Goldsmith
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Posts posted by Goldsmith
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I, in turn, am amazed that you could prefer something which is robbed of virtually all harmonic development* and is itself a true 'noise-machine'!
The deadening blanket of sound which is usually present when a tuba is inartistically coupled to the tutti I find oppressive and un-musical!
Quite different to the stunning effect of bright and harmonically-lively chamades.
I still cannot see the point of a chamade which just burbles politely, though....
:angry:
* Except for a few examples by Hill and Willis (Eton College Chapel, Chester, Exeter, St. Pauls [Chancel], etc) and I still do not like these!
But modern chamades often don't blend any better than tubas, do they? There are some very nasty examples tacked onto romantic English-sounding organs, sometimes a few hundred yards away from the rest of the instrument. At least the tuba is usually tonally/physically related to the rest of the instrument.
And it has some repertoire written for it...
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Talking of "illusions" perhaps someone can answer another long-standing query of mine: in John Norman's "Organs Of Britain", the spec of St Lawrence Jewry, Coty of London, has a "Musette 8 (synthesized)". Can anyone enlighten me please?
Incidentally, I can remember as a boy in Bristol playing a 2 manual Daniel extension organ in Oakfield Rd Unitarian Church, that had on the swell among other thiongs a Salicional and a nazard. The resident organist showed me that combining the two gave a reasonable illusion of an Orchestral oboe.
I used to play the Mander Lawrence Jewry organ once a month for seven years or so, when a student. The choir 'reeds' were derived from the upperwork. By this stage in that late instrument's life, I found them to be unusable (never properly in tune). Piston 6 (tuba) on the choir also had a nasty habit of sticking...
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Paul - I think politically correct is a bit loaded. The issue is complicated slightly by the issue of notational conventions and so forth - but the question for me is why in some cases - eg BWV 544i, 547ii - Bach and his copyists should have gone to the considerable trouble of notating a very specific value for the final chord, and rests in each idividual part to complete the bar if the duration of the last chord were of no consequence. If a grandiose ending feels better, fine - but you can't pretend that it's what the notation (as reproduced in a half decent edition, of course) implies. It's not about a correct official line - it's about looking properly at what's in the score, which after all is all there is. Very good article on all this in Peter Williams Vol 3 - "Certain details of performance - finals, fermatas and repeats" - 'the rests [in BWV 544i] have been written in so carefully as to leave the matter quite unambiguous'. Another quote from Williams - 'if the abruptness seems to offend common sense, does it do so because that common sense is an anachronism, or because the notation is implying something else as well - namely that there must be a rallentando?' Your idea of finishing 'properly' might be different from Bach's, but it's his piece after all....
Seems to me that these points (esp. the rallentando) are spot on. Doesn't a drawn-out final chord contradict the energy and forward movement (and I don't mean speed) of the works in question anyway?
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One theory I have heard is that it should start on the Ruckpositiv, central (5-part) section on the Hauptwerk and final section on the Oberwerk. Another is that this composition symbolises The Trinity - though why that theory should oblige a performer to end a majestic work with a couple of pages of hyper-delicate wisps of flute combination is beyond me.
Since this system seem to insist on me stating my own position, I love an fff end and am sufficiently convinced of the musical justification for this. I feel sure that the great man (with his well-known penchant for 32' stops and reeds) deliberately piled on the power towards the end - those repeated bottom D's get the whole building rocking.
Couple this with Bach's own title - which surely points to the French tradition: notably the Grand Jeu.
I wonder if anyone has thoughts on the similar problem presented by the Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C? Should the fugue end with a resounding pedal bottom C, or reduce to a spry flute combination?
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Thanks for that Pierre - perhaps more a case of 'not using it right' than 'the stop was wrong' - maybe Ralph Downes should have left an instruction book!! They still modified it though and it was not much use to 'us youngsters' then.
On the same lines an interesting house organ built by Peter Collins has an unusual stoplist including a high Cimbel. See link:
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=E00810
I have a recording of Roger Fisher playing Bach on it and using this stop as part of a solo combination - having just listened to this (and some Messiaen at Beauvais!) what you say makes perfect sonic sense.
AJJ
A good point about Ralphh Downes; his book 'Baroque Tricks' should be compulsory reading. In another thread, it was suggested that flutes/principals, as a general rule, are better not mixed. At the RFH and elsewhere, the organ was designed so that classes of pipe should be used together (I generalize here, for the sake of brevity). RD's horror on hearing Peter Hurford using a 'skeletonized' registration for a Bach fugue (?) is very instructive.
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Another point was cited here in another thread: the fact we live
in a noisy environment renders us less receptive to soft tones,
we need sharper, louder sounds.
Pierre
Hmm.. I don't really buy this argument. For city dwellers, the Victorian street (cobbles, horses, carts etc.) would have been pretty noisy. Travelling by steam train would have been pretty noisy too. And how about working in a 'dark, satanic mill'?...
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In another post, I think we were all agreed that the organ at the Immaculate Conception Church in Southampton was really nasty but that the idea of it was a refreshing change from the average church organ.
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N11626
I was just thinking what I would replace it with and thought that a neo-classical organ was just right for the the rather austere 1950s (?) building with a West Gallery and I thought up a spec for what sort of new organ I would put in this church, given the chance. Sad, I know, but let me know what you think, esp if you know the church.
The organ would be mechanical and strictly Werk-prinzip, with a modern movement case, with front, sides, back and roof, with simple geometric pipe shades, as loved in the 60s and 70s, probably in natural oiled oak.
Position: West gallery (choir would also move to the gallery)
Great Organ (or Hauptwerk)
Prinzipal 8
Gedackt 8
Octav 4
Coppel Flote 4
Quint 2 2/3
Super Octav 2
Terz 1 3/5
Mixtur IV 1 1/3
Trompet 8
Oberwerk (poss. enclosed)
Lieblich Gedackt 8
Gambe 8 (4' helper bass with Lieb. Gedact)
Prinzipal 4
Klein Gedackt 4
Spitz Octav 2
Larigot 1 1/3
Hobo 8 (a gentle, warm, smooth 1/2 length reed)
Pedalwerk
Subbass 16
Octav 8 (by transmission from Gt Prinzipal)
Super Octav 4 (by transmission from Gt Octav)
Fagot 16 (wood, full length)
Schamei 4
usual couplers
Tremulant to each manual.
The Oberwerk could possibly have swell box shutters (possibly.... how much do we want deface our pure organ aesthetic with romantic excesses...)
wind-blown zimbelstern.
w.p. about 3 inches.
I would go for large wedge bellows in the room off the gallery.
The scales would be moderate but I would go for much smoother voicing than was usually the case in the 60s and 70s - more like a Flentrop from the 80s. The choruses would be straight, so a 2' principal would be about the same scale as an 8'. The scales would be toepfer scales.
Mechanical action.
BTW, I've modified this post - on reflection, I think an oberwerk would be better than a brustwerk - the church is quite lofty and voluminous and I think an Oberwerk would fit the character of the church better.
A non-organist friend, currently working on a doctorate at the RCM, has a good theory about high-pitches/mutations etc. It's simply that we lose the top end of our hearing as we get older, so experience low to mid-range sound as dull and indistinct. This would explain why I found that the headphones my new boss claimed were such an improvement on his old ones, sounded unbelievably tinny to me (being thirty years his junior). And also why Pierre Boulez has revised his 'Pli selon Pli' twice, each time producing a version with higher and brighter (and frankly more annoying), percussion.
So my point is this: to get young people to listen to the organ, ditch your neo-classical paint-stripping device, and buy an H&H. Or better still a Hope-Jones.
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I have just re discovered a CD of the RAH organ played by Francis Grier and Timothy Bond (BBC Radio Classics 15656 91602 - from the Sound Archives) recorded at proms during the early 80s but issued in the mid 90s. Messaien's Nativite and L'Ascension - incredible sounds but somewhat starved of wind in the 'big' bits!! Anyone else heard this?
AJJ
I thought I was the only person in the world who had bought this...
The playing is great, and it's very atmospheric. The tuning/winding are very dodgy (a great illustration of the organ pre-Mander); I particularly love the moment Timothy Bond adds a handful of tubas in the final bars of Transports de Joie... Not sure my stereo/the neighbours appreciated it much tho'.Matthew
PS: To those interested in Messiaen, the Latry/ND de Paris complete works are currently going for a song on Amazon (£21.97). I'm glad I waited...
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Yes, I would agree with your sentiments, Stephen.
Whilst personally, I fail to see the point of orchestral transcriptions in an organ recital these days, nevertheless it could be interesting to observe precisely how Mr. Preston will realise such matters as the registration, for example.
I have no knowledge of the last item - it is always exciting to discover previously-unknown repertoire.
I hope also that Manders have managed to rectify the unfortunate electrical problems which affected the combination mechanism of the instrument following the rebuild. However, I do understand that the fault lay in certain components in the Solid-State system - something which Manders (or the suppliers) could not have been expected to know until the problems became manifest.
I have to say, I think it looks like a wonderful programme. I too heard SP play at the RAH last year (?) and will be fascinated to hear the Schumann again under such different conditions. Interesting too that the Scmidt was played by Susi Jeans at the RFH organ's opening.
I also thought we were past the point of writing-off transcriptions these days; why is a good transcription less valid than an original work?
After all, there are some impeccable precedents...
On another point, I recently acquired the vinyl of SP's Abbey Nativite from the sixties. What a stunner! As someone who hears the Abbey organ quite often, I was sad to find that the instrument sounded a lot more coherent and convincing then (complete with Large OD and Gt Trombas) than it does now. The removal of these from the Gt makes the remaining Harmonics rather a Cinderella.
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Much as I love the Herrick recording, I'd reccommend David Goode's from Christ Church Oxford (on Herald). The cleaner acoustic really helps.
There are a number of things which make this great music IMHO. Firstly, it's the sustained contrapuntal writing, and the way tension is built up/relaxed over the duration of the piece via a great variety of textures. Secondly (and this is what's especially distinctive, for me) it is that Nielsen's compositional 'voice' is to be heard in every bar: this is obviously the same man who wrote the Symphonies, Maskerade etc. (This seems to be an achievement few 'mainstream' composers pull-off when writing for the organ.) It's a profoundly beautiful and serious work.
I'm not sure it's that rare in recital. I heard a great performance at a free Westminster Cathedral Sunday-afternoon freebie (complete with obbligato votive coin-dropping) a while ago, which was fairly jaw-dropping.
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There's a fantastic website for cantataphiles: www.bach-cantatas.com which provides chorale texts, Lutheran calendar and much, much more. A real labour of love.
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I'd imagine that the OUP C H Trevor 'Old English Organ Music For Manuals' series might be pretty indispensable... The Faber 'Early Organ' series is a bit more esoteric.
The Flor Peeters Chorale Prelude volumes also contain a lot of useful stuff; they're expensive new, but often turn up second hand.
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Another one for the top-end of the list: Franz Schmidt - Chaconne.
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Alain Trois Danses
Nielsen Commotio
Tournemire 'improvisations' (Victimae Paschali if pushed)
Elgar Sonata (May not be easy to pull off, but when it works, it's awesome.)
Reubke Sonata
Reger Variations F#m
Messiaen Messe de la P.
Hindemith Sonatas (II?)
Now I've started to think about it, quite a bit more... tho' much Widor/Franck etc doesn't bear a lot of repetition. As a teenager I developed a crush on Durufle, but again I'm not sure the music really bears lots of scrutiny, except the gorgeous little Prelude Sur L'Introit De L'Epiphanie.
The Bairstow Sonata is pretty impressive too.
And I've just seen the Widor Symphonie Romane post. Absolutely agreed; this is in an utterly different class from the rest of his output. Didn't Schweitzer say that with this work Widor had produced 'Sacred Art' or something?
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Not strictly on topic, so apologies.
I heard Margaret Phillips play a selection of the Eighteen on Saturday, on the QEH Flentrop. The only reed on this instrument is the Swell Cremona 8', which proved extremely versatile as both a chorus and solo stop. Very nice.
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THE TIME LAG
Once upon a time a detached console was often placed away from the pipes so that the organist could hear what he or she was doing. Provide the console was less than 30’ away there was not enough acoustic delay to cause any great worry – over 30’ and you began to notice it. (This excludes action delays!)
It was said that with a mechanical action things were perfect. On a small instrument this is usually so but the moment you get onto a large mechanical instrument (such as the lofty continental ones) the old acoustic time lag starts to rear its head. If you are playing one division that is sky high against the division behind your back then the laws of Physics ensure that you will not hear the two together.
I have asked several well know recitalists how they get over this problem. The most honest said “With difficulty, I try not to choose music that will not necessitate registrations to be set up this way”. Another told me that he tries to couple the far away division to a very soft nearby stop and listens to that. (I believe this is normal practice for using a West End battery of reeds). The most interesting was “In these circumstances I always play from the music that I hear in my head and allow it to control my fingers – I never listen to what I am playing”.
I can appreciate the logic behind this last line of thought. I remember years ago hearing Flor Peters playing at the Albert Hall. He played a trio – one hand using the pipes immediately above his head and the other using the Swell section that was way over towards the old Royal College of Organists building. All went well for about a minute and then suddenly he listened to what he was playing at the console. The rest of the piece was a fascinating example of a great musician trying to get himself out of trouble.
If you come up against `time lag’ problems, how do you solve them?
Frank Fowler
I've never regularly played such an instrument, but I remember being taught to feel the pulse in my fingertips, rather than waiting for the sound of the organ. It's certainly helped when deputizing on such instruments. Otherwise, even when playing on one manual, one can find oneself getting slower and slower.
It all rather contradicts our attempts to listen to our own performances, and perhaps explains why organists are often accused of not doing so...
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Thanks for your comments, pcnd.
While I was aware that the early recordings would have been subject to the constraints imposed by 78s, I must confess that I hadn't really given any thought to the time factors involved being relevant to the "creative process". In retrospect, I suppose they were.
As I think you suggest, Vierne seems deliberately to have "dumbed down" considerably from his normal level (at least with respect to the standard of his written works). It's quite a pity, then, that recording equipment and techniques were at the primitive level they were then; and a pity, too, that there was no François Carbou who was so dedicated to the recording of Cochereau's service (and other) improvisations.
Interesting, too, are your comments about Duruflé's playing. I don't have any of his recordings, but had heard that he was good, but not absolutely front rank as a technician.
For a number of reasons, I can't wait to get this set ...
Rgds
MJF
It's a great set though, some wonderful performances. The Tournemire is quite electrifying...
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Gosh, with Mendelssohn, Dupre, Langlais etc. dropping like flies, I'm beginning to wonder what people actually LIKE? (And I'm choosing to ignore some curious remarks made elsewhere on this board about JSB.)
I'm sure though, that there's often quite a difference between music which is satisfying to perform, and that which is satisfying to listen to, particularly to the non-player. And in the same way that the first recording/performance heard of a piece makes an indelible impression, so do pieces which we learn at particular times, and critical faculties desert us (me).
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WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My beloved "Four Sketches?"
You can hear me playing the F-minor one on "Organs & Organists online" at Halifax PC.....sorry about the pregnant moment as I tried to get a pneumatic piston to spring into life at the time of the recital.
Schumann was a GREAT COMPOSER you know.
:angry:
MM
Horses for courses; they bore me rigid, unlike the BACH Fugues. And my beloved Marcel Dupre.
As to the GREAT COMPOSER thing, I just added a note to my original post. Perhaps we can agree on Reger and Hindemith though, and I could try to win you over with talk of dismal Guilmant...?
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For my money, the Schumann 4 Sketches (which seem to be popular recital fare in London these days) deserve a place near the top of the list. In fact, I can think of a few other examples of work by 'mainstream' composers dredged up by organists (often student pieces or simple exercises), perhaps in an effort to attract broader audiences? Misguided, I think.
Oh, and I've just remembered that dreadful Kenneth Leighton Passacaglia-type effort. Yawn.
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I don't believe I'm still wide awake at 2.30am!
An absolutely intriguing set of pieces, coming from Spain, are the four "Saetas" by Eduardo Garcia Torres; based on the Andalusian Gypsy songs of that name, which were song spontaneously during Holy Week at Seville (and presumably elsewhere). (Torres was organist of Seville Cathedral...his dates 1872-1939)
If ever the Middle-East meets the West, this is it, and it is beautiful music.
I'm not sure it is in print.
I also have a CD on which is a truly magical improvisation by Joyce Jones, played on the vast Moller (+) at Westpoint Military Acdemy, NJ, which she bases on a popular Japanese song called (I hope I spell this correctly!) "Aki Tombo." (The Red Dragonfly).
What astonished me is the remarkable fusion of what we may regard as "French" modal harmony and Japanese modal melody, with all those 4ths and odd notes in the scale. It was worth buying this CD for that one improvisation alone....absolutely fantastic, and peacefully subdued throughout.
Of course, had Jehan Alain lived longer, we may have seen much more of this, because like Messaien, he was interested in Eastern Rtyhms and modality. Messaien used "Tallus" rhythms from the Hindi culture, I believe.
Well, that's 3 organists who had/have a vested interest!
MM
PS: I SHOULD go to bed!
The Saetas were pretty popular when published; Germani certainly played them. I think there's an Amphion CD of FG playing one at Westminster Cathedral c. 1947.
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There is a cure for this - a new recording of the 1921 H&H at Crediton. The playing is excellent (as is usual with this particular artist), but the organ sounds dreadful. The GO mixture jangles unpleasantly and every time the GO reeds are drawn, they virtually obliterate everything else, with a dull, opaque blanket of sound. This is not music! The 32p reed also makes some nasty noises, to my ears.
I'd be interested to hear this; any details?
It would be churlish not to accept your assessment of the instrument, but don't we usually judge a builder by his most successful work, rather than less convincing examples?
Otherwise, we'd have to write off most of the big names in organ building... -
A Tromba and Harmonics make it sound like a Willis organ.
OK, a Bombarde is probably a bit of a luxury, a Violone might be more useful.
Why get rid of the Horizontal reed? I am sure a firm such as H & H or Manders could make a decent one?
OK. I own up. I was trying to Arthur-Harrison your scheme a bit. I'm afraid I dream flat twenty-firsts...
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Yes!
Try Leeds Town Hall....Gray & Davison 19th century.
Isn't there one at Usk PC in South Wales by the same builder?
I don't think the big Orchestral Trumpet at Hull City Hall is horizontal, but if it were........
MM
I was a student in Leeds fifteen years ago, and I don't remember that an awful lot of the G&D had survived the Wood rebuilding, but please correct me. I know the Hill at the Ulster Hall has a horizontal reed which is jolly enough, but I was hoping for some more recent successful examples on non-Klais/Marcussen etc-type instruments.
Otherwise, we'd have to write off most of the big names in organ building...
En Chamade
in General discussion
Posted
Well, it's all a matter of taste in the end. And it's very unwise to make value judgements on the quality of art. Who was listening to/playing JSB in the years after his death, etc. etc.? Last night I heard Duke Bluebeard's Castle at the ROH, a masterpiece which only entered the Covent Garden repertory in 2002...
I'm a great admirer of Ralph Downes, but he was a man of his time, and we all react against a previous generation's views. There's a whole body of British romantic music which is being re-discovered by performers and audiences: Alcock, Whitlock, Lemare, Harwood, Willan, Bairstow, Harris, Howells etc. There are many more than 'a few pieces' here.
The English parish/cathedral instrument spends most of its time in accompaniment, like it or not. In the spirit of 'historically informed' performance, shouldn't we think about what sounds HH might have expected for his Coll Reg (for example)?
Downes was working in a different tradition (tho' the Oratory is still the place to go to hear glorious orchestral masses 'realized' on the organ!), and I seem to remember that he was extremely disapproving of Cochereau's modern chamades at NDdeP... His ideal were those on the masterpiece at Toulouse.
And I'm afraid I disagree about American instruments. Seems to me that the percussive chamades found overe there do actually blend with the American Classic sound very well.
Horses for courses.