Goldsmith
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Posts posted by Goldsmith
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What musical qualities and programing considerations make for a good encore?
Context is all. Yet more full-organ after a big noisy piece can be dispiriting. As ever, it's an area where organists could learn from musicians. Sorry, other musicians.
Lieder singers generally judge this one pretty well.I'm not sure about a couple of well-known players, who often opt for twentieth-century American pieces of a rather whimsical nature. These can really ruin a carefully-wrought atmposphere...
I think there's a broader issue here tho', about programming generally. Good programming seems a rarer skill than good technique.
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What's the Westminster Cathedral instrument like? I've always liked the sound of it in recordings, but never heard it live...
Stunning.
If you like that sort of thing. It's at the West End, and speaks boldly into the widest nave in the UK. An eminent author described it as 'the supreme colourist's instrument'. The 32' reed is apocalyptic. It's really worth hearing live; I don't recall a recording that does it justice.The late-lamented Summer Recital Series was the best in London: international performers, meaty programmes, even an interval. Lots of memorable occasions, including a great performance by one of this board's contributors, in his RCO performer-of-the-year year.
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A moment of idle speculation caused me to wonder what would have been the result had the Royal Albert Hall been built in the 1920s or 30s. I wonder if we would have had Willis, or would Midmer-Losh have been brought over from America....
But in a sense that IS what happened! The 1933 Harrison re-build is the restrained British version...
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Actually I much prefer Arthur Harrison to FHW or William Hill, but I was simply trying to make a point that the RAH has a Harrison and Willis choruses and is not a pegidree organ, it has been mucked about. Having heard the RAH, personally I think it's ok, Manders did a good job with it, but what makes it so spectacular? As a Londoner, I find it wildly overrated and would rather go down and listen to St. Paul's quite frankly. Just because it's big, it doesn't necessarily follow that the RAH is of spectacular tonal quality, even FHW had off days. Then there's the question of acoustics, and of course personally I'd rather go and hear an organ in SGH than RAH. I hadn't realised the changes at Hereford were really that far reaching within the overall character, whereas I believe the Great Diapasons at the RAH were altered quite drastically. As for Canterbury, what's there is still wonderful, and there's a Stopped Diapason and something else which I can't recall which isn't original. A great pity it was cut back. Perhaps putting back what was there on 4 manuals and dividing the organ between 2 triforia North/ South to maximise speaking room might be a pretty good compromise there. New case on the Nave section perhaps? Personally, with Canterbury I'd put the organ back as it was, accept that it will never speak into the nave very well, and if more is needed in the nave add a couple of new ranks to the nave division. It really doesn't seem to require any more than that. Shame to spoil the original Willis organ, tinker about with a small nave division as a seperate entity. Even more economical to dispense with the nave division altogether, and invest in a couple of really good quality music microphones, have them professionally installed and relay the glorious sound to the nave - problem solved.
Pedigree is always tricky isn't it? The RAH is essentially a Harrison instrument. As I understand it from the copious amounts written about the RAH organ following its restoration, AH added to the organ and left most of the FHW stuff tonally unaltered (a generalization, but basically the case). Our hosts have made a cracking job of resoring the AH instrument (plus later additions). The uniqueness of this organ comes not merely from its size but from the variety of soft colours, the 'orchestral' division etc. The huge warm 'orchestral' sound is also pretty unique, I'd say. But as others have said repeatedly, you do have to hear the instrument from the right place in the Hall. The arena or opposite stalls will not do.
About St Paul's, I'd agree with an eminent contributor to this board, that the recital audience here hears the dome organ, a large echo division (chancel) and some west-end chamades. Very disappointing. This is an organ which only sounds intelligible as a whole in recordings.
As a fellow-Londoner, which would you rate as our finest instrument? I'd go for the RAH (it's a childhood thing). Notre-Dame de France is pretty wonderful, and often overlooked. And if you like big acoustics...
And for the most distressingly mutilated organ in London? Westminster Abbey. Very sad. (And how about St Margaret's next door...?
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Quite a reasonable turnout for David Goode's organ prom on Sunday afternoon - arena a bit sparse but stalls about half-full, say 1500+ overall.
A most thoughtful and unusual programme, not at all bombastic, and all played from memory as far as I could see. It's not often you hear a Böhm and a Bach CP at a 'secular' recital and 3 Russian rarities as well. Mozart K608 was done on bright small Great and Choir choruses with 8ft Pedal (no 16ft) - quite a revelation.
The middle section of Ad Nos seemed to got through most of the seldom heard Solo stops - Unda maris, strings, flutes, small reeds etc, even the Carillon. The only problem was that many of them were barely audible and it wasn't always easy to follow what Liszt was doing. The RAH organ must have the biggest dynamic range of any concert instrument. The big Tubas were saved until the last few bars - what a fantastic, effortlessly powerful sound! And everything absolutely in tune and fullywinded, too. The encore was that lovely little Prelude in E flat by William Harris.
JS
I think you may have underestimated the turnout; the capacity, after all, is over 6,000...
As in most large buildings, where you sit really makes a difference. I've found that you need to be in the organ's half of the RAH. From where I sat in the Circle (by far the best place IMHO), every single detail was audible.
David Goode's programming really follows Sumner's (I think?) sound advice: building up to full sounds only towards the end of the recital, giving the ears a chance to appreciate lighter textures, and giving a real adrenalin burst at at the finish.
And what a beautifully-judged encore. Who'd have thought it?
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Too much time on my hands this morning. Be sure to visit www.cameroncarpenter.com - you may be surprised by what you find.
Are you suggesting any similarity in the degree of subtlety employed in CC's art?
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On the contrary, St. Georges Hall is probably one of FHW's best, on a par with Canterbury, Alexandra Palace and Herford to name a few.
Hill would almost certainly have made a good job of building a fine organ, but when you think of how much work of Harrisons is on the Albert Hall, and how much the original scaling had to be altered I know which instrument I'd prefer to spend the money on. No disrespect to the latest restorers but there can really be little doubt the the RAH organ has been hacked about in the past. Can the same be said for St. George's Hall? My bet would be SGH has the greater pedigree.
All these value-judgements are very dispiriting. I much prefer Arthur Harrison to FHW and William Hill. As a Londoner, I get to hear the RAH organ in the flesh several times each year. From my point of view, I could describe SGH as 'tonally inferior', but I don't.
And as for Hereford, I don't think the additions of the 1970s really did any favours to the character or 'pedigree' of that particular instrument. And how about Canterbury...?
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Really? The Proms are an independent music festival and not there to bang drums for or against one instrument or another. One organ recital is enough for the Prom season in terms of musical balance and sensible management of resources. The concert is at a good time for organ concerts and a reasonable day of the week too - a weekday afternoon would be out of the question, so perhaps you would prefer the late night slot?
How on earth do you think the BBC could justify giving over a whole evening Prom to the organ without having other single instrument Proms? I'm sure they are partly doing it as a 'favour' to organ fans.
Similarly, the RAH runs as a venue that is hired by the day or week by outside organisations. In order to balance the books the hall is managed on the basis that the building rarely sleeps. Nevertheless they have managed to squeeze out time to have three major evening organ concerts each year - plus the attendant many hours of organ practice which they must give to each player.
That is what I mean about the armchair critics getting real. You live in some sort of fantasy world where everyone wants hear lots of organ recitals at the RAH each year. But if there were so many more organ concerts then the audiences would inevitably pick and choose and eventually dry up.
Goode's programme may not be to your taste, or indeed mine, but it is at least innovative in terms of repertoire (not many will have heard of some of the music, never mind know it - but many non organists might just be interested in hearing another facet of a well known composer's output) and has a broad variety of musical style.
Thomas Heywood is undoubtedly an organist of great repute and his audience base is growing. When you are the controller of Radio 3 I'm sure you'll realise that you'll need to sell that to the British public a bit more before you risk a Prom concert on an unknow overseas player.
I'm sure that the great weight of organ fans across the UK petitioning the BBC will secure the removal of Kenyon as Controller of R3, in spite of his great success in the last few Prom seasons and fantastic development of the radio station - yeah, right!
Hey! Calm down, Alsa!
David Goode's recital was exactly what one might have expected from this player: superb. The Russian items were beautifully played, but not inherently more interesting or illuminating than British repertoire of the same period...
I used to work at the RFH, so I'm well aware of the pressures on such venues.
I regret the way the organ is treated as a 'misunderstood elderly relative at a party' in the Proms programme. There are certainly no piano/violin recitals at the Proms, but the violin is heard in almost every concert. Get my point?
I'd be willing to sacrifice the solo recital for some serious concerto/concertante rep besides Poulenc/Saint-Saens etc. How about a BBC commission or two?
And why shouldn't we 'bang the drum' for the organ? Last year the Proms held a violin weekend, the RFH holds a yearly 'Rhthym Sticks' drumming festival etc. etc. If the public does not get the chance to hear the organ in the context of mainstream concerts, then how will anyone get the chance to fall in love with the instrument in the twenty-first century?
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Come on, that's not very fair!
We have had solo recitals from DGW in Autumn 2005, Simon Preston in June, David Goode at the Proms this Sunday, and John Scott on 25 October whose programme will be:
Wagner: Prelude to ‘Die Meistersinger’ (transcribed E.H. Lemare)
Handel: Concerto in G (Op.4, No. 1)
Bach: Fantasia and Fugue in C minor BMV 537
Liszt: Fantasia and Fugue on BACH (transcribed by J. Guillou)
Prokofiev: Toccata (transcribed by J. Guillou)
Grainger: Handel in the Strand (arranged by W. Stockmeier)
Bossi: Scherzo
Reubke: Sonata on the 94th Psalm
Plus there's the annual Organ Gala with John Birch. Stephen Disley and the RPO, the next one being on Sunday 3 June 2007. No one can say the RAH are neglecting the wonderful monstrosity that is the RAH organ, can they?
The RAH authorities are doing a fine job with the wonder in their charge.
Mr Kenyon, planning supremo for the Proms, is another matter.
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Anybody been to any of the summer organ festival recitals yet? Must admit the programmes have not grabbed me but David Sanger's recital on 15 August looks promising. He concludes with the finale from Vierne 6. Territory he knows well. Those who collected ye olde LPs will recall his recordings of the Vierne Symphonies for Meridian at the Italian church in Ckerkenwell. Big definitive performances on a modest organ. I am sure that the Filsell recordings at Rouen are also exciting.
I wonder if the Abbey have produced a glossy brochure for the series as usual, hopefully with a photo of the refurbished console. One feature of this brochure that I value is that the recitalists write their own programme notes.
JF at the Abbey on Tuesday was fab. I think, more than anything else, simply because he chose to play music that really suited the instrument. The two previous recitals were very disappointing. The last particularly so, since it was recommended in The Times(?) as gig of the week. I suspect many organ-music virgins will never attend a recital again. At one point, I longed for a handful of wrong notes simply to wake me up. It's all very well to champion 'new' (!) music, but who in their right mind would end with the Gowers Toccata (without even an encore to raise the spirits?)!
The brochure is excellent as ever, tho' sadly no console pic (but this year with spec). I'm looking forward to Hans Fagius next week.
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Well, Winchester nick has one, a 1 manual Osmond, and according to NPOR several others do. Wormwood Scrubs has a whacking great 3m Compton.
Wormwood Scrubbs certainly does. The Compton speaks majestically from the West Gallery, detached console on the chapel floor, complete with 32' reed, and well-maintained (at least when I last played it, about five years ago).
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Hi
I doubt if Peter can add any more, as it was he who tuned the organ in 2005 and supplied the NPOR update.
I find your comments about NPOR somewhat less than helpful - like any information source, it is only as good as the sources of the information. We do not have the resources to visit every organ that we get information on to check on the reliability! (And we certainly can't visit those that are no longer in existence). Published information is also not always reliable - it's not easy trying to sort out what the truth really is. The key to using NPOR properly is to take note of the survey date and the latest update, and the recorded "state" of the organ (which, of course is only valid for the time it was seen and recorded, which may be anything up to 100 years ago). If you have any corrections, then let us know at the NPOR office and we will may corrections - please include the source of your information.
Every Blessing
Tony (NPOR Editor)
Tony,
Useful information, the NPOR is a great resource.
About ten years ago I played for a wedding at St Saviour's RC Parish Church, in Lewisham High Street (London SE). The organ was a 3-manual instrument, all in good nick, bearing a Gray and Davison nameplate. I can find no trace of the Church (built c. 1909) on the database. I wonder if anyone else has had a more recent encounter with this instrument?
Cheers,
Matthew
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And nine pedal 5 1/3s!!! What's the point?
Yes, give me the Taylor & Boody any day...
The Puritan backlash...
I'd be like a small boy in a sweetshop
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We are indeed lucky - and it was great to hear an unusual programme so well suited to the organ - but I wouldn't want to detract from the rest of the country. I was in Liverpool last weekend and went to a recital by Ian Tracey. Now that organ is in a class of its own, and I believe is not equalled by anything in London. And Ian Tracey was on superb form - player, building and instrument all fitted each other perfectly.
JJK
No, I was being a bit provocative.
Tho' my point was really about the amount of really world-class music in a small area, in such concentrated quantities!The Liverpool organ is a marvel, but I do feel it's been tinkered with of late. I reckon HWIII's best work is Westminster Cathedral, myself.
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Well I thoroughly enjoyed it - although I wasn't expecting so much tibia, vox and trem! (at least I thought I heard tibias, but it seems there aren't any on that organ!)
No idea about the encore.
Also, where was the Schmitt toccata?
JJK
I loved it. And great to hear such a kaleidescopic tour of the instrument. Very well-planned programme: serious German first-half, then some real town-hall stuff, followed by something epic.
The Schmidt was replaced by the Gershwin, noted on the RAH website a couple of months ago. A good move, I think.
Without wishing to raise hackles, tho' there is much good music outside London, not many other places on the planet where I could hear a superlative Figaro (under Colin Davis) on Wed, Simon Preston on a leviathan Edwardian marvel on Fri, and the Palestrina mag primi toni (sung by the finest choir in the world?) at West Cath on Sunday. Just for starters...
(Particularly as I'm one of those curious people who doesn't drive a car...) -
1. and 2. above, yes - absolutely.
You ask for others, I suggest:
3. The candidate must sightread a current (but unfamiliar) 'worship song' on the organ, simultaneously both reharmonizing it, making it sound idiomatic to the instrument and performing the rhythm of the given melody line as it actually goes (as opposed to how it has been notated). Extra marks to be available for anyone who can continue beyond the first verse, following all directions as regards second time bars, hidden coda and variable links between any other verses which should be not expected to scan similarly to the first verse given.
4. The candidate must demonstrate the ability to sing a choice of at least three different voice parts from the console in an accompanied item to cover acceptably for likely absentees. Extra marks here should be for the ability to 'throw the voice' sufficiently to make it appear that the organist is standing alongside other singers.
5. The candidate must show the ability to explain to someone with the reduced understanding equivalent to a recently-trained clergyperson the possible function and public expectations of
Traditional Carol Service
Choral Festivals
Choral Evensong.
Marks will be deducted for a patronizing manner or signs of either petulance or weariness.
All mentioned, plus:
Role-Play Exercise.
The candidate will outline an appropriate response to the following scenario:
During the post eleven o'clock mass voluntary, an elderly and beligerent member of the clergy will emerge from the sacristy, thump the music-desk and shout loudly into the candidate's ear these or similar words: 'They're trying to say the bloody Angelus'.
Use of the Tuba is not permitted.
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Just wondered if anyone else heard Simon Preston at the RAH last night, and if so what they thought.
Could anyone identify the encore?
Cheers,
Matthew
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"Yorkshire Dales are almost an organ desert"
Goodness, almost as much as London?
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The clearly you have completely mis-understood the ethos behind this instrument and others like it. It is actually a superbly musical instrument in which just about every stop blends well with every other stop. The only rank which could be considered 'brash' is the Orchestral Trumpet - even this, used intelligently, can be tremendously exciting.
It was voiced by Denys Thurlow - who at the time was acknowledged to be the one of the best voicers in the country.
I could probably supply some sound samples (if someone can explain how to transfer CD to computer to this board). I am fairly certain that you would find it hard to believe that it was the Wimborne organ and that you would like the sound of it....
Erm, I don't think I have mis-understood its ethos at all. I simply don't like the sounds it produces. Intelligent and informed persons can disagree on such matters, ChCh being a good example.
There are badly constructed and ill thought-out organs, but there is no 'bad' style. As a student I presided over a small, tonally unaltered Hope-Jones (now sadly gone). A very pleasing musical instrument; don't believe all you read about RHJ's work. History, after all, is usually written by the victors...
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I absolutely agree about Wimborne: the first organ I ever played. Horrible. Put me off its type for life...
The ChCh organ certainly seems to rouse the passions in those that hear it. I much prefer the Klais at Smith Square, but that building has an acoustic.
I don't know Derby Cathedral but St Brides is great, Downside even better. (The old GTB recordings on the BBC Compton come over pretty well too.)
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And how lovely to see that M. Aubertin finds space for the much-maligned Dulciana...
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Interesting, Goldsmith!
N.-D. does sound different, now. However, I am still slightly confused by your last comment. Did TT not use the Boisseau chamades in his recital? (You would definitely have noticed if he had - even downstairs.)
It does sound more rounded, although arguably less exciting. It now sounds a little like King's, Cambridge! (Not an asset, as far as I am concerned.)
I heard the organ after the latest rebuild, with its new CC-type chamades, which are about as far away from the KCC tuba as you can get...
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Actually, I made no comment on American organs, save to make the assumption that you had also meant to include them in your post, since I can, as I stated, only think of one English cathedral organ with chamades a few hundred feet from the main instrument.
Your original comment was unclear to me.
I was interested to read your point regarding Downes' dislike of the chamades added by Robert Boisseau to the Nôtre-Dame instrument. I was unaware of this. Of course, N.-D. now has its own pair of 'Toulouse chamades' - added by Jean-Loup Boisseau in the most recent restoration and copied directly from those at S. Sernin. perhaps Downes would have approved of those!
Well, to be honest I was using a bit of your old rhetorical hyperbole in criticizing English organs with chamades tacked-on away from the rest of the instrument, but I think I've done this to death now...
I've only heard the NDdeP organ live once. I turned up in Paris a couple of years ago, and by chance Thomas Trotter was playing in a series entitled 'The English Organist', and we were treated to the Bairstow Sonata...
I was used to various Cochereau/Latry recordings, so in the flesh the instrument amazed me; such an elegant and lucid sound. The Tocc Adag + Fugue in C came over brilliantly. RD was spot on.
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Erm, wasn't Boely born in 1785...? Which means that he was playing Bach... from about fifty years after Bach's death?
And I think you've illustrated the subjectivity point pretty well if you think the Willan is the only piece of romantic British organ music worth playing... (and I didn't even mention Parry, Stanford or the Elgar Sonata).
I agree about Francis Jackson tho'. So that's two things. (Except that the Diversion isn't unique. How about the Langlais Dialogue sur les Mixtures?)
Lieder singers generally judge this one pretty well.
Tho' my point was really about the amount of really world-class music in a small area, in such concentrated quantities!
St. George's Hall, Liverpool
in General discussion
Posted
The remaining AH stuff on the Abbey organ is delightful, esp the solo, as you say. But there's more to it than just the Bombarde division. The Large Open was removed, and the Trombas revoiced as Posaunes. The re-modelled great chorus, together with other additions/changes, leave an instrument which is an unsatisfactory hybrid. But I still go to hear it lots; there are echoes of former greatness...
You're spot on about the Cathedral, those Sylvestrinas are ravishing.
Cheers, I'll look out for the new St Paul's disc.