MusingMuso
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Yes .....then we'd have two good French jobs here at least, along with the gem at Farnborough, and not forgetting the Gern in London, Knightsbrige is it??? Priory recorded it anyhow.
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Don't forget the little Cavaille-Coll gem at St.Gabriel's, Blackburn!
MM
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When you fire up, does she go "brrrrrrrrrrrrrr", "whhurrrrrrr", or other?
Opinions please.
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I kid you not, but I once played an awful organ by Driver & Haigh which had a chamber mounted blower close to the chancel ceiling. When it was switched on, it sounded for all the world like a loo being flushed, but much louder.
Of course, a flick of the switch on the word "Holy" got the timing just right, so it went:-
"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy WHOOSH"
It seemed always to be the perfect reflection on the utter rubbish the vicar preached each Sunday, and I was young.
However, for all those who are undisputed anoraks, like those who record train noises, THIS is the one to hear:-
http://www.acchos.org/html/gallery.html
Go to gallery and scroll down to the blower sounds....all 600HP of them, stirring into life at the Atlantic City Auditorium, New Jersey, USA.
MM
PS: I have Amtrak Diesel Loco and Staton Island ferry noises on tape.
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Remove the Marcussen to Sheffield Cathedral, thus solving their need for a new instrument, and replace it with the Christie from the Odeon, Marble Arch (which is still languishing in store somewhere). Being a Christie there should be family compatibility with HNB pipework from the same era of which there must be some knocking around somewhere from redundant churches which could be used to augment the specification. Now that would be thinking outside the box!
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Ah Brian!
Your thoughts have been comfortably preceded by the Lancaster Theatre Organ Trust (LTOT), who "just happen to have" a large Wurlitzer in need of a good home, formerly installed at the Granada Studios, Manchester.
Of course, anyone with any sense, would have re-sited the Cavaille-Coll in the Town Hall in the Bridgewater Hall, and restored it to its' former glory; not least by getting rid of the Jardine pipework.
So where does that leave us?
Let's see....Town Hall to Bridgewater Hall, Bridgewater Hall to Sheffield, Wurlitzer to Town Hall....leaving...crumbs
a spare Willis/Mander for free! 
MM
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That's the one!
MM
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I like the above explanation for the apparent failure of the Bridgewater Hall Organ to be entirely satisfying as it has the advantage of freeing almost everyone from blame EXCEPT the individual who decided to bring together a square peg and a round hole, without ensuring that one or the other could change its configuration so as to fit with the other!
It is somewhat jaw dropping to find MM apparently advocating the merits of a Wurlitzer when he has gone on record with his dislike of the "pervading English Organ style" and (by implication) his preference for a more contrapuntal style of instrument. However, Emerson said that a "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" and MM never actually expressly stated he liked wurlitzers, only that they were the only type of organ capable of performing to advantage in such an environment. Also, whilst your average 10-15 rank Wurlitzer is even less able to perform contrapuntal music than a bog standard early 20th century English organ, some of the bigger American installations like Organ Stop Pizza and San Filippo seem to me to do it as least as well, with the added advantage that they can also do The Dam Buster's march or In a Clock Store or the Policeman's Holiday infinitely better.
Since today is the day for outrageous suggestions, here is one even more far fetched. Remove the Marcussen to Sheffield Cathedral, thus solving their need for a new instrument, and replace it with the Christie from the Odeon, Marble Arch (which is still languishing in store somewhere). Being a Christie there should be family compatibility with HNB pipework from the same era of which there must be some knocking around somewhere from redundant churches which could be used to augment the specification. Now that would be thinking outside the box!
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For the record
I absolutely adore theatre organs, to the point that I have 
actually played one in concert a few times and given talks about them.As for contrapuntal music, how about a Bach Trio Sonata, using Kinura 8ft and Flute 4ft for the left hand, Chrysoglot and Viole 8ft for the RH and Pedal Cello 8ft?
Clear as .....would you believe...a bell?
For the record again, a Wurlitzer organ was just about the only thing on which it was possible to play baroque French music with a fair degree of success...all those derived mutations and splashy trumpets. Also, they have lots of higher-pitched derivations, unlike the H-J organs on which the concept was based.
Further for the record, the chances of resuing the remains of the Mable Arch Christie, are almost zilch. The thing was stored in a barn, and the owner has never allowed anyone to rescue it and restore it.
Now to the serious point of what I was writing about.
Anyone who has heard or played (as I have) the Marcussen (Flentrop?) organ of "De Doelen" concert hall in Rotterdam, would know that it sounds very thin. It was installed not long after the RFH; the latter being a far better sounding instrument. (It's so long ago, I can't recall who made it!)
However, in many respects, the Colston Hall organ is actually a better success story than either of the above two examples, but why?
The simple fact is, with modern acoustic-engineering favouring speech, AND musical "bloom," it is the mid-frequencies which get gobbled up quickly, and because the auditoriums contain absorbent soft-furnishings, the interior surfaces tend to be reflective hard-wood panelled or reflective fibre. Thus, you end up with a type of resonance which really is unnatural, but which nevertheless is a good compromise.
The Wurlitzer organ, with its' enormous mid-range punch and restrained trebles, was actually designed for a similar type of acoustic.
The lesson probably is, that the MODERN concert hall requires a different approach to that of a modern church-organ; perhaps favouring proper English Diapason and reed-tone as at Colston Hall, but without the ponderous qualities of an Arthur Harrison instrument. In other words, as baroque as you like, but essentially English in character, with the sort of mid-range punch we once knew so well.
I hesitate to get into detail, not being an organ builder, but I wonder if a new type of mixed-scaling isn't appropriate, where the scale-progressions favour mid-frequencies, but tail off above and below more rapidly than they would with an instrument installed in a traditional church.
I suppose the question which we need to ask, is whether that is possible without recourse to heavy pressures and deep nicking. The Klais at Birmingham is better than most, and I suspect that the acoustic problem has been addressed. Whether that has been entirely successful remains subjective.
Of one thing I am sure....ALL organ-builders need to read about acoustic-engineering and the characteristics of modern building materials, which have a nunmber of very specific characteristics.
MM
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Don't sideline the organ. Bring it into the mainstream.
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Absolutely spot-on Anthony!
I seldom read a posting with which I utterly agree, but this was one of them.
This is what fascinates me about Czech music, because those who compose for organ ARE mainstream or at least multi-genre, and that must be a good thing.
MM
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Which brings us onto the more important question of blower switches. How many of us have a Watkins and Watson I wonder?
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Sorry! Ignition key and a totally silent Laukhauf on which you could rest a cup of tea without spilling it.
MM
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Or, indeedy, a "don't drop the coffin" fly on the wall thing about Mander's works?
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They make coffins?
MM
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The Elgar Sonata could be played on the organ of the Bavokerk, Haarlem, albeit with a few compromises.'
(Quote)
....As well as Bach at Armley.
Do we need St-Bavo everywhere?
(That was indeed on the way up to not so many time ago).
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Bavo is a unique combination of organ, building and the history of its' metamorphosis.
I can't think of any other organ in the world which comes close to it tonally, but St.Moritz, Olomouc, CZ has many of the same qualities.
Bach at Armley.....yes I've done that in recital....very LOUD.
MM
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With so many replies, I'll refrain from addressing any particular one or we could be here all year.
Firstly, the "contrapuntal nature of the instrument" is as valid a statement for a good romantic organ as it is for a baroque instrument. Many romantic composers wrote fine fugues.....Guilmant, Liszt, Reger, Elgar, Dupre, Walton and all the rest. So counterpoint never went out of fashion, and the very best romantic organs were still quite capable of delivering a fair degree of the contrapuntal clarity required, and orchestras always could.
The suggestion that the Elgar Sonata could not be performed convincingly at Bridgewater Hall is very true. However, permit me to make what may sound like an outrageous statement.
'The Elgar Sonata could be played on the organ of the Bavokerk, Haarlem, albeit with a few compromises.'
On that particular instrument I've heard Bridge, Stamford and S S Wesley for example, but never Parry, Bairstow or Howells, whilst it is a perfect vehicle for the music of Reger despite paper evidence to the contrary.
I don't think I need to hesitate on our organ-building host's discussion board, when I state that Marcussen are one of the most respected organ-builders in the world, with quite a pedigree.
So why should an essentially baroque organ work for romantic repertoire, yet a modern concert-hall organ built by a builder who created one of the finest sounds in the world, be seen to fall short of complete satisfaction?
Let's blame someone! Is it the consultant, the organ-builder or the voicer(s)?
It's surely got to be one of them?
WRONG!!
The problem starts right at the beginning, when much of the instrument was but a pile of wood in the builder's yard, and the plans for the hall were on the drawing-board of the architect.
A modern concert-hall is a designer concept from the start....actually quite an unnatural one. The modern materials used have very different acoustic properties to anything used before about 1950. As time has gone on, newer materials have come onto the market, with special fire-retardent properties, special acoustic absorbency characteristics, special thermal properties, special load-bearing properties....and so on. Long gone are the days of wood, glass and stone, in spite of appearances and acres of veneer.
I spent quite some time investigating the acoustic-engineering of modern concert-halls, which almost universally, are geared towards a combination of spoken clarity and musical "bloom." The two are almost incompatible in large buildings, as a large, resonant cathedral demonstrates conclusively. To achieve the all-purpose concert hall, it is ncessary to direct and focus sound in particular ways, and to use acoustically absorbent and non-absorbent materials in combination.
By and large, these designs are adequate, but only once in a while is something like the Symphony Hall, Birmingham achieved. Nevertheless, even the Birmingham hall has to rely on "resonance chambers" distributed around the walls of the building.
It is a feature of many modern materials, that they reflect high frequencies successfully and often do not kill low frequencies, but they often kill mid-frequencies in a way that is completely alien to "natural" materials.
So the Bridgewater Hall instrument, whilst sounding magnificent close-up, actually starts to sound distant and lacking in body only a few metres away.
However, there IS a type of organ designed for this type of acoustic, and which sounds exactly right. It's called a Wurlitzer Theatre Organ!!
Hey ho! Back to the Diaphones!
Discuss!
MM
PS: Will this thread never end....can we make a thousand posts?
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I think this goes some of the way to explaining the contrast between the spiritual journey of JSB and the apparent lack of one by the Howells generation.
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Well I think much (but by no means all) of the evidence points to the fact that British composers looked backwards rather than outwards....Vaughan-Williams, Ireland and perhaps even the brilliant Walton for example. Even someone as inventive as Percy Whitlock was greatly influenced by Delius, as were many of the Brit composers....there's nothing wrong with that. The unfortunate thing is that they perpetuated a sort of rambling aproach to harmony, born of extreme chromaticism, at a time when other countries were much bolder.
That said, some very good things were written, and Healey-Willan is one who springs to mind, whlst the inimitable Holst and the genius of Walton performed miracles.
On the plus side, we at least managed to avoid the worst aspects of 12-tone and experimental music, so wonderfully lampooned by Gerard Hoffnung:-
"No longer does ze self-respecting German composer use ze pen and paper and ze fork-in-tune. Instead he uses ze mazematical slippy-rule etc."
My objection to the pervading English organ style, is that it completely re-invents the organ by turning its' back on the essentially contrapuntal nature of the instrument.
Thank heavens for the music of Hindemith and Dupre.
Anyway, I jyst realised that Howells came from Gloucester rather than Worcester, so we have to think of a new title for the H.O.W.E.L.L.S support group. I recommend it should now stand for "Howell's organ works - enabling latent loathing support."
MM
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[Actually, in my own defence, I think I was referring to spiritual travel rather than actual travel, even though Bach went hiking around Northern Europe.
HI MM,
Sorry that the post to which the above is a response was done in a bit of a rush. I did realise that you meant both, but with the emphasis on the questing mind rather than the wandering body. However, I think (and ought to have stated) that a number of them did make a spiritual journey : given the experiences to which they were subjected it would be incredible if they had not. But spiritual journeys are no more guaranteed than physical journeys to always terminate in sunlit uplands. In other words, we have not only to account for the physically lost (like Butterworth) but the mentally lost (like Ivor Gurney). For at least some of the Howells generation, I would argue, the spiritual journey they went on was a destructive rather than a productive one like JSBs, and thus unlikely to lead to a productive outcome. And whilst the myth of a lost generation has now been largely exploded, there has to have been some factual basis to allow the myth to grow up in the first place. So we have a certain possibility, indeed a probability, that a significant (but unquantifiable) amount of British (and French and German) talent was cut down before it could fully blossom. Whilst this must have been true throughout history, I would doubt it can have been on such a scale before, or at least not since the Black Death in the 14th Century. I think this goes some of the way to explaining the contrast between the spiritual journey of JSB and the apparent lack of one by the Howells generation.
All the best,
Brian Childs
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I can understand the views expressed above but they no more can be taken as authoritative than mine on symphonic Bruckner or the late John Thaw's on Gilbert & Sullivan!
Authoritative on what ? They are definitive as far as my opinion goes and presumably the same would hold true for MM. Speaking for myself I am not purporting to deny that Howells was a significant composer, nor that there are many who like his music (for all I know they may constitute 99.99% of all known music lovers) ......etc
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I give many definitive answers; all of which define me.
The thought of 99.99% of all music-lovers liking the music of Howells brought on another small nose-bleed and mild seizure, but at least Brian quoted my favourite percent.
MM
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I do not think the last sentence is quite right. Howell's generation (b 1892) did travel quite a lot,even if he did not . The places they went include Picardy and Champagne in Northern France, Gallipoli, Mesopotamia, and Palestine. The problem may be that a significant number of them did not return ! And those who did come back were not unchanged by the experiences of their travels!
But I do find myself somewhat in sympathy with MM's views on Howell's the composer. As Anglican Muzak it is fine, but I have never been able to grasp the point of,eg, Paean and it does nothing for me when heard in recitals. I had always assumed that this was a failure on my part which I should keep quiet about . However, as at least one other person suffers from the same condition perhaps we should form a support group in case there are others out there similarly ashamed of owning up .
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There was I thinking I was just a lonely little petunia in an onion patch!
Actually, in my own defence, I think I was referring to spiritual travel rather than actual travel, even though Bach went hiking around Northern Europe.
As for a support group, I think Brian and myself must immediately form one.
I think it should be called H.O.W.E.L.L.S. (Howells of Worcester, enabling latent loathing support).
MM
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foghorns: Well, maybe not quite. The diaphone seems to be 'invented' as an organstop, then just a little later also in use as a foghorn. Isn't that nice: an organstop that travels outside?
Anyway I'm very curious what it sounds like, and if Worcester can't keep it: let's bring it to the mainland! Maybe the Dom in Cologne can use it, I've heard rumours that there are plans for a chamadedivision above main entrance at 1000mm windpressure....
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I think the time has come for a supply of anoraks and tee-shirts:-
http://www.cafepress.com/diaphone
Before anyone considers carting the Worcester Diaphones off to Cologne, when they rightfully belong in the Hope Jones Museum in Manchester, they might like to consider the problems of size and weight before hanging them off a wall:-
http://elliottrl.tripod.com/cc/diaphone.html
Perhaps the late John Compton should have the final word:-
"It may frankly be admitted that the best diaphone to be found in any Hope-Jones organ is more or less irregular and faulty in tone, and can seldom be used with really good effect except in combination with other stops."
For those who wish to read the full article by John Compton, I would recommend the following:-
http://atos.stirlingprop.com/kbase/diaophonenotes.htm
And for those few (?) dedicated types who wish to organise a day-trip or an international conference, the organ of Hull City Hall has a 32ft Diaphone by Compton....a suitable reminder of the now defunct deep-sea-fishing industry in that city.
For the housebound or elderly, I would recommend a good set of loudspeakers and a finger shoved into an input socket of the amplifier, with the volume well wound up.....you'll get some idea of how they sound.
MM
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It was done 3 seasons ago under Colin Davis - a wonderful performance - vast orchestra, choirs stacked up to the roof, 3 cymbal players etc - all suitably 'Babylonian' as Berlioz desired.
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I just had a disturbing vision of "choirs stacked up to the roof."
'Babylonian' or 'Jerichonian' I wonder?
I had this image of the choirs, a blast of the big Tuba and a mini holocaust live on TV as they all tumbled down.
Gerard Hoffnung would have had a field day!
MM
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It was done 3 seasons ago under Colin Davis - a wonderful performance - vast orchestra, choirs stacked up to the roof, 3 cymbal players etc - all suitably 'Babylonian' as Berlioz desired.
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I couldn't remember why I disliked Berlioz so much. Thanks to Mr Sayer for reminding me.
MM
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An interesting point, but this is the same Proms Administrator who commissioned and put Birtwhistle's "Panic" in the Last Night a few years back much to the consternation of about 99.5% of the viewing public....
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But surely once bitten etc, which would be a good reason for not being quite so adventurous again! I found the "living composer" piece this time rather intriguing though that may have been heavily influenced by the visual , rather than the purely musical content. And it was quite short. Now had the piece gone on for the length of Beethoven's Ninth or even the "Wedge" I might have felt differently !
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I've never heard "Panic" by Harrison Birtwhistle, but judging on past form, I do not feel deprived. The contemporary work heard at the last night was so memorable, I cannot recall the composer or the title!
Not only did I not appreciate it, I didn't even like the noise it made.
Insofar as the organ is concerned, to my mind, the most obvious "prom" item would be the stunning "Olivet in Paris" by Dupre, with its solo organ sections and magnificent choral-writing.
Until composers re-join the rest of the planet, I fear that I wouldn't wish to expose an unsuspecting public to the joys of contemporary organ music; though I feel sure that there are wonderful things being written somewhere.
MM
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My words, the BBC may position their microphones in such a way that the organ is reduced in effect, but the "Last night of the Proms" certainly didn't disappoint, apart from the obvious compression in the volume levels.
The old girl sounded in splendid voice with rock-steady wind, and the way she rang out over the top of the BBC Symphony Orchestra / Chorus and 5,000 people, with the pedal reeds trampling over everything like a bull elephant, was quite extraordinary!
My loudspeakers enjoyed their annual "outing" and the neighbours asked me, this morning, if I had enjoyed the concert!!
I think it calls for an additional "Hip-hip - Hurray!" to John Mander and everyone involved in the work at the RAH.
Wasn't the Rodriguez guitar-concerto simply magnificent?
Watching John Williams play the guitar is an essay in economy of effort and flawless technique, backed by super musicianship. It took me right back to one of the top six musical moments of my life, when I heard Segovia live in Spain.
It just doesn't come better than this!
MM
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What I mean is this: Bach did not awake one morning thinking "Now I'm going
to build a new style".
This is something that emerges in the course of time. What he actually did
was everyday work.
Now take Herbert Howells. Here is a composer who did compose solo organ music
intended for accompanimental organs. And it works, little or big fish he may be.
(It's by far too early to decide!).
That's in very short why I believe the british romantic (the baroque we know very very little about) organ is under rated, and, even worse, under rated by the people
who are responsible of their preservation.
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Bach never created a new style; he mereley elevated an old one to new and dizzy heights. Hence, he was regarded as "old Bach" in his last years.
Of one thing we may be sure; Bach had a fascination with almost the whole of contemporary European music during his life, and THAT'S what separates him from mere parochialism.
If we MUST discuss Herbert Howells music (which is probably better than listening to it!), then it soon becomes apparent that his style, such as it was, derived from the extreme chromaticism and shifting key-centres of Delius and late German romanticism. (Edmund Rubbra complained about this, in suggesting that the problem of English music was that "composers change key too much.")
The orchestral equivalent, apart from Delius, was Vaughan-Williams, who at least had the sense to re-discover folk-music and Thomas Tallis on which to hang his harmonies. Interestingly, in "Master Tallis' testament", Howells created the one work which stands head and shoulders above the rest, possibly because he finally discovered a melody which actually started and ended in the same key.
As for the "British romantic organ," my worry is not that it is under-valued, but that it is over-valued; especially when it concerns an area of extreme organ-building covering a period of a mere 40 years (1900-1940 or so). It's interesting that the glaring parochialism of this period co-incides with "fortress Britain," and with the best will in the world, that era is now dead and buried, in spite of renderings of "Land of Hope and Glory" at the Proms by those who don't even know what Blake was writing about with "Jerusalem!"
If we are prepared to wallow in the sentiments of an age long dead, don't we deserve to perish with it?
THAT'S the thing about Bach.....he mentally (and physically) travelled outside his parish boundary, whereas Herbert Howells and his generation did not.
MM
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Sounds interesting, can't you put on a website somewhere (i.e. downloadable in read-only non-printable PDF)?
I've got some Czech music in my collection, must say it looks interesting!
and quite difficult
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Since writing the article about Czech organs, organ history and organ-music, I've carried out a number of revisions as more material has come to light. It currently runs to about 24 pages.
In fact, there is a section on "organs & organists on-line" for articles and reviews, and this is where I intend to archive it in due course. I'm not quite sure what the best format is going to be for the purpose.
However, I can send it to anyone as a Word document in the meantime, as I have done to a couple of people on this discussion board already. The same applies to the Hungarian and Polish reviews, if for no other reason than I would welcome any further comments or suggestions, as they are in the revision process at the current time.
Ask and thou shalt receive.
MM
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This is an important question. I occasionally do some Petr Eben and Arvo Part but that's about as far into the area I've gone.
Sadly the comment about transcriptions is probably true, as would be questions over the standard of scholarship. There is a guy called Michael Novenko who came over from Czech about ten years go, so I went to his big recital at Peterborough - he completely rewrote two Hindemith sonatas and played lots of Rheinberger.
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I'm fascinated to know how Michael Novenko re-wrote two Hindemith Sonatas!
As an organist he is well respected, but of course, he is also a notable 12-tone improviser and composer.
In fact, you can hear him in action at the following link, by clicking onto the record sleeves, scrolling down and clicking on the treble-clefs for the sound sample from "Musica Bona."
http://www.musicabona.com/catalog/CR0217-2.html.en
I have a list (probably by no means exhaustive) of around 200 modern or contemporary organ-works from the Czech Republic alone, and I have heard at least a little of some of them. What fascinates me is the sheer diversity of them, with tonal or atonal harmony, folk rhythms, plainsong themes etc etc.
I am informed that the Hungarian organists and composers are also remarkable, but thus far, I have struggled terribly with translations of the language and it has proved to be very heavy going.
I will repeat my offer, that should anyone be interested, I have quite an interesting article about Czech organ-music, with sound samples and pretty pictures, should anyone be interested. I am also revising a similar pair of articles about Polish and Hungarian organ-history and musical culture.
MM
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Speaking as an ignoramus from another continent, isn't Redcliffe Cuthbert Harrison?
Just asking.
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I almost had a heart-attack Barry!
However, you do have a bit of a point, due to the fact that part of the organ was destroyed by fire and had to be replaced. Furthermore, under Cuthbert Harrison (and also Mark Venning), tonal modifications have been made.
The full potted-history can be seen on the following URL:-
http://www.stmaryredcliffe.co.uk/Organ.htm
In character, it remains definitely an Arthur Harrison instrument, and it is wonderful.
Regards,
MM
a spare Willis/Mander for free! 
actually played one in concert a few times and given talks about them.
...
Worcester Cathedral's Organ
in The Organ
Posted
[quote name=Brian Childs' date='Sep 15 2005, 11:38
Of one thing I am sure....ALL organ-builders need to read about acoustic-engineering and the characteristics of modern building materials, which have a nunmber of very specific characteristics.
I am sure this is right, and I am sure most do, but clearly there is some empirical evidence to suggest that there are either some exceptions or that the lessons have not been properly understood
MM
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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Well maybe some have Brian, but it is this critical area of mid-range frequency absorption which seems to cause the problem; especially when long-wave sound travels easily, and hard reflective surfaces "project" the higher frequencies like so much shrapnel.
I can see that this sort of acoustic totally alters the balances of normal pipe-scale progressions and voicing, and the results (even by extremely respected organ-builders) seem to fall short of the ideal, when it possibly isn't their fault if they have to build an organ before a hall is completely kitted out and furnished.
Another thing which I failed to mention. When people file into a hall, the absorption increases enormously, and in combination with soft-frunishings, the normal floor to ceiling resonances are almost killed stone-dead, and any remaining resonance comes from a combination of direct stage-area sound and reflected sound from hard surfaces situated above the stage area and from side-walls.
This is EXACTLY the situation at the Festival Hall, and if you care to sit to the right of the auditorium, you hear two organs.....the big one at the front, and the smaller, squeekier one to your right! What you DON'T hear is a fusion of agreeable ambient sound coming from everywhere, as in a cathedral or church.
In other words, it's the classic cinema type of acoustic essentially, but with a little more deliberate resonance built in to the final result.
So maybe an organ-builder should aim for Schnitger, but keep Wurlitzer firmly in the back of his mind as he does so!! He needs to compensate for what the building is taking away.
MM