MusingMuso

=============================== A fact I failed to impart concerning Doctor Hook, was that he was a curate in.....wait for it....the Isle of Wight, but not at St James's, Ryde. There's the obvious link between the earlier choral tradition and the Oxford/Tractarian movement as he developed it in Leeds. MM

=============================== How absolutely fascinating and helpful! This makes complete sense, because I was aware of the American conncetion with the "idea" of a 32ft Harmonics, which as you say, appears in various organs in America. What I didn't realise was a similar connection with the Polyphone, which I suppose should not come as a complete surprise. I have to confess that when it comes to Mixtures as a part of the manual choruses, I somehow doubted that Walter Holtkamp needed any help, because the results (even to-day) speak for themselves. The organ at Syracuse University is just wonderful tonally, and were it not for the EP action (electric?) favoured at all times by Holtkamp, I suspect that he had little to learn from the neo-baroque movement. He was an instinctively brilliant tonal-artist, whom I would rate as highly as G Donald-Harrison and Charlie Fisk. Of course, taking a more panoramic view, it does show how there was a fruitful and amiable exchange of ideas to and fro the Atlantic, and similar conncetions are very apprent not only with G Donald Harrison, Skinner and Willis, but with the whole organ-reform thing, which was as much an American quest as it was German. Certainly, Ralph Downes was formulating his tonal ideas in America, long before work commenced on the organ of the Royal Festival Hall, and a whole brace of academics went to Steinkerken in the Elb region of Germany, as our board member Karl Kropft know very well. Indeed, we spent quite some time tracking down a man by the name of Bartle, who had worked for a German/English music publisher.....I think it was Schotts. John Mander, our kind host, knows (I believe) John Brombough, from the time he spent in Germany, so the exchange of ideas has continued ever since. Big the world and the oceans may be, but organ-building is quite a tightly-knit club in many ways. MM

======================== I'm quite sure you are probably right. I've never actually investigated the chronology of it, but just a note of caution. Leeds may have had an early 19th century choir, but it had fallen into a parlous state my the time Dr Hook arrived as vicar, meaning that there was a virtual reformation of the choral tradition, and more importantly, one based in and around the parish, where so much was done to "improve the lives of the working classes." Interestingly, the great brass band movement, which had its roots in the working class and trade union movements, was the direct response to the middle-class down style of "improvement." I suspect that the competition between the classes possibly averted civil war. Further information comes to light since writing the above. Dr Hook, the Vicar of Leeds, was a supporter of the Tractarian movement, therefore including Leeds in the Oxford Movement and the Choral Revival. Here is the link:- http://www.yorkshiredailyphoto.com/2009/09...uare-leeds.html MM PS: Although irrelevant, the following information, (taken for the Leeds City Council website), made me chuckle. Leeds was nothing of not interesting:- The distinguished musical tradition of the acoustically superb St Anne's Roman Catholic Cathedral in Cookridge Street, is perhaps less widely recognised. It can however be traced back to the opening of this great church, in 1904. The Norman and Beard organ, built concurrently with the construction of the Cathedral, has been described as one of the most notable examples of Edwardian organ building in Great Britain. St Anne's also claims an unusual world record - that of having had the youngest ever Cathedral organist, Henry Chambers, who at the time of his appointment in 1913 was aged just eleven!

========================== For a bit of a techie like myself, I don't think it is at all surprising, because it works at so many levels.....electrical, electronic, production engineering, theoretical, practical, moulding technology, craft, voicing, design engineering....maybe even a hint of mass production technique. It is a unique story which requires great care in the telling of, and I make no bones about the fact that I still have a learning curve to complete. MM

It didn't take long to find the basic facts from Wikipedia:- The Choir of Leeds Parish Church was founded by Vicar Richard Fawcett probably as early as 1815, and was certainly in existence by 1818 (from which year there is accounting evidence for choristers' laundry). The Choir of Leeds Parish Church - Boys and Men - was, from its origins, a charge on the Church Rate; and, in what was then a largely Non-conformist town, a none-too-popular one. By the 1830s, the Choir's resourcing had been taken over by a list of voluntary subscribers. On arrival as Vicar of Leeds in 1837, Walter Farquhar Hook said he found "the surplices in rags and the books in tatters". Hook set at once to work to revitalise the huge Parish and to provide a Church suitable for what he termed a "good" service; the choral provision formed a significant part of this endeavour and, from the opening of the "new" Church in 1841, choral worship has been maintained on weekdays as well as on Sundays. Organists since 1842 include the great Samuel Sebastian Wesley (1842–1849), Dr (later Sir) Edward Bairstow (1906–1913) and - nearer our own day - two musicians trained at Gloucester Cathedral by Dr Herbert Sumsion - Dr (Alfred) Melville Cook (1937–1956) and Dr Donald Hunt OBE (1957–1975). ----------------------------- I shall have to check, but the area around Leeds PC was once a large slum area if I recall correctly, and this was the recruiting ground for the boy choristers. What an education THEY got, if that be the case..........I shall find out more. MM

====================================== Well, one of the foremost places where the revival got underway, was Leeds Parish Church. Considering that this is a fairly modestly proportioned church, the organ is far larger than many a cathedral organ, and OC's included the likes of Bairstow in due course. Was it Dr Hook, a past vicar, who said he would risk going to jail to introduce a surpliced choir of men & boys? I feel fairly sure that St. Matthew's Northampton will feature somewhere. This was the Sir Sidney Nicholson church, was it not? I'll have a dig about. MM

============================= Excellent.....I now have that from three different sources, which seems to confirm it. Could it be, that at peak in the 15 years between 1930 and 1945, they could have been churning out just under an organ per week, plus all the electronic instruments? Other than Wurlitzer and perhaps Moller in America, did any other company ever come close to that sort of production level, I wonder? To put it amusingly into perspective, it may well be that in the time it took Muller to build the organ at Haarlem, (7 years), John Compton could have built 300. No wonder it was a big factory compared to others. MM

============================= I'm sure you don't have to apologise. It can get quite complicated with Compton, as I'm sure you will appreciate. However, the organ at Trinity was certainly a large one to start with, and the extension ranks are relatively few. As you will know, the City Hall instrument has a pedal division of some 33 stops, (including 5 or 6 percussions which had Bairstow in an apoplectic state), but almost all the flues are entirely straight. (20 + ranks of them!) The information about the two-note polyhone pipes is interesting. With regard to empliyees going to other companies, I am grateful for the Casavant connection. Another former employee ended up in Australia.....Lawrence I think, was his name....I have the details somewhere. He continued to build fine examples of extension organs, which are highly regarded down under. I'm still absolutely intrigued by the possible H,N & B connection, and even more intrigued by the Compton supply of Mixture ranks to one of the American greats, Walter Holtkamp. It occured to me yesterday, that all this shredding away of the outer-wrapper, to reveal the contents, simply wouldn't have been possible before the computer age, but so quick and efficient is the internet, I constantly find things in the most unexpected of places. Of course, putting meat back on the skeleton is going to be much more difficult....and creative. Without company records, and only anecdotal information, any semblance to chronology really has to be abandoned, which is how people tend to write about things past as a kind of structure and discipline. That's why it has to be a creative undertaking, but at least the patents shine a little light on the development and chronology. I wonder, did Compton switch entirely to war-effort work during WWII? Does anyone know? The reason I ask comes from a statement I read, which includes the line "........after the war in 1947, Compton resumed building organs." If they were only involved in war-work connected with electrical equipment (?) and RADAR, it makes the output of the firm even more impressive in London, because it would reduce actual organ production time to about 20-25 years. MM

=========================== Only on the other side of the harbour, I would have thought. :angry: MM

=============================== Thanks Tony. I think David Drinknell had worked out the same and suggested this as an option. To keep abreast of my research, I came across one or two interesting factoids; one of which has yet to be confirmed at source. Factoid 1) Compton Polyphones came in THREE types. CCCC versions, EEEE version and, the version I'd never heard of, in which one pipe plays two notes. Factoid 2) I stumbled across an interesting statement. "Hill, Norman & Beard, who supplied pipework to Compton....etc" Factoid 3) John Compton supplied mixture pipework to Walter Holtkamp in America. Intriguing and intriguering.......... I'm sitting on a small mountain of such information. MM

============================ There is truth and fallacy contained in the above. What has Halifax got? You have only TWO 16ft pedal flues....big wood and little wood; the 16ft Geigen is from the Great and the Dulciana is from the Choir. Our brief was to create a 35 speaking stop organ without extension: a limitation too far in view of the useful pedal derivates and extensions which could be realised. Now let's debunk a few myths. A 16ft Principal is not an absolute. Schnitger and others often used wood basses and many baroque builders used wooden Posaunes. Schnitger also used leather on the shallots to soften and broaden the tone. The mixtures are usually made of plain, hammered lead, and as such, are quite dull in tone....nothing ever screeches; no matter how high pitched. (Partially due to the considerable resonance of brick hall churches). Now I would absolutely agree with the premise that many instruments, (particularly overlarge instruments), tend to be buried or scattered here there and everywhere, and Halifax is a good enough example of the latter. This naturally has an effect on the tonal integrity of an instrument, as well as posing special problems to the player. However, this is often over-egged, because when you play an organ like the Bavokerk, Haarlem, it pays to look upwards, to see just how far away some of the pipework is, as well as just how far to left and right are the pedal towers. You can hear this very clearly when sitting at the console, but of course, down the cathedral, it all comes together as one piece. I don't fully understand the comment about Buxtehude's organ, because it was Mendelssohn who abandoned concerts due to the lack of proper pedal organs in England. It was because of this that important minds met, and what followed was the Hill/Gauntlett revolution; no doubt thanks to discussions between Mendelssohn, Prince Albert, Dr Gauntlett and William Hill. (Germany 2 - England 2) (I feel sure there were others involved also). The last thing I would personally want, is an English organ which sounds like a German one, even if the one I play sounds like a Netherlands one! :angry: There is, and was and continue to be, as a result of that revolution, organs with impressively independent pedal organs. Listen to the fabulous pedal department at Chester, or the awesome variety in the largely independent pedal at Hull City Hall, (most of it Forster & Andrews), and then check out the pedal organ at Holy Trinity, Hull, where a huge variety of sound is provided by way of extension and duplication, in addition to the original stops prior to the Compton re-build. The comment about the Germans having something good which we do not want, I find amusing. When did the great changes occur in English organbuilding? I think you'll find that they exactly co-incided with the German influences of Fr Smith, John Snetzler (Swiss, but working in Germany tradition of the Netherlands), Edmund Schulze and, with the advent of travel and recordings, the influences of Silbermann and Schnitger. MM PS: 'Recently we heard plenty of nasty noises from the Continent in Messrs. Clutton & Jones's efforts on the Third Programme, including a cynical reference to one of our best organists who coined the phrase 'nasty noise'. How very apt - Alkmaar excepted! There is no doubt that people like (Noel Bonavia-Hunt) and the late Colonel Dixon knew what a proper British organ should consist of. One can only hope that there are still many who have ears to hear!' (Maurice Forsyth-Grant, Musical Opinion, June 1957) Now how's that for dual standards?

========================= It'a not that fascinating because the Cavaille-Coll name was so prestigious, along with that of Schulze, both organ-builders supplied, (or perhaps had supplied), pipes which bore their origin. Local to me is an interesting organ, which I mentioned a few years ago. A fairly ordinary but worthy Laycock & Bannister organ from the 19th century, was added to at very considerable cost. I think I'm right in suggesting that the solitary Vox Humana (added later), cost a staggering £100, when whole organs could be built for £300. By the exquisite sound of it, I would wager, (if I were a betting man), that this rank is by Cavaille-Coll, but I've never been able to confirm it. I seem to recall that it is also made of tin, but I cannot be sure. Over the hill at Halifax, was the "mock-Schulze" by Forster & Andrews, at All Soul's, Haley Hill; containing both Schulze and Cavaille-Coll ranks in the same 4-manual instrument. It was quite common, if not an everyday event, to include such prestigious pipework in new organs in the 19th century; fashion being what fashion was and still is. MM

==================================== I may be wrong, so don't quote me, but if the Vox Humana is still with us, the giveaway would be the use of pure-tin, which I understand was the usual thing for Cavaille-Coll. MM

========================= OK then, be blown away by this, in spite of a bit of distortion in places:- I find this quite stunning; especially since it doesn't rely on either couplers or pedal reeds. I think Bach, lying in state a few feet below, would be very happy with this. MM

======================== As David Drinknell points out, the Bavo organ may be a "one off" instrument. Indeed it is, and possibly the leat "authentic" historic organ in the Netherlands; being at least as much modern Marcussen as it is Muller from the 18th century. It's also an organ which is unusually good as a vehicle for much romantic music; especially Reger, with a little help from your friends in the absence of any playing aids. So perhaps we could draw a veil over this instrument; though I have heard the music of Frank Bridge played on this organ, and choral accompaniment would certainly be possible unless a Tuba was required. Of the schemes submitted thus far, I think you'll find that mine includes a 16 to 4ft pedal chorus with Mixture, in just 8 stops. I really don't undertand why a complete and independent pedal organ should be incompatible with anything; assumning that we are referring to a "small cathedral scheme." The detail would be in the voicing rather than the stop-list, surely? Glorious, (peerless?) though Alkmaar may be, I can absolutely guarantee that as an accompaniment organ, it would be utterly useless. Amusingly, though the Netherlands has so many historic instruments, barely nothing was ever written specifically for them, and they did not inspire a national style of organ-composition, unlike the organs of Cavaille-Coll and our friends in Paris. Their main role was as accompaniment to the congregations and as instruments for metrical psalm improvisation. So returning to our "small cathedral organ," what possible style of instrument would not benefit from a fully independent pedal organ? Early romantic like the organ built by Holdich at Lichfield Cathedral? Full bodied romantic like the Gray & Davison stop-list at Chester Cathedral? Late romantic, like the Compton organ of Wakefield Cathedral? (In spite of 5 manuals, really quite a small cathedral organ). What exactly is so special about the accompaniment role, that it renders an independent pedal chorus redundant? I just don't understand, possibly because I have been called "more stupid than chicken." It seems to me, that around 1900, everything went bananas, and the tradition of the organ was abandonded in favour of pretty noises and extreme expression. This is precisely why the work of Hope-Jones led so readily to the orchestral and cinema style of instruments, which in the right hands can sound excellent, but more often sound a mess. No! I'll tell you what is incompatible. It is the belief that you can combine exceedingly powerful, Schulze-inspired chorus-work, with orchestral tones and opaque flutes and reeds: something akin to musical alchemy. It's a tribute to Arthur Harrison that he made it work after a fashion, but I can't help but think that we might all have benefitted if Lt Col Dixon had been shot with his own gun. Meanwhile, Thomas Hill and T C Lewis were building PROPER organs, but few recognised the fact. MM

============================== I don't dislike ALL British organ-music by any meansl just quite a lot of it. I actually do like the "Master Tallis" epic by Howells, so credit where it is due.......once! :angry: A fully independent pedal is better in theory than in practice, is it? Hear these pedal organs and die happy:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoTBPDS1pEo MM

========================== Well, the revue of the Selby recording of the Reger "Hallelujah! Gott zu loben, " by Germani, almost gets a thumbs-up from the reviewer, whoever J.N.M. may be. Here is what he has to say:- "The most notable item is perhaps the Reger (of which this is the only available recording). The work is really an enormously extended Fantasia and Fugue woven around not only the chorale melody but its harmonisation as well. The result is no more deft or ingratiating than is usually the case with Reger's music. But Germani is able to use carefully chosen registrations and his own wonderful command of rhythm to lend the work a shapely coherence that is truly remarkable." I have no idea who JNM is or was, and frankly, I don't care if he was the personal organist to the Pope, but the man is/was a twit. :angry: The work hangs brilliantly around the Chorale, the inversion, harmonisation and augmentation of it, while the Fugue is based on a counterpoint to the Chorale, which allows the Chorale theme to thunder out in due course in all its glory, with a brilliant use of stretto. It is only 15 minutes long, and far from "enormously extended." No wonder Reger read reviews and threw them down the toilet after using them appropriately. I wonder what JNM had to say about Eric Thiman's music? I feel sure that he would be at home with it. MM

=============================== I've read many things which Stepen Roberts has written, and he is a fine scholar and organist. He has also toured extensively in Eastern Europe, which is why we have conversed about many things over the past few years. I shall have to study the Arnstadt article closely when I have time, but I just wonder if I may dare to question a basic assumption about "Bach Organs?" I suspect that Bach didn't regularly play the best organs, but he was certainly aware of them. I further suspect that Bach was ever keen to improve his lot, which really meant seeking court positions first and foremost. (He even applied for a position in Poland). I have not the slightest evidence for suggesting this, but I just wonder if the quality of this or that organ really made any difference to Bach's life, work and output. What we do know, is that he travelled, and would certainly have known the great Schnitger organ at Hamburg, as well as various Silbermann instruments. Indeed, he may have been envious of the wealth of the Hanseatic ports, as compared with his native, rather rural Thuringia. The period 1650-1725 was a formative period, when so many developments and changes occured in music; just as changes and developments were taking place in the art of organ-building. Might I be bold enough as to suggest that the finest "Bach Organs" were built after his death? However, this is a bit of an irrelevance, because we are in the area of speculation. What we do know, is that Bach certainly had at his command various instruments with fully developed pedal sections, and that is vital knowledge to all those who would play Bach's music. There is a considerable difference between the sound and sonorities of an organ (such as the one I play), which requires manual to pedal couplers, and one which has a full pedal chorus, scaled independently of the manual choruses. It is a truly breath-taking experience to draw the full pedal at Haarlem, Zwolle or Alkmaar, and play a Bach pedal solo such as the F major Toccata. They have a depth and grandeur which cannot be obtained in any other way, and which are so perfectly suited to the music of Bach. So to partially answer the question, I would suggest that a "proper" pedal organ is one which balances the manual fluework, both in terms of range and in terms of the appropriate sonority. So if we see a large manual chorus at 16, 6,4, 2.2/3, 2 VI and III (reeds often NOT used with the chorus), then I would suggest that the "proper" pedal would be 32,16,8,4 and a good sized Mixture, with perhaps 16ft and 8 reeds. Proportion and independence is surely the key? If the manual chorus is only 8,4,2 & IV, then 16,8,4,and IV is the appropriate balance without couplers: it being possible to drop the pedal Mixture in favour of one or more reeds at 16 & 8. Naturally, softer piece require a softer pedal, and Chorale melodies need to be catered for, so even with a relatively modest instrument, I would suggest that a "proper" pedal organ would need at least 16,16,8,4 with at least a 16 reed and ideally an 8ft reed to provide a Cantus line when required. Oddly enough, if we go back in time to the mid 19th century in England, there were organs with exactly that sort of independence; especially around Manchester/Liverpool, but then, they did have the best Bach players! http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=N10787 http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=R01924 http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=N10808 MM

================================== That can be fraught with problems. A very pretty young lady listened to me playing Vierne's "Berceuse," and foolishly claimed that, on the basis of just this one performance, she could fall in love with me. "I think there's something you need to know......." I replied. MM

================================ What on earth has this got to do with pedal organs? Fact: European organs had, and still have, extensive pedal organs Fact: Most of the mainstream music written for the organ, (including that from the normally contrapuntally lazy French), calls for a decent pedal organ. Fact: Bach is dead and we cannot ask him Fact: Many drivers cannot steer properly, but they still build cars with steering-wheels. So on the basis that the existence and USE of a PROPER pedal organ, (rather than a set of boom boxes), is general knowledge rather than the stuff of scholarship, could someone please tell me why it is usually the last thing on an organist's shopping list? MM

====================== Well it is in the case of the English pedal organ, which threatened to become highly developed in the 19th century; especially in the work of Hill/Gauntlett and certain northern builders in Manchester and the surrounding area. The fact that the organ was relegated to the role of being a poor orchestral synthesiser, may well explain why English organ-music is not generally highly regarded in the world to-day, with one or two notable exceptions. European and even American organ-music is of a much higher calibre, by and large. Now if we had stayed on course and absorbed the European tradition, perhaps we might have a decent school of organ composition. MM

Why, in this day and age, with the benefit of modern scholarship, do people even contemplate a speciication for an instrument which lacks a proper pedal department? Are they nonodexters or merely legless? I would want a proper pedal organ even with only 20 stops in total, let alone the luxury of 35. MM

================================= They exist apparently, and after a bit of a dig I've come across one. http://members.socket.net/~rtaylor/aeolian_pipe_organ.html OMG........Look at this for engineering complexity:- http://members.socket.net/~rtaylor/concertola_player.html No mention of mercury-dip contacts, but mention of silver contacts and relay boxes etc. http://members.socket.net/~rtaylor/tracing...ion_wiring.html It probably means that the one I stumbled across in my youth may have been unique in the UK. MM

======================== You see? I'm completely ignorant of these machines. I shall have to dig on the net a bit and find out more. MM

================================== I know you can't make judgements on the basis of an mp3 recording, but I get the distinct impression that Auckland sounds like an old Ernest Skinner instrument. MM