting to see the console. I took the time and trouble to take them up four at a time.
I had an uncle who sang quite well. He was something of a local celebrity, and toured around the northern "Messiah" circuit as a bass soloist; singing alongside the likes of Kathleen Ferrier and Isobelle Bailey. When the BBC asked him to turn professional, he replied, "Nay lad, I can't abandon t'cows and t'milk round."
He remained a farmer to his dying days.
Doesn't it come down to COMMUNICATION?
This is why I like a lot of contemporary Czech music.....folk rhythms and high intellect combined.
Liking people for what they ARE rather than what we would want them to be is not difficult, and it's where communication starts. Talk to a young Pole about Poland, and demonstrate that you know something about the place....then sit back and watch them light up as they struggle to communicate in English with boundless enthusiasm. It's all about bridge-building......
Organists, as a broad group of people, bore me to death quite frankly when they're not playing the organ, and the same goes for most people connected with "church."
Carlo Curley tells the story of going along to play the organ at the RAH, and when he got there, a pop-group (Status Quo?) were trying to destroy the building as they practised for a gig. When they finished, and started to collect their things, Carlo went to the organ, switched on and flicked the far-right general piston.
He almost blew the pop group and their equipment out of the building, and they gaped in disbelief.
Carlo got off the organ and shouted, "Now THAT'S organ-power!"
IT ISN'T DIFFICULT......GO AND COMMUNICATE!!
By the way, the Cinema/Theatre organ came into its' own AFTER the talking films arrived, when organists became superstar entertainers earning pop-star money. The peak was during the war-years in this country, and the talent enormous....Quentin Maclean studied organ with Karl Straube and composition with Max Reger!!
Sid Torch became a brilliant BBC arranger after giving up the theatre organ.
MM
(I've listened to the track "Filthy/Gorgeous" by the "Scissors Sisters" and a Bach Trio Sonata slow-movement played on an 18th century Stumm whilst writing this. How's that for eclecticism?)
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Hi
For most of its history, the Hristian church had no use whatsoever for pipe organs!
Every Blessing
Tony
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Now it would seem that no-one has any use whatsoever for the Christian Church.
So much for throwing the organs out and trying to make church more entertaining!
MM
Worcester Cathedral's Organ
in The Organ
Posted