MusingMuso
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Posts posted by MusingMuso
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I would like to see some of the more erratic editions sued under the Sale Of Goods Acts!
I have been thinking about how one might do this but on what basis would you ground your claim ? Lack of satisfactory quality ? Not fit for purpose ? Failure to correspond with description ? I would have thought each of these lines of approach might encounter certain problems.
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Oh Brian! You're a lawyer!
The tac I would take is one of professional competence. It is surely the EXPECTATION that a professional publisher should take ALL REASONABLE CARE in presenting a printed document, and BY THE RULES OF PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCE, they MUST be accurate and faithful to the original if they claim to be professionals.
It's the same thing as car-repairs....if the car falls apart after a repair, it comes down to professional competence and the assumption that the punter is a lay-person without special knowledge.
So on THAT basis, any deliberate or unintentional errors falling short of accuracy may well simply be deliberate or unintentional misrepresentation.......either incompetence or deceit, as the case may be.
THIS could lead to action as "material unfit for the purpose" and therefore in contravention of the Sale of Goods Act.
Hey! I should have been a lawyer!
MM
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One of the most recent high profile cases of an organ being loudly trumpeted before purchase and regretted afterwards is the Bridgewater Hall. We were told that this was the organ we had all been waiting for, this was how all organs should sound/be designed/be built. Well, those who doubted have been rewarded for sitting back and waiting.
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Refer to the discussion about acoustics. Marcussen do actually build some very fine organs, but like many, they possibly do not understand the absorbency of certain modern materials used in new concert-halls.
Even the trumpeted Symphony Hall, Birmingham, is an engineered acoustic, which relies on reflectors AND resonance chambers scattered around the walls, but it STILL absorbs sound in a way which a normal church or traditonal hall never would.
My guess is that without the resonance chambers, the Symphony Hall would be much the same as other modern concert halls in many ways, but the trouble is, my response is entirely musically instinctive rather than scientific; even though I've studied the effects of modern materials to SOME extent.
MM
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If publisher's copyright extends only to the actual layout on the page, can I assume one is at liberty to copy pieces from the published copy into Sibelius provided the composer has been dead for 70 years?
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I would suggest that one has to be careful here, because even the slightest editing mark is covered by copyright....even if that is but a correction to the original composer's mistakes.
Of course, it works both ways. I doubt that a certain publisher of the Bossi Scherzo would take legal action if you copied THEIR mistakes onto Sibelius!!
MM
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I will re-quote my words Tony...."Sadly, St.Mary's RC Bradford, is in a blighted area with a very high Asian population, and support has crumbled over the years. "
Now if you are going to pick a fight, it is important to understand the English language!
I did not say the area was blighted BECAUSE it has a very high Asian population.
MM
Hum!
Why cite it then?
"Support has crumbled..." would have been enough then...
Best wishes,
Pierre
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OK...I'll re-phrase it.
Bradford is a blighted area due to the collapse of the former textile and engineering industries. Many of the traditional British-born workers in those industries moved away, leaving behind a large second and third generation population derived from the immigrant workers who came from areas of the former British commonwealth; many of whom do not attend catholic mass on a Sunday.
Bradford is now the heroin-trade capital of Northern England and is famous for the variety of fast-food emporia serving exotic cuisine.
There you are! I didn't mention the "A" word once!!
MM
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Why do you say that the area is "blighted" just because there's a large Asain population? That's the sort of attitude that those of us in the churches in Bradford are fighting against.
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I will re-quote my words Tony...."Sadly, St.Mary's RC Bradford, is in a blighted area with a very high Asian population, and support has crumbled over the years. "
Now if you are going to pick a fight, it is important to understand the English language!
I did not say the area was blighted BECAUSE it has a very high Asian population.
MM
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Hi
NPOIR to the resue again - DBOB - Henry Booth Gay Lane Otley between 1881 & 1889.
It appears from DBOB that there are a number of Booths known of in this area (Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield).
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Interestingly, Booth of Otley were reputed to be "disciples of Schulze"....Schulze having more disciples than the Lord, it seems.
In fact, this is the only organ I know of by this firm, but the tonal quality is excellent for a local builder. Sadly, St.Mary's RC Bradford, is in a blighted area with a very high Asian population, and support has crumbled over the years. The organ staggers along, but there isn't a pot of gold available should it suddenly cease working. The original Aneesens case and 16ft front is still in situ, and I believe that the original opening recital on the Aneseens was given by the Belgian organist, Jaques Lemmens. This was one of the very earliest electric-action instruments in the UK.
MM
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Of course, if the recitalist finds they have come without the correct music, one would (having made the effort to get to the venue) prefer that they played something rather than sent everybody home again. Also, some allowance has to be made for those occasions when "events, dear boy, events" disrupt even the best of intentions/ well thought out plans......
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I recall giving a recital at St.Bride's, Fleet Street, when I had travelled a very long way, only to discover that I hadn't put "Hallelujah! Gott zu Loben" into the briefcase.
Prayer seemed inadequate, memory was not enough and with a heart-rate approaching that of a Formula One driver at the starting-grid, I considered my options. Fleeing abroad seemed slightly extreme and not in-expensive, whilst booking myself into a mental hospital seemed to be a bit dramatic....would I ever get out if they saw the state I was in?
Pacing around, gatherings my thoughts in Hyde Park, I hit upon an idea, and sprinted to the telephone. I rang the RCO librarian!!
I was like Vincent Price in that spider's web, as I screamed, "HELP ME!!!"
In spite of the fact that I had not the slightest conncetion with the RCO, and almost certainly never will have, the librarian was wonderful. He first of all calmed me down, made a couple of telephone calls and sent me along to a shop nearby
Panic over, I calmly wandered to Fleet Street and played my little heart out, but couldn't resist replying , when comment was made about the pristine copy, "Oh! I've had it a while. I thought I'd just bring it along to see what it sounded like!!"
I can be such a liar.....
MM
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Kurt Masur (Gewandhausorchester, Leipzig and other orchestras) apparently rates Leeds Town Hall very highly
Pity about the organ though - the 1972 rebuild was well-intentioned but somehow doesn't hang together: child of the time, I suppose.
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That's a bit harsh John!
Actually, down the hall, the organ at Leeds Town Hall is a very interesting sound, but admittedly, one on its' own, which can only be a good thing. Using a combination of Gray & Davison pipework, new pipes and pipes re-cycled from a scrapyard, Dennis Thurlow did a rather good job of the voicing, I think.
Pierre will be delighted to know that the half-length 32ft reed is actually by Aneesens of Belgium, and came from the old organ of St.Mary's, East Parade, Bradford which had been replaced by an organ largely the work of Booth of Otley, whoever they were.
The important thing is, the often large audiences love it, and I've certainly enjoyed some magnificent performances there.
Wonderful moments too....such as Simon Lindley elbowing stops in. I swore he once used his right foot! Another head-butted the 8ft Ophicleide; some of us chanted "Leeds United!" Then there was the infamous hurricane which ripped through Leeds, as Jane Parker-Smith sat down to play to the accompaniment of 100mph winds hitting the roof.
"Sorry about the heavy-wind obligato!" It could only be Simon Lindley!!
Anyway....I was there at the opening....I saw and heard Flor Peeters, and I have the souvenir programme/booklet to prove it.
Thar's nowt wrong wi' town 'all organ. On thee bike Sayer!
MM
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Sheffield City Hall has recently undergone a £12.5 million refurbishment programme. None of the money has been spent on the organ. Much more is known about producing a pleasing acoustic. But it will be interesting to experience the effect this has had (if any) in eradicating the hitherto dry acoustic of the building.
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Sheffield City Hall, I understand, comes close to the top of the league-table of awful buildings. The Bridgewater should have been a whole lot better, and probably is.
Whilst not wishing to blame anyone for the relatively underwhelming sound of the Marcussen organ there, it would be nice to understand the design process from sod to sortie; not just that of the organ, but that of the hall also, which at least "appears" to have some element of acoustic design about it.
I read an interesting paper on acoustics a couple of days ago, which suggests that acoustic-engineers are so familiar with recorded sound, that they have a distorted view of what constitutes a good acoustic. There may well be truth in that statement. Of course, knowing Manchester, it is quite likely that their idea of a "concert hall" is one suitable for a Robbie Williams or "Scissors Sisters" gig, and I can't imagine that they'd be wasting a lot of money on fancy wood panelling!
Maybe the answer is much nearer to home, and perhaps Marcussen just don't have the expertise in concert-hall organ design. It may well be that the organ-consultant specified specific aspects of pipe-scaling and voicing. Maybe, as I have suggested, modern materials have produced a new type of acoustic, in which case, the architects and acoustic-engineers need to know that it doesn't work very well.
One thing I do see, when I look at the absorption characteristics of many modern materials, is a horror-story. Some materials absorb only 10% of sounds below 500Hz, and much the same above 2 KHz, but between that, they can be gobbling up 50% of the sound energy!
That's my concern, and it is what I hear in many concert halls to-day.
MM
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Well,
I fear we shall need more than a truck in order to preserve
this british church music (I mean: the organs, the music and
the choirs) that seems to be at a bargain now. We need help
from the Royal Navy.
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I think you are being a little negative Pierre. I've done a bit of a logistics exercise on this, and I have worked out that using a double-deck 40ft trailer, with the smaller boys stacked horizontally inside Worcetser diaphone resonators at the top, and the remainder of the choir-members stood vertically, shoulder to shoulder below, one truck could move 10 cathedral choirs under better conditions than that experienced by animals in transit.
Obviously, the "grazing" breaks would incur additional expenses en route, but we could negotiate.
Four journeys, and we'd have the lot in Belgium within 48 hours.....£1,000 ballpark, plus additional fries and sardines in tomato sauce.
MM
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From what I've read about new organs built by Mander in challenging buildings, the company has done its best to design the internal layout to maximise the egress of sound into the building. (snip).....
I once conducted a band in a theatre, which had so much sound absorbing material that I was able to tell the brass and percussion that no matter how loud they played, they would not be able to drown the singers. (snip)
My understanding of Symphony Hall, Birmingham was that Arup was the project manager, but Artec and Russel Johnson had carte blanche when it came to the accoustic design and specification of the materials used.
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This is very interesting, possibly because it gets to the core of that to which I alluded.
"Egress of sound" may indeed NOT be the key to solving the problem; though it would doubtless be a move in the right direction.
Let me fly off at a brief tangent.....
How many modern concert hall organs sound weak until the chamades are drawn?
That says it all, because the relatively fierce sound is acutely directional, and the barking horizontal reeds tends to dominate everything.
Moving swiflty back to Anthony Poole's experience with the brass players, I'd like to bet that he heard the Trombones and Trumpets.....for the same reason as the chamades.....directional sound.
But again, this is only part of the problem, which may or may not have a solution as the case may be.
I have a very interesting recording of the organist (and genius!) Hector Olivera, playing a large theatre organ in the U.S., which is preceded by the final soundtrack of a film. The film track sounds distinctly "honky" because it is obviously quite an old one, but when the organ cracks in, it utterly dwarfs the sound of obviously powerful auditorium loudspeakers. Not only that, if it is run through a spectrum analysis display, there is a wonderfully even slope of sound, from the powerful basses, right through the mid-range and tailing off gently towards the higher end of the spectrum. IT IS AN ALMOST IDENTICAL SLOPE TO THAT DEMONSTRATED AT ST.MARY,REDCLIFFE, ON VIRTUALLY FULL ORGAN, BUT WITHOUT THE LATER GREAT QUINT MIXTURE ADDED BY CUTHBERT HARRISON.
Now isn't that fascinating?
Two completely different types of building, two completely different type of organ, but a similar result Ie; a musical sound.
It must be stated that my methods have not been entirely scientific or in any way a "controlled experiment," but the results are obviously pointing towards something significant.
Forgetting for a moment the origins and musical purpose of a theatre organ, which is quite irrelevant to this discussion, it seems to me that the builders of theatre organs actually knew what they were doing exactly, and had discovered a means of producing good organ-tone under tricky circumstances.
Another interesting fact......
Not far from me is a church which has an acoustic as dead as a witch's mammory gland, and in which is a Lewis/Compton instrument which sounds extremely good.
So rather than trying to pontificate or suggest solutions to a problem, I raise the interesting question as to whether "classical voicing" has any place at all in a concert hall like the Bridgewater at Manchester, and if it does not, is there an alternative which doesn't take us straight back to Arthur Harrison, Aeolian Skinner or, dare I suggest, Rudolph Wurlitzer and Hope Jones?
Discuss!
MM
PS: Arup are bright enough to have some very able people on their books as "associates." They've had much success as a result of delegating design to people they trust.
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One might almost (just for the fun of it) think about putting some 'Worcester' in there (Royal Diapone 32'
)...
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Don't forget the redundant Willis/Mander at Sheffield Cathedral!
It could be scattered around the building like it is now.
It's time to think BIG! Passau Cathedral here we come....nay....move over Atlantic City!!
MM
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I think you are right that what people consider to be good accoustics is subjective. Personally, I think the Royal Festival Hall has a far worse accoustic than the Royal Albert Hall, despite the latter's faults.
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I think I would agree with everything Anthony Poole states, save for the fact that Arup bore the responsibility for the end result at Birmingham.
However, we are in danger of sliding back towards the subject of "favourable acoustics" rather than the unfavourable acoustics I began with.
A technical note about the RFH, which when built, was not built as specified by the architects. I forget the exact details, but some of the material specifications differed from that stipulated, and this had a disatrous effect on the final outcome.
Without making any political point, Peter Mandelson has been busily trying to prevent changes to the hall, due to some family connection with the design of the building and his desire to preserve what he regards as "heritage."
My original post was concerned with buildings which do not favour organ-music, and we all have our pet hates. Mine include Bradford Cathedral and the Fairfield Hall, Croydon, among others; the latter a classic example of a theatre acoustic which does nothing good for the organ.
With the benefit of hindsight (always the greatest benefit!), how does an organ-builder design around the problems of an essentially defective or challenging building?
THIS is what we need to address.
MM
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Hi
All very interesting - but in reference to church acoustics, we perhaps need to keep in mind that listening to the organ is not the primary function of the building!
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Why do we need to keep this in mind?
MM
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My apologies for the spellin' mistakes in the last post, which was sent prematurely when I hit the send button in error. However, it's close enough, so I shall not bother to replace it with a corrected version.
MM
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In the Worcester Cathedral organ thread, I went off at something of a tangent concerning acoustics, and one discussion-board contributor suggested that we might open this as a new a separate subject; which I now do.
To re-cap, mention was made of the Marcussen organ at Bridgewater Hall, and its' seemingly ineffective qualities at this particular location, which I suggested may be more to do with the design of the building tahn any particular fault on the part of the organ-builder.
However, to get this discussion off on the right footing, perhaps it is necessary to start with a few basics.
Where, I wonder, are the best acoustics to be found?
We each have our favourite buildings, but I think that most people would generally agree that some of the very finest buildings in which organs are placed, are to be found in Holland. The churches may vary in size, and there will be obvious exceptions to the rule, but broadly speaking, smaller churches have a certain warmth and resonance thanks to extensive wooden interior furnishings and panelling material, and in the very large buildings, the general rule seems to be that of a single large room with either very shallow transpets, or none at all.
It is clearly in such buildings that organ-tone is heard at its' best.
Listen to an old baroque organ in such buildings, and there is not usually the slightest sense of shrillness or a lack of warmth, presence or fundamental. Like the carefully shaped body of a violin made by the master hand, the building becomes the great musical belly in which the music blossoms. Interestingly, when playing one of the best organs in Holland, there is a striking fact about the sound coming from the instrument, which seems to demonstrate a certain eveness in the relative volumes right across the audible spectrum, with no particulary audible "spikes" or attenuations.
Things are less good in England; especially in the great cathedral churches, where deep transpets, changing roof lines and even stone screens break up the whole into a serious of "mini-acoustics" which often scatter the sound less than ideally.
Nevertheless, a good organ will still sound like a good organ, even if it lacks the perfect definition of its' continetal counterparts in the Netherlands.
Although the theory of acoustics is an enormous, complex and often subjective one, there can be little doubt but that modern buildings and building-materials often result in an acoustic which is often less than favourable to good, evenly spread organ-tone, and therefore presents special challenges to the art of the organ-builder and voicer.
Having started the subject, I went back to my notes and some of the sources of information I had on disc.
To cut a liong story short, the "absorption co-efficients" of modern building materials are radically different from more traditional materials such as stone, brick or glass. It isn't, it seems, simply a question of sound absorbency, but sound absorption within specific frequency bands.
If we take stone as an example (much the same applies to brick and concrete), the absorption characteristics are not only very low; more importantly, they are very even across the audible spectrum. This means that even in traditional buildings with only the most modest acoustic, the rate of absorbency is uniform across the musical spectrum, by and large. Even carpets absorb energy across the spectrum evenly.
Enter the world of the modern architect, who has to work around building regulations concerning firewalls, structural integrity, cost-saving building methods and structral integrity. Add to this the requirements of creature comforts such as soft-seat covers, carpets, lighting (requiring hidden ducting), heating and ventilation (again requiring hidden ducting) and decor, and what we have is an acoustic nightmare, which the acoustic engineers have to work around and modify, using computer models and scale-model acoustic test-beds.
Enter the problem of modern materials, which may be fibrous board, fire-retardent laminates, plastics, foams, acoustic tiles, fibreglass etc etc.
ALL these materials, almost without exception, have very specific characteristics, and taking a look at the absorbency co-efficients, what we find is an uneven absorbency across the audible spectrum. Some materials kill high-freqencies, whilst others kill the lower frequencies, but in the critical mid-frequencies, at which each of us is most sensitive, there can be enormous increases in energy absorbency, because these building materials were usually designed for offices and other industrial applications rather than for concert halls.
For the moment, that is enough to consider, but if one thinks of the Royal Albert Hall, which has the worst natural acoustic in the world, it was the use of modern materials which came to its' rescue....so it isn't all bad news by any means, and the Arup Associates company who designed the Birmingham Symphony Hall, have shown just what can be achieved using modern materials and a classi concert-hall shape..
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This topic is actually related to organ tone in England, as both go hand in hand. We often speak of the typical English sound, and cite Elgar, Howells, Stanford etc as the composers who wrote for the English church, and who have enriched our choral and organ heritage of music. So how are they related? ...
(snip)
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I'm not an expert or even a great choral-music enthusiast, but it seems to me that this topic is not unrelated to continental organ-tone v. English organ-tone.......sort of larynx and languid.
There is nothing quite like statements about this or that.
What constitutes "continental tone" I wonder?
Perhaps we are referring to the Vienna Boy's Choir....the Rieger of the choral world?
Could it be "Boni Pueri" in the Czech Republic....the Rieger-Kloss of the choral world?
Could it be St.John's College, Cambridge under George Guest; the chosen preference of Benjamin Britten?
Of one thing we may be sure, the thinner head-tones are actually a whole lot clearer in a great building than the rounder sounds of "traditional" Anglican choral-singing.
Frankly, with most of the English tradition now dead in the water outside the cathedrals, it possibly makes sense to book tickets to Latvia if one wants to hear great choral singing.
Ah! Those damned foreigners! They'll be winning medals at the Olympics soon.
MM
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Guys, there's some really interesting seat of the pants thinking going on here. But since most people gave up on the Worcester dimension aeons ago, as the discussion had well and truly run its course, most people like me had been ignoring this discussion, thinking a dead horse was being flogged. There's some great stuff here, but open it in a new topic so the rest can join in the fun. or merely observe from a safe distance.
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How can anyone be bored, they play cricket at Worcester!
Seriously, to swing the acoustic thing back towards the original topic of Worcester, and by implication, the great cathedral churches, we actually have the exact opposite of that to which I referred; namely an acoustic which quite naturally favours middle to low frequencies. For the life of me, I cannot understand the English fashion for opaque heaviness and thundering basses, which merely over emphasised what the buildings were doing already.
It may actually be true, and maybe even obvious, but an organ like that in the Bridgewater Hall or the Festival Hall, would probably sound superb in an English cathedral, and a English cathedral organ would probably sound better in either of the two venues mentioned above.
It just seems curious that the same mistakes are made to-day as were made yesterday, but in completely opposite circumstances and by completely opposite means.
I seem to recall Dennis Thurlow telling me that the first thing he did when deciding what an organ should be like, was to sit quietly in the building and listen to what it was telling him.
Didn't Schulze say, "I can gif dem my scales, but I cannot gif dem dis!"
He pointed to his ear.
MM
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In offering my condolences to John Pike Mander on the death of his father Noel, I hope that he will know that many of us suffer a sense of loss at the passing of a great craftsman.
His legacy is not only the many fine organs he created or re-created, but also the Mander company as it is to-day; of which he must surely have approved and from which he must have derived much personal satisfaction and a sense of fulfilment.
May he rest in peace and may John and those who similarly mourn, find comfort.
With heartfelt sympathy,
Colin Mitchell
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Fine, we are going towards a solution that will
suit everyone.
You add the Green into the truck -what music to play
unto this thing we shall find within the flemish baroque repertoire,
or even be content with extemporisations- on the way between W...
and Dover. In exchange you'll get sardines in tomato sauce to
enjoy as breaks between Dietrich Domino's music performance
upon that Schnitger-Wurlitzer hybrid.
Deal done?
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Unfortunately, I am not in a position to do any deals, though I would always be willing to arrange transport on a sub-contract basis.
I feel sure that the fusion of Samuel Green choruswork and Hope-Jones Pedal Diaphones will produce interesting and maybe even memorable results; almost certainly carving a niche in the history of Flemish (World?) organ-building and making the final destination a place of pilgrimage.
If the said hybrid is to be located at a seaside venue, it may be possible to get EU funding from a variety of sources, including early warning defence procurement funds and the Belgian equivalent of Trinity House.
Unfortunately, with the current cost of diesel oil, mere sardines would be inadequate recompense for the work involved. I feel sure that "Pate de poisson aux asperges et fine herbes" or "Marguerite de saumon et turbot sauce champagne" would be appreciated by myself and my faithful manservant "Greasy spoon" Bob, and make a welcome relief from the usual diet of "Big Macs."
MM
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I mean this: rather reconstitute a Samuel Green organ wherever
it will fit than to try so hasardous a synthesis between a Schnitger
and a Wurlitzer.
Or you may try Ketchup on an Oyster's plate.
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Not a million miles from me is an organ by Samuel Green. It is in a small room and it makes a very small, sweet sound. Musical though it may be, I have yet to discover music actually written for it.
The more serious point about Schnitger/Wurlitzer, is that an English solution possibly already exists to the problem of modern concert-halls, in the organs of
T C Lewis. Robust (almost Schulzian) boldness, with plenty of tonal "body," yet sufficiently "classical" as to serve as a model for anyone who would attempt to maintain both classical integrity and tonal suitability.
Thank you for the recipe, but I don't have oysters I'm afraid.
Would prawns be a suitable alternative, or do I have to open a tin of sardines in tomato sauce?
MM
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So maybe an organ-builder should aim for Schnitger, but keep Wurlitzer firmly in the back of his mind as he does so!! He needs to compensate for what the building is taking away.
(Quote)
Now we have the real thing indeed: Nouvelle cuisine.
What about a Kinura chorus?
I'd go for a Samuel Green.
Best wishes,
Pierre
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Now Pierre, a Kinura with octave and sub-octave, has its' uses.
It is just perfect for "Mosquito Parade."
More seriously, the idea of a Samuel Green chorus at Bridgewater Hall would be much the same as a Dulciana chorus elsewhere.....completely ineffective if not quite inaudible.
MM
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"Organists are like broken down cab-horses; always longing for another stop."
- Canon Sydney Smith (St Paul's)
"The house of God is not beautified by rows of zinc chimmney cans," - Canon Sydney Smith (St Paul's)
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"Here lies a fine organist and musician" -
"Good heavens! How did they get them in the save grave?" - Thos.Beecham
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"I am reading your criticism whilst seated in the smallest room in the house, and I am happy to inform you that it will soon be behind me and forgotten" - Max Reger
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"Oh bugger!" - Dr Francis Jackson (on leaving So-Gt drawn for the pp section of the Liszt BACH with the Tuba drawn) - Ripon Cathedral recital.
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THESE PEOPLE DESERVED TO BE CENSORED!!
mm
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So we have a "Vox Flatulatum" - what would its undulating rank equivalent be called?
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Let's see now....
Farts.....Undulating ranks....Unda Maris....under water.....Bath...GOT IT!
"Vox Flatulatum Unter Maris"
I'm sure it's an old tradition there, and might have contributed to the invention of the hydraulus in Rome.
"Floten in the bathtub anyone?"
Would that be a "Saunaflute" or are they restricted to calliopes?
MM
)...
Franz Schumann
in The Organ
Posted