Goldsmith
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Posts posted by Goldsmith
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Was anyone else on the Board at this performance on Saturday? It was superbly done by City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra and Chorus but for me spoilt by an ill balanced use of the organ, particularly at the climaxes. I am therefore interested if anyone else had the same experience, and if they were seated lower down the hall whether the balance was better. I have since tried to listen on the BBC Listen Again facility but it is very congested and the quality is just not good enough to form an opinion.
We were sat in the Circle half way round at 45 degrees to the platform in block R where you are at the same level as much of the pipe work but some distance away. At the big climaxes, particularly the big one early on at figure 35, the sound of the orchestra and chorus completely disappeared under full pedal, and heavy reeds etc. This happened again on several other occasions (including one point the other forces were being accompanied by what I think was a rough pedal reed still out) and rather spoilt the performance, although the balance was better in the second half. I did wonder if registration adjustments had been made in the interval.
I also wondered if the balance was better in the lower regions of the hall where some of the volume from the organ may be masked by the orchestra canopy.
This is not the first time I have experienced this effect with organ and orchestra at the RAH. I wonder what guidance is given to visiting organists (in the same way it is at St. Paul’s) who will have little rehearsal time with the other forces involved. On this occasion the organist ought to have had a minder in the Circle at the rehearsal to warn him of the effect he was creatin, but can only assume in the floor of the hall the balance was ok.
To me it was a case of having all this power but using more than was required by the music. The first performance was in Birmingham Town Hall and I am sure the organ there at the time (wasn’t it reckoned to be underpowered for use with chorus and orchestra so a Bombarde division was added at the last rebuild?) would not have caused such a devastating and unmusical effect.
From where I sat in the Grand Tier, the balance was perfect; stunning perfomances all round. I think I've come to realize that contrary to what's often said, the organ is really NOT best heard from the Circle: the big reeds and mixtures are almost unbearable and the sound is top-heavy. From where I sat, the organ provided perfect support (and again in Bluebeard's Castle last night).
After all, the RAH isn't the only building where a great instrument is at the mercy of the acoustic in a big space. The Westminster Cathedral organ, for example, sounds similarly unbearable in the rear quarter of the nave, but completely puny from the Apse.
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I am only guessing but I sense that your tutoring in the law of tort took place a long time before the Defamation Act 1996. I think, too, that you are forgetting that "malice" is factored in, now, in court.
Thank you. There is a quick introduction to defamation here
http://www.paradigm.ac.uk/workbook/legal-i...defamation.html
Moderator, Mander Organs
No, my tutoring was not so long ago; I may sound 100, but many organists do...I'm a PG law student, tho' not in the area of Torts, so am by no means an expert on Defamation (my partner, who is a Senior Lecturer in Criminal Law isn't much help here either). You're quite right about the burden of proof, but a claimant would be very unwise to pursue an action in Defamation if the statement were true...
I don't wish to argue tho', and to be honest I have not followed this thread properly.
We're very grateful to you as hosts; the discussion is always lively. Very happy to abide by your rules!
Cheers.
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It is a widely-held misapprehension that being "certain of your facts" protects you from being prosecuted for defamation.
The fact is: something can be defamatory even if true; Mander Organs, as "publishers" of Cynic's defamatory post HAVE to remove it. It is the law. I don't know - and don't care - how reliable Cynic's "facts" are: the legal position is that you are not allowed to defame people. Full stop.
So, please don't. It is rude.
Moderator, Mander Organs
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or the "Rhythm" method?
:angry:
I shall resist elaboration of this thought...
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Yes, I've seen the book. :angry:
Is there a book?! Crikey. I suppose a book might be easier to contradict than the real thing...
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Just curious. The man who started me playing the organ was born in the 1880s or thereabouts and belonged to the old school that tied all repeated notes in hymns (he even tied them in the melodies, which made for some distinctly odd results in St Andrew of Crete). No one these days would tie notes in the melody, but many of us will have been brought up to regard tying notes in the lower parts as good practice.
Recently while listening to broadcast Choral Evensongs I have noticed organists reiterating all repeated notes. There is even a book that advocates this, the rationale being that it makes the rhythm more overt and thus keeps a congregation better under control. I confess I have not listened often or keenly enough to know how widespread or otherwise the practice is. Is it now regarded as the norm? What do you do?
For the record I tie some and repeat others, depending on what best projects the rhythm of the hymn and the words.
A distinguished and influential lady teacher working from the Barbican area of the city of London strictly advocates NO ties whatsoever. Legato in all parts, except for repeated notes.
And between verses, strictly two beats' rest, with preceding chords lengthened/shortened accordingly.
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Carnival of Souls (b/w, 1962) was screened over the weekend. This American horror film tells of a lady church organist and features a sequence filmed in an organ factory...does anyone know whose workshops they are, or the organ which features later in the film ?
If you missed it, the DVD is available at Amazon. Mind you, the star of the film clearly knew nothing about playing the organ...when supposedly playing the organ in the workshop erecting hall, the wind isn't even on !
Just curious, really.
H
According to imdb, it's the Reuter factory in Lawrence, Kansas:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055830/locations
Wish I'd seen it!
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My original copy of the John Scott/Hyperion Durufle CD, which I bought when it was released, succumbed to the infamous brown rot that has affected many Hyperion discs, and I only recently got round to replacing it. But here's the thing: on my original disc, I'm sure the Prelude to the Suite began with what I always assumed was another variant, subsequently revised and not present in my score: while the opening Bb is held, and before the pedal entry, there was a nice squishy chord on the strings. I rather liked it. But on my new copy of the CD, which is apparently an exact replacement for the old one, the string chord has vanished! It's some years since I listened to the old CD, but I'm sure I can't have imagined the different opening. Can anyone with an original copy of the CD confirm this?
I'm pretty certain it's an error on the disc: compare it with the opening of the Scherzo... See!
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'One good reason for having pseudonyms is that contributors will not find their less well-judged postings called up by anyone who chooses to google their names (which has now become a routine way of checking out people).'
Quite. It's also worth noticing that many of the fruitier posts are made rather late in the day; the sun is certainly well over the yard arm and one may detect the influence of the waning Rioja bottle...
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I must express sympathy with the frustration imputed to PL.
The continual refusal to think seriously about the instrument in different historical and cultural manifestations (expressed, for example, in the constant sniping at the poor old Tromba) is pretty depressing. Apologies if this sounds humorless, but these sort of remarks don't encourage discussion of any sort.
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Due to the fact that I have handed over sole charge for the music at Holy Trinity Hull to my wife as of this evening, never intending to darken that particular door again after my little patience has been exhausted, I thought a re-name was called for.
'Cynic' is the new handle for what used to be the reasonably optimistic Paul Derrett (or paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk).
I will probably be pontificating somewhat less in future - so that's good news!
Expressions of sympathy are not required: so many things in my life are my own fault that I have no doubt at all that I have (as usual) been my own enemy over the last few months. I think I am about to give church duties a miss for a very, very long time.
I have however not entirely given up interest in playing the organ. Fortunately I have instrument(s) of mine own.
Please don't stop 'pontificating', Paul! Your insights, anecdotes, wisdom etc. are a highlight of the board. I'll stop crawling now.
All best wishes,
Matthew
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I've just encountered these miniatures and must admit I rather like them - does anyone know of an available recording?
AJJ
Despite the other recommendations, I'd go for Christopher Herrick's Organ Dreans II on the lovely Harrison at Ripon. A real gem on Hyperion.
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Yesterday at the pre-Mass rehearsal I mentioned the Wachet auf/Lloyds Bank incident and the choir came back witrh a lot more examples:
Galaxy chocolate Beethoven Pastoral
Gas fires Bach 565
Old Spice Carmina Burana
Hamlet cigars Bach again (air from suite in D)
Hovis bread Dvorak New World
Maybe this is another thread, but how many other examples are there?
Best wishes
Peter
I was particularly fond of the ESSO (?) advert which used the nachtmusik from Mahler's Seventh Symphony... Fab!
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I have no wish to cross swords with anyone, but I remain completely mystified by the attraction of a sound that seems to me to belong in the cinema or stuck to the front of a train than in a musical instrument. It's vulgar in the extreme on an instrument that is supposed to be about subtlety of nuance and colour.
Of especial interest to Pierre would be the Grand Chorus CD with RAM players on a wide variety of representative English organs. I have placed a short extract of one of these tracks at this location, to entice you into buying the whole 2-disc set:
Now there's a truly exciting and musical sound that we ought to get worked up about preserving!
'an instrument that is supposed to be about subtlety of nuance and colour'
Really? According to whom?
The Downside Compton is a treasure. And what a great piece! Who wrote it?
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Does anyone genuinely believe there is any musical use or value in a general crescendo pedal. Surely the best thing is to send them all to the scrap heap (or to where Oscar Wilde believed bad americans go when they die) where they belong.
It would be great if there were more GC's about, particularly on older instruments: they're an invaluable guide to the builder's intentions of how the build-up should work. I used regularly to play a Compton; the sequence of stop additions was quite different from the way I'd been taught, and made a lot more aural sense on this instrument.
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Hmm... I think we've had some of these repertoire discussions before.
Being able to hear a profound and substantial work in a relatively modern (1935!) idiom at one sitting (La Nativite) is one of the highlights of my Christmas! To my mind, organ recitals suffer from offering suites of miniatures. It's quite rare to get a complete Bach recital, or even a Vierne or Widor symphony at one sitting, and a far more satisfying experience: a broader emotional curve; fewer 'quick thrill' climaxes.
But then, I love Wagner. Tristan in Munich last November was one of the (musical) highlights of my life...
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... or possibly Downing, or even Girton! I wouldn't have though it was your sort of instrument, Nigel.
I'd forgotten the pedal reed on that recording - I haven't listened to it for decades. (Makes mental note to get turntable back into working order). As I remember, it's similar to the Ophicleide at Halifax - rather honky and obliterates anything less than full great coupled to full swell. What on earth would it have been like if they had installed the 32' Bombardon that was prepared for (presumably a downward extension of the 16' reed).
Thanks for all these anecdotes... now to find a copy of that Grosvenor LP.
In the meantime, I'd recommend the following as the most outstanding organ recording I've heard for a long, long time. And certainly the finest recording of this instrument:
http://www.signumrecords.com/catalogue/sigcd089/index.htm
And I'm not on commission.
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In an idle moment today I explored the Trinity entry on NPOR.
The Metzler is widely held to be a superb instrument (whatever one's opinion of its accompanimental utility).
But I'm fascinated by the Hill it replaced. The spec seems to contain lots of vain repetition, and seems huge for the size of the chapel. I wonder if anyone heard/played this instrument, and has any thoughts on it? Are there any recordings available?
Cheers!
Matthew
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I think I'm right in suggesting that CE wasn't always broadcast on a Wed anyway (aside from the additional 10.30 Sunday broadcast)?
Given that the programme is one of those most downloaded on listen again, I'd have thought it highly unlikely that the BBC planned to ditch it?
I've not read through all the posts on this topic, so apologies if I'm repeating, but won't most establishments find Sunday easier to cope with, in terms of available musicians? Wed is usually 'dumb' day in a couple of hallowed places, I know.
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I hope I'm correct, since I'm rushing in to correct your statement but I had always understood that both of the above named successfully gained ARCO.
It's just jealousy, of course, that we keep harping on about it. Sir David Lumsden is an extraordinarily successful and able man (if not one of my personal heroes) and Simon Preston - well, at the very least he is the finest organist of his generation, isn't he? A rivetting and fastidious player, who (for my money) has done more for the profession than almost anyone to establish concert organists as artists on a par with famous performers on other instruments.
Andrew Lumsden is a far nicer guy than his dad (and a superlative player) and you have to ask why he never took the FR. I think when you get to a certain reputation, the problem is that if you pass (and are beaten to any of the prizes by someone lesser known) then this could be felt as a set-back. Just a theory.
I remember being told that Nicholas Kynaston, when asked why he had never sat the RCO diplomas, remarked that having been appointed Organist of Westminster Cathedral at 19 years old, having studied with Germani etc. etc. he didn't really feel the need... (or something like that!).
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Q. What's the difference between an organist and a terrorist?
A. You can negotiate with a terrorist.
Actually, this joke is usually told in Catholic circles as 'What's the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist?'
In this guise it's pretty indisputable, I'd say.
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The mine landed to the South of the Nave and took the whole south side of the roof off, the top of the South-West spire, demolished the Chapter house, blew all the windows out, and did quite a bit of damage to the organ, but perhaps not as much as people think.
Most of the Great would have been mangled, and the console (new in 1938) certainly destroyed, but the contents of the swell boxes didn't fare too badly and the roof over the organ remained in place. Dr. Michael Smith once intimated to me that there was more Hope-Jones in the organ as it stands than anyone cared to admit, but in truth not much of it is recogniseable.
One of the big problems with it is that it's hemmed into a case with little chance of tonal egress. Sound crosses to the console OK, but doesn't travel down the Nave. The case is incredibly congested, and in truth it's a wonder anything gets out at all.
It has also suffered with half-hearted maintenance for many years. Rushworths rebuilt the console in 1980 and dealt with some of the action, and since then a capture system has been installed which is failing very badly. A friend did a wedding there a few weeks ago, and on using one Great piston all the pedal stops flew in and remained under charge so couldn't be pulled out. Apparently it's a known fault, and forcibly drawing the Quint will release it! Couldn't help thinking they'd have been better off to have kept the setter board - which was conveniently sited in a cabinet next to the console - since the capture system only has one memory! Nothing much happened on tuning visits, apart from the then tuner always turning up when he knew there was a busy service schedule, and spending much time outside the west door having a smoke. Faults reported in the tuning book were met with "Can't fix - have reported to Liverpool" and, of course, nothing further happened. The organ's currently in the hands of Patrick Burns who does his best with what he's got, but in truth I think everyone gave up on it so long ago that all he can do is a certain amount of fire-fighting.
When Harrisons inspected it a few years ago, they proposed keeping just the Open Wood and the blower, everything else to be binned.
All that said, I did have one of my musical 'road to Damascus' experiences there, when about 7 years old, listening to Robert Joyce rehearsing for a recital. For that I remain thankful.
What a fascinating and informative post, cheers!
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I have not used the Worcester Psalter, but once had a long look at it and thought it excellent. I prefer the Oxford Psalter, but from what I remember the two are so similar that it wouldn't be worth changing - particularly not in a parish context where all you are going to need is the Sunday psalms. Both are far superior to the ubiquituous Parish Psalter.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with Goldsmith. I think the New St Paul's Cathedral Psalter is dreadful. The pointing, though undoubtedly deeply considered, is finicky and fussy* and I reckon it would need an expert choir and thorough familiarity to make it work. It is hard to imagine anything less suitable for congregational singing. I don't think the matching of the chants with the psalms is much cop either.
* The problem is that there is a penchant for moving off the reciting note too soon, resulting in too many syllables being crammed into the remaining notes before the double bar. No doubt this was done in a quest for fluency, but it militates against the concept of Anglican chant being a form of recitation.
I'm not sure that it's so much a case of being fussy as of taking a different approach to pointing (as did its predecessor), by making the chant completely subservient to the text. In this way it does avoid the 'artificial' sing-song elongation of single sylablles over several notes.
Personally, I feel that congregational anglican-chanting is a pretty poor idea under any circumstances. Responsorials yield far more musical results, and it's quite easy to whip up some nice ones oneself.
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Morning All - This is my first post, so be gentle !
Question one:
Does anyone recommend the new Mission Praise as a "decent" tome for more modern worship songs (aagh! - our new vicar has happy clappy leanings). This is because we are looking for something to supplement the more respectable AMNS.
Question two:
Does anyone recommend a psalter (with chants). We use words only Worcester Psalter (about 50 yrs old) alongside the St Nicks Chant Book, but want to get something more manageable than two books. Obviously, aware of the Parish Psalter - but any other recommendations?
thanks,
BB
The New St Paul's Cathedral Psalter is pretty good, if you don't mind the distinctive practice of omitting parts of the chant to fit the text when necessary: thorough rehearsal is essential! Some of the 'new' chants are also a tad dreary imho...
No, my tutoring was not so long ago; I may sound 100, but many organists do...
St. Peter And Paul, Eye / St Mark's Woodhouse, Leeds
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
I used to play this instrument as a student in Leeds about 16 years ago; St Mark's had just been re-opened, after a period of closure made necessary by the occasional chunk of falling masonry. Gorgeous instrument in a lovely church/acoustic.
I also used to deputize at All Souls. Here, it was told that the organ had been used by A&S as a 'demonstration' instrument, thanks to it's close proximity to the A&S factory. The pipework of the Great mixture had been removed, apparently when the lady donor had left the parish in a fit of pique! Another glorious building with a small but dedicated community, which had just been re-founded as a 'plant' from St Michael, Headingley, following some serious difficulties.
My 'everyday' practice instrument was at St Augustine, Wrangthorn. Another beautifully voiced A&S of great character - and a versatility not obvious from its spec - though in poor shape.
Cheers,
G