MusingMuso

============================== We're all so very different in our particular areas of knowledge, and I thank "Vox" for this, because I know absolutely nothing about pre-reformation music except Byrd and a few others. I don't ever recall hearing anything about English polyphony going so far back, but I expect it must have done. I was lucky, (not being a particularly knowledgable choral expert), that I just happened to know about the local history, and the possible influences thereof across the land. MM

================================== Oh yes! The You Tube clip of Thomas Murray playing Schumann is just extrordinary, and you're right there at the console watching him. Of course, another very good exponent of thumbing down is Jelani Eddington playing theatre organs, but for clever tricks, Cameron Carpenter not only thumbs down, he fingers up at the same time; using three manuals with one hand. MM

============================== I think it was Frank Fowler who had something to say about this, because he was with H,N & B at the time. My understanding is that Germani was told that this was the organ they would be using for the recording. I suspect that Selby was about as modern as English organs came at the time, and I can't really think of anything which was more up to date as a re-build. What a tragedy, in some ways, that we couldn't have enjoyed the same performance on an organ like Coventry & Blackburn Cathedrals or the Colston Hall, Bristol, but they came much later. Another alternative might have been either of the two biggies in Liverpool, but alas, it was not to be. MM

=============================== A very interesting observation, and I know that when I played the Reger "Hallelujah!" for my finals, it was the fulfilment of an ambition I had nurtered for a long time. Furthermore, I wanted it to be like Germani....no compromises and no excuses.....but I'm not sure that I ever got close to that. However, I do know that I spent a long time listening and re-listening to what Germani did, and I think I may humbly be able to shed a little light on this. I'm sure that much of the clarity derives from the most immaculate phrasing, in which there is considerable daylight. (Listen to the opening of the fugue from Selby....it dances onto centre stage like a ballerina). He picked his fingers up as well as he put them down, and without that, Reger's music can become very obscure and flat-line. More than this, Germani had that rare gift of symmetry, where each repetition of a theme or motif was played with great consistency of phrasing; again driving the music along and bringing great order to the often considerable development of those phrases. Even his feet seemed to have the gift of musical wings, dancing ever so lightly and with tremendous precision. Another trick which Germani used, was to change the notes to advantage. In a quiet passage, there is a wonderful moment where he thumbs down to highlight, very subtley, the theme of the chorale, and then he changes back as the melody ascends to the treble line. It is a small but priceless detail, but not one which Reger cared to indicate. My conclusion would be that Germani had a rare sense of musical architecture, combined with innate musicianship and a flawless technique. Any of these qualities is remarkable in itself, but as with Francis Jackson as well as Germani, when they combine, it elevates them to the very highest level of musical art. Breathless is the perfect word. MM PS: I'm sure Nigel Allcoat can tell us more.

================================= Sadly so.........I got it from my mother. MM

=================================== All I can say, is that whenever I used to go into Bank's music shop in York, the conversation with the staff would always eventually turn to "Francis." It would then invariably move swiftly to the Willan recording, where we would run out of superlatives very quickly. Eventually, it was just an exchange of nods and gestures, with everyone agreeing on the word definitive. Unfortunately, I would then be quickly drawn to the matter of a certain conversation I had with "Francis" as a fifteen-year-old youth, when I quietly teased him about the start of the Bossi Scherzo on the Great Cathedral series. Listen to this carefully, and you will detect a slight change in accents, as he starts ON the beat, when it should be OFF the beat, but then turns it almost undetected into the right rhythm. So having teased the poor man, he grimaced and gave one of his "Oooooh's," then said, "How very kind of you to mention it, I hadn't noticed." There are moments in life when one regrets having a sense of humour, and I've been living this one down for over 40 years, even if the staff at Bank's found it hilarious. MM

============================== Never heard of him! Oh well, perhaps he was just prejudiced, but to be honest, I don't fully understand his comments if he admired Elgar so much. After all, Elgar's music is lyrical, often contrapuntal, frequently extended and highly chromatic, so I fail to see why JRM could not have been impressed by the music, let alone the performance. As I've oft repeated, to have heard Germani live was one of the greatest privileges of my youth, and yes, the way he combined the heroic with such contrapuntal clarity, in what is often quite dense and dark music, made Germani a giant of interpretation and flawless technique. There were/are others of course......Kynaston, Preston and Melville Cook, with Heinz Wunderlich the natural successor to the title of "Reger maestro." MM

I treated myself to a new record-deck this week, and almost the first things I placed on it were Francis Jackson playing the Great Cathedral recording from York, followed by Roger Fisher playing the Reubke from Chester. 40+ years old, and with all the usual sound defects, I was STILL blown away by those performances. I know what I'm getting myself as a Christmas present! MM

=============================== For some strange, and completely off-topic reason, this reminds me of that wonderful line from Ken Dodd, when he looked down from the stage at Bradford and saw that the front row was full of blonds. "Everytime I told a joke, they would laugh.....eeeee, aaah, aaaaye, baaah. It was only when the lights went up, I reaslised they were sheep." MM

=========================== Now you can understand the perils of peace work! MM

============================= Priestley, or "JB" as he was known, was a great character, and his descriptions of meat pies in shop windows is second to none. The extraoprdinary thing is, that at the age of 14, I used to go to a lovely old farmhouse for "high tea" at Thwaite, in North Yorkshire, of a Sunday afternoon. Many is the time that I sat with and spoke to "JB," who similarly made the 50 mile drive to enjoy absolutely magnificent, home-cooked food.....as much as you could eat from an open table. The Messiah description is spot-on, because even I can remember the days when soloists were whizzing around from venue to venue. For soloists and instrumentalists alike, it was quite profitable, and there is reference to it in a film starring James Robertson Justice, (whom I once met in Scotland). I forget what the film was called, but it was a British comedy about a music college, where JRJ was the principal of the college, and Kenneth Williams was a student I think the line which referrred to the Messiah went something like, "You can always earn good money up north on the Messiah circuit at Christmas, if you get the train times right. Afternoon performance in Manchester, and Leeds in the evening." Indeed, I had an uncle who was a magnificent bass/baritone, and on many occasions he sang as a soloist with the likes of Isobelle Bailey and Kathleen Ferrier. Amusingly, he was always a dairy farmer at heart, and when the BBC offered him a contract, he refused, on the grounds that his cows needed him more than they. (He used to sing hymns to the cows, and swore that it improved their milk yield). Even now, there are choirs who roam around singing Messiah wherever they can, and I know that Philip Tordoff, (Organist Emeritus at Halifa Minster), used to do an awful lot of organ accompaniment for these events. He likes to tell the story of the time he played the harpsichord continuo part at St George's Hall, Bradford. "It was so bloomin' loud, I played a semitone up and no-one even noticed!" Then there was another organist, who famously played for one Messiah, where the large chapel organ was still hand-blown. During the "Amen Chrous," he leapt off the organ, ran around to the side and shouted, "Pump you bugger....pump! We need more wind!" Then there were (still are), the great Carol Concerts, when some of the more famous Brass Bands like Black Dyke would play a combination of carols and seasonal delights such as Leroy Andreson's "Sleigh Ride." It was always near Christmas when some of the bands would conveniently open up some fund raising campaign; be it for new music or new uniforms. The band being something of a Christmas feature much loved by the natives, it was a good time to pluck at the heart strings. There is a famous story about Haworth Brass Band, when one of their ranks went out with a collection box knocking on doors. "Hello love, I'm from t'aworth band and we're collectin' for t'new uniforms." "Eh?" Replied the old girl. "I said......" (he repeated the reason for his visit) The old girl cupped her ear and said, "Tha'll af ta speak up lad, I'm very deaf." Repeating his patter once more, at greatly increased volume, the old girl still looked blank and shook her head. With that, the bandsman turned away, and said out of the corner of his mouth, "Oh bugger yer." The old girl replied, "Aye, 'an bugger 'aworth band an'all." Incidentally, talking of Haworth, it was Charlotte Bronte who described the sound of the organ at the parish church as, "rollroarthunderandsqueakandotheroreimus." She obviously wrote better things than this, but at least she gave us a literary straw to clutch at. As for the quality of the non-conformist choirs, I swear that they were all as good as the Hudderfield Choral, and they worked all year to perform "Olivet to Calvary", "The Creation" and "Messiah," taking enormous pride in doing so to the best of their abilities. It didn't get any better at Hudderfield, it just got a lot louder and grander. Sir David Wilcocks was the master, and he would often start rehearsals by saying, "I hear that you have some quite good singers in York-shire." That got them fired up! MM

====================== .....and his D major. I have a copy. MM

============================== I think we can pass on the Honorary Doctorate! I was merely going from memory about what I have read previously at various times. However, an apology first of all, because in suggesting that the point had been missed by including schools, puiblic schools and choir schools, I had failed to read the original posting properly. Now I understand the reason for the inclusion thereof, and being rather out of touch with choral music these days, I'll leave that to others and settle for a humble honorary diploma. Elaborating on points made earlier, I think you are right to suggest that the great surge in choral music came in the latter quarter of the century, and this seems to co-incide with a huge wave of organ-building from about 1870 onwards, when it became something of a major industry. Now quite how or why organs moved out of galleries and into chancels, I am not sure, unless it was all part of the anglo-catholic "show," where ceremony and observance blended with theatre. Hoever, if we apply a little logic, the non-confomists had their central pulpit, their choir gallery behind, and an organ behind that: everything being focused forward. The same was also the case in the town-halls, where huge organs supported choral societies with perhaps 500 singers.....it was enormous music-making, and mighty impressive. From my own childhood, I have distinct memories of "Messiah" sung by hundreds, with an orchestra and a large organ offering support, and it wasn't a one-off affair, but something which had two or three performances, with different star soloists, all played before a full house. That tradition goes right back to 1850 or so, and in the case of the Halifax Choral Society, earlier still to around 1820 (?). The brass band movement had a similar following, with massed band concerts, competitions, local rivalry and a number of hilarious stories and mishaps associated with it. I'm sure this is the source, but I'm not sure I could prove it. As for the North/South divide, I wonder if it was quite so important as we feel it should be? Perhaps its no co-incidence that the choral/organ phenomenon developed alongside the route of railways....London, Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham, Bradford, Leeds, Newcastle, Hull, Huddersfield, Halifax, Liverpool (the list goes on).......all important commercial and artistic centres. Something which I feel is relevant, is a statement I heard on the BBC, when the history of Manchester featured in the history of Britain. (Was it the Jeremy Issacs series?) Anyway, the statement was, "If you wanted to see the future, you went to Manchester." I suspect that in the mid-19th C, people actually came North to marvel at this bold new age, the vast productivity, the sweeping changes and the artistic endeavours. Indeed, there's a whole brace of organists and important composers/conductors who did just that, and if they lived or worked in the south, or took up appointments at the major universities/cathedrals, then they would take that with them. London, after all, was a rather squalid, over-crowded place, full of disease and pestilence, until someone built a decent sewage system, and Prince Albert's vision of art and music created the Kensington museums and arts complex now well established around the Royal Albert Hall and his monument. So although I cannot be certain, I'm fairly sure that parish music started in the north, for the reasons I have already mentioned; possibly because it was only a small step from the already established non-conformist choirs and their potent hymn-singing, and the huge surge of interest in big scale choral music. Imagine what it must have been like, when someone said, "Mr Mendelssohn has written an oratorio for us." It doesn't come much better does it? Furthermore, the organ captured the imagination of people, and from memory, I cannot recall which of the Bronte sisters got carried away on hearing Branwell Bronte play the organ, but whichever it was (probably Emily), she invented a silly nonsense word which I can't remember, but went something like, "thunderwhispersoulmoverwondermachine." (If I find it, I'll insert the actual word). I suspect that any PhD will only be awarded to the person who can painstakingly unravel the sequence of events, and tie it up with some sort of wider musical chronology....again, I leave it to others. MM

============================== Have you never heard of Brahma & Liszt? MM

========================= That's just drawing attention to yourself! MM

=============================== Thanks Barry. The information is fairly pouring in at the moment, and I've even discovered the name of the financial backer, who was a major shareholder of the Compton Company, J Martin White, the liberal Scottish politician born in New York, who made his fortune from the Jute trade. Incredibly, he also gave financial support to Robert Hope-Jones, as well as being the second president of the "Organ Club." He had a Hope-Jones pipe-organ in the family pile in Scotland, I understand. J Martin-White died suddenly in 1928, during his term as President, but whether this had an immediate effect on the Compton company, I cannot say. What I do know, is that this marked the peak of theatre organ output, which virtually came to and end ten years later. For our friends in America, I've also discovered that the organ-builder Walter Holtkamp journeyed to the Compton works in Acton, and thereafter had at least one 32ft Polyphone sent over; possibly for reasons of cost-saving due to the fact that a 12-note extension from American Organ Supply cost $1500, whereas the Compton "Cube" cost only $1200. MM

[quote name='David Drinkell' You are less compelling when defending Pedal Organ Mixtures 8rks (19.22.26.29.33.36.40.43). quote] ========================== Oh well, if you haven't got the pedal technique to play descants with your feet.................. MM

========================== I had to smile ruefully when I read this, because it reminds me about the Royal Engineers during in WWII, who wanted to set out explosive mines on the dirt roads somewhere on the Chinese Pennisula, to prevent enemy movement and action. The problem was, that when the mines were buried, they left a very visible patch in the roads, which could be seen, with the result that the enemy drivers just steered around them. With enormous ingenuity, I think it was the late Sir Michael Bentine, who came up with the idea of making a mock pile of elephant droppings, which they covered the patches with. The enemy drivers thought it fun to drive over them......kerboom! They were a remarkable generation of brilliant and often devious minds. The more I read about John Compton and those around him, the more I begin to wonder if they weren't like crackpot boffins; forever inventing things for the sheer fun of inventing things, but perhaps I do them an injustice. I know that an electrical engineer of some status, was shown a Compton relay cabinet, which was far more compact than anything which had been made previously. After studying it for some time, he is reputed to have said, "I don't believe what I'm looking at, it is absolutely brilliant." Unfortunately, for someone who is attempting to gather all the information together, I've never been inside a Compton theatre organ; though I have played many. On the other hand, I've helped tune and maintain, (as well as disassemble), Wurlitzer organs, but that doesn't help very much does it? I'm quite looking forward to the moment that I feel the need to go out and see things for myself, and perhaps take photographs. The thought occurs to me, that I have a recorder, from which I can get half a dozen notes quite easily.......ten pipes plus a bit of Compton ingenuity and we've got a whole flute register....at least in single notes. MM

Here's interesting, as the Welsh would say. It's a list of musical publications by John Goss targetted at church choirs/organists:- Just look how early some of these are. Parochial Psalmody (London, 1826) The Monthly Sacred Minstrel (London, 1833–c.1835) Chants, Ancient and Modern (London, 1841) (with James Turle) Cathedral Services Ancient and Modern (two volumes, 1846) (with William Mercer) The Church Psalter and Hymnbook (London, 1855) The Organist's Companion (London, 1864) This tends to suggest that there was a growing demand for publications, though it does seem to be restricted to hymns and psalmody. The existence of a publishing network does, however, suggest that any new form of worship which included service settings amd/or anthems, would become widely available very quickly. Could it be, that there was already a move towards parish choirs in churches across the country, which may have started with hymns & psalms, but may well have developed into more ambitious music as the 19th century progressed? MM MM

================================ I used to love going to these houses of heresy, with the smell of pine and beeswax in the nostrils, and an imposing gallery organ. So many have gone, but it's rather sad that this one had to go too, considering the pedigree and historic nature of it. I expect the good organists of Burton will probably feel as crestfallen as I, when the great Brindley instrument at Dewsbury was thrown in the skip. At least it is going to be saved, and I suppose it's not THAT far to Berlin for the dedicated few. What a pity the Brindley couldn't have gone to Germany somewhere, from where the inspiration for the organ originated. MM

============================== This is why I mentioned Walmisley; one of the earlier composers in the canticles category. Wasn't he London based originally? Pimlico springs to mind, but I haven't checked. However, David Harrison, although making an excellent point about public school choirs and choir schools, actually misses the target. The astounding thing, (and it IS astounding), is that the parish music movement began in the parishes, but may well have poached experienced adult singers from the nonconformists and the early choral societies. (I think I'm right in saying that the Halifax Choral Society started in the early part of the 19th century, and may have had a connection with Mendelssohn somewhat later). The great threat to the C-of-E was the growth of nonconformist denominations; many of which (such as the Methodists and Congregationalists) developed a fine tradition of choral singing. We should never underestimate the Congregational church, in which they not only sang hymns and anthems, but pointed psalms also; people like Dr Gauntlett travelling around the country to teach the art of pointed psalm-singing and chants. (The "Songs of Praise" hymn book is a goldmine of fine hymns and chants). When it comes to school-choirs, we can more or less forget it, because in the inner cities, there was virtually no education for children of any age, other than the bare minimum of Sunday School teaching. The following comes from a Leeds City Council web-site, which very usefully covers the history of Leeds:- Most poor children had little or no education. In the early 1800s Sunday Schools taught reading, writing and arithmetic. Lancastrian and National Schools were founded in Leeds. There were also factory schools like the one founded by John Marshall, and there were church Schools. But few children went to school at all, and those that did went for only a short time - for about 4½ years between the ages of 4 and 9. The Education Act of 1870 led to the foundation of Board Schools, which provided free elementary education, compulsory from 1876. Provision of free secondary education followed. The importance of Leeds cannot be underestimated, and when Dr Hook became the incumbent at the parish church, his overriding priority was the education of children. A giant in the history of the city, it is hardly surprising that a large bronze statue is erected in the City Square to his memory. However, his example and the Leeds model, soon found backing from the many progressive liberals, (many of whom were connected with the growth of the Congregational churches), and they were succesful in bringing about compulsory schooling as a legal requirement, with the estabishment of Board Schools etc. It actually went further than this in certain places, such as Bournville and the village of Saltaire, just down the road from me. At the latter, Sir Titus Salt not only created a massive factory complex, (based on Alpaca wool and Mohair), but also built a model village, where there was a hospital, alms houses, a town hall, beautiful open spaces and parks, but more importantly, child welfare and education as well as a very fine library. (The Cadburys were quakers, if I recall correctly). What were the great pastimes for the factory workers and their families, and who developed those pastimes? The answer is music: especially choral music and brass band music, with glee clubs bands and choral societies springing up here there and everywhere. The people who organised all this and trained the members, were usually local organists, and so effective was the campaign, special trains were arranged so that choirs and bands could partake in the many festivals around the country, in the spirit of friendly rivalry which still exists to-day in the brass band movement. It was from this, and partly due to the need to recruit new blood, that school music took off, and many spectacularly good choirs emerged as a result. (I sang in just this sort of school choir, where the standard was phenomenal). Let's not forget that the middle classes are a product of the scientific and industrial age, and at that time, you were either a landowner, an industrialist (possibly both), one of the few highly educated professionals or a member of the working class, and the extraordinary explosion in brass and choral music came from the grass roots of the latter; completely confounding the indifference and arrogance of what the C-of-E had become in those early days of the industrial revolution, and which had led to the breakaway non-conformist denominations. It was the genius of clergymen like Dr Hook which exploited and championed this extraordinary groundswell movement, as at Leeds PC; setting the official seal of approval on art, education, self improvement and the need to develop an educated middle class, capable of meeting the needs of new technology, science and social cohesion. When it comes to choral music, the glees were important, and when the Tractarian movement powered its way around the nation, putting art-music to religious use, it was but one small step to founding big church choirs. Many local organists turned to composing: some successfully and others less so, but at my local Anglican Church, I used to rifle through reams and reams of copper-leaf, hand-written manuscripts. These consisted of anthems and service settings composed by a former O & C; the son of a local 19th century industrialist by the name of Marriner. (I don't know if they're still there in the music cupboards). Presumably, others did similar things, but I expect that the best music survived, while most of the local compositions fell out of reglar use as better material came onto the market. How is my PhD coming along? MM

=========================== Fame requires repetition....... The last time I visited a student at Wadham, I was on the receiving-end of a microwave chilli con carni and a microwave Cox's Pippin with instant custard. That was certainly the stuff of repetition, I can tell you. MM

================================ Thinking out loud, so to speak, if I were to start investigating the growth of choral music in the latter half of the 19th century, I would look at some of the earlier music, as well as some of the demographics. I'm not getting fixated on Leeds, but as an afterthought, I realised that many important musicians were connected with the city; among them C V Stanford. If we consider how the fame of the 1857 (?) Schulze at Armley spread, it's perhaps a pointer towards the excellent communications which then existed and the nature of the British "music club" which travelled freely between London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds; all vastly important centres of manufacturing, with a wealth never since rivalled. I have little doubt but that the choral music of Leeds PC would have been highly regarded and "exported" around the country. I suspect that this was the most important factor of all; coupled to the desparate need to deal with slums, poverty, child labour, no education and little health-care.....it was a time bomb waiting to go off. (Life expectancy was less than 40 years in the big cities, with infant mortality at an astronomical rate). Moving swiftly on, what about the earlier composers such as Walmisley, (anyone know his D MAJOR setting?). He ended up at Cambridge (Trinity?), and clearly wrote service settings etc. The early service settings may be the clue to how things developed and where, but as my memory fails for the most part, I'll leave that quest to others unless I stumble across the Holy Grail. Of course, the other interesting side-show was the choral society movement, which must have been well established, and which was probably dominated by the non-conformist choirs. I think Dr Hook at Leeds virtually "stole" choristers and important non-conformist churchmen, so it wasn't that difficult to recruit singers with a bit of bribery and corrupton, I suspect. St John's College, Cambridge has, I understand, a fairly unbroken record of service singing since it opened its doors. Interesting aside about Cardinal Newman by the way. He was a curate at a high tractarian C-of-E church in Bingley, West Yorkshire, only a few miles away from Leeds, before he saw the light and the call of spaghetti bolognese. Of course, the politics of the various denominations at the time must have been very competitive, and like Tesco, they would probably be obsessed with "market share." If art imitates life, the comedy film "The Missionary" (written by Michael Palin), where a young clergyman works among "fallen women," captures the spirit of the age superbly. MM

Here's a rather nice find on You Tube, with an excellent Trumpet Tune (real trumpet and trumpeter) accompanied by the Compton organ at Downside Abbey. What a superb sound for an extension organ! MM

================================ Apart from the obvious fact that S S Wesley was VERY important in choral music, I shall watch the thread with interest, because I cannot claim to be anything other than a skeletal historian in such matters. MM