nachthorn
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Posts posted by nachthorn
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The really lamentable thing is that there isn't any better organ round here on which to do it, though I must admit I'd prefer one that kicks you in the crotch a bit instead of smiling "More tea, vicar?"
The Westminster Cathedral recording is the one I've got. I noticed it the other day in a record shop I didn't quite succeed in passing and it looked so lonely I felt obliged to give it a good home. I have to say that both the organs and the singing are simply stunning. Even my wife was impressed enough to ask what the music was. The rest of the programme on the CD is excellent too with the Widor Mass and motets by both men and by Dupré. Currently one of my desert island discs.Likewise. Found it on eBay a couple of months ago. I think I've worn a groove in it already...
The liner notes said that there were few performances during Vierne's lifetime, due (as far as I remember) to the demanding nature of the music. Is it really that challenging (not seen the score) or were Parisian choirs just not that capable at that time?
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An excellent idea! There are some very good players and custodians of decent instruments on here. Although I know my playing is not up at the mark for recording, I'm very happy to volunteer for technical services and the like: I use a Soundfield ST250 to 24-bit DAT at present, which should do the trick!
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Thanks for the recommendations. Travis and Emery was well stocked, although the organ section amounted to no more than two or three dozen books, largely Novello Bach editions. Archive Secondhand on Bell St. was, as described, absolutely stuffed with music, with no more than the gentlest sorting applied to the shelves, boxes, sacks and filing cabinets full of scores. Once again, though, there were only a few dozen organ scores on show (although who knows what was lurking in the stacks of boxes?).
I also went to a recital by Catherine Ennis at St. Lawrence Jewry. The playing was very good (Handel, Bach, Yamanouchi, Ravel, Vierne), but the Klais didn't impress me at all. Fairly bland in counterpoint, and the pleno had a uncomfortable tendency to howl in chords. What do others think?
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Going to London tomorrow for the day. Are there any particular music shops that people can recommend for organ and choral music? I'm especially keen on those specialising in second-hand music, mostly because I'm cheap, but also because I love the challenge of finding unexpected bargains
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Out of interest, people may be interested to know that David is playing a recital in Notre-Dame de Paris on Low Sunday at 4.30pm, programme below
30 March Notre-Dame de Paris at 4.30pm
Choral Improvisation sur le Victimae Paschali (Tournemire/Durufle)
Christ ist erstanden (J S Bach)
Mors et resurrectio (Jean Langlais)
Te Deum (Jeanne Demessieux)
Improvisation on 'Haec Dies' (DB)
So, who else went? I threw caution aside and booked myself and a brave Mrs. N on the overnight coach from Victoria. Despite arriving at Gallieni at 5:30am (losing two hours through time zone and French summer time) with all of two hours sleep, we had a respectable day, hearing the organs at Sacre-Coeur (ravishing sound but was crying out for a tuning) and Notre-Dame, making good and rapid use of the Metro, and eating steack-frites. The recital was superb, and I thought that the sound of the organ in the nave was far better than that heard on recordings, presumably a function of the acoustic and the fact that the instrument was voiced for the nave, not ten feet off the tribune! The improvisation was as a suite in true Cochereau style, but with a clear vein of Briggs running throughout. Much use of chamades (pcnd - restrain yourself) and there was a standing ovation from a packed nave. Afterwards, I hoped to tag onto the back of line of those visiting the organ loft for Vespers and the mass, but somehow M. Latry saw beyond my dishevelled appearance and camera round my neck to determine that I may not in fact have been a genuine French organ student, and firmly closed the gate long before I reached negotiating distance.
Return journey was rather more sobering. Being interrogated in a cold fluorescent-strip-lit hall by French customs at 2am isn't as charming as it sounds, although their approach may have been influenced by the arrest of two passengers for (I believe) drug possession, and a third for using a passport containing a picture of someone else entirely. Being interrogated by British immigration at 3am, one building further on, was a comparative pleasure. Despite all this, I cannot honestly recommend travelling by coach, even if your slender budget rules out a hotel. Eurostar next time, I think.
Nachthorn's summary of Paris:
Hearing lots of organs on Sunday - good.
Cafe food - very good.
Day pass for Metro - indispensable.
Entrance fee for Sainte-Chapelle - extortionate*.
Overnight coach trips - bad.
(*And I should add that access to Sainte-Chapelle is through the Palais de Justice, where you have to pass through an airport-style security check. I didn't care as I have to endure an identical process at work every day, but some might find the combination of body-search and entrance fee a little off-putting.)
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Must be all those people who stroll up and comment on the console looking like an aeroplane cockpit.
Mr Briggs is a keen aviator too.
The same Mr. Briggs has an excellent picture of a large jet flight-deck equipped with a Cavaille-Coll console
I must admit that the feeling of controlling an airport is similar to that of playing a large, exciting but occasionally temperamental organ, the obvious difference being that I'm allowed to make mistakes when playing the organ... and I do
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Almost anything on this organ is apt to send me to sleep. (I assume we are thinking of the same one.)
Yes.
The place with the funny stained-glass?Yes.
I took a couple of friends to have an evening on this organ a year or so ago. Two of us didn't know it, my other friend did. We found ourselves rather underwhelmed by it. It certainly didn't live up to expectations.Underwhelming is the world. With seventy-odd stops, the Tuba anoraks assume that it is world-shaking; instead it's just dull. The last new Edwardian organ in England? Our beloved Drake has buckets more colour and life.
I suspect the acid test of an enjoyable Bach performance is whether the performer is enjoying the experience. The majority of us (who simply wish we could play Bach properly) get a thrill from such performances, even on the least promising instruments.Agreed, but the least promising instruments surely evoke far less joy than the most promising. You could play Bach on a pub upright (with the special jangly tuning) and enjoy it to an extent but it would be far more rewarding on a Metzler.
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If organists want to continue to play 200 year old out of date music on organs built as, or bastardised into, 200 year out of date instruments, especially of a nature that is so mathematical, people will consider it either to be irrelevant and out of date, or mathematical and played by a robot, and talk through it.
I have been to a number of recitals given by some very good (nationally-known) players on a very large heavy-sounding Romantic four-manual built only fifty years ago. Bach on this instrument, regardless of executant, sends me to sleep. Bach played on a particularly good two manual built twenty years ago (as a 200 year-old out of date instrument) made me jump around with excitement. Christopher Herrick's complete Bach on Swiss Metzler instruments (no doubt similarly archaic - no Tubas) has the same effect. Both the Metzler instruments and the nearby two-manual are direct products of the Organ Reform movement, built by leading craftsmen.
IMHO Bach suffers from the 'sacred cow' effect. Some are put off by the exacting 'authentic performance' techniques that are in vogue, others show off because they embrace these techniques as a form of superiority. One cannot simply 'just play' Bach. Dig down past the fuss and discover the music, played on appropriate, often very archaic instruments, and it is wonderful. THAT is what needs communicating to the world.
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Ah.................well, we could have a gathering of list members afterwards!!!
NS
Quite happy to. I suggest we sport large badges on our lapels proclaiming both our nationality and our undying love for the organ, in order to identify ourselves.
On second thoughts, this could get us beaten up.
Suggestions?
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What this all boils down to is the perenial question of what to do to attract young members? Quite honestly, I don't have the answer to that, but I'm certainly not prepared to just be pushed aside, talked down to and basically told to keep quiet just because I'm young.
A few months ago, as a committee member of my local association, I spent time putting together a document detailing what I thought were the group's strengths and weaknesses, and some suggested short- to medium-term plans for the future, plus some sketches of longer-term plans. I was ambitious, but no more ambitious than was both practical and necessary for the 'advancement' of the organ as a musical instrument in our region, something which I believe was part of said association's aims. I was also polite and constructive without missing the point. I did this to open a few people's eyes, spark sensible debate and to generally stir the stagnant waters.
Well, with a couple of very honourable exceptions, the committee did an excellent impression of being slapped with a wet fish. Needless to say it was a total waste of effort, but I wasn't prepared for just how defensive certain people in 'positions of power' within these groups can be. I know exactly what David means by being pushed aside and talked down to, just because you're young, but isn't not just about that - it's about the status quo and the maintenance thereof.
I no longer belong to the association, mostly for entirely innocent reasons - I spend most of my week in another part of the country now - but had I remained, I would be torn between leaving through despair, and staying and persevering to improve things.
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Last Sunday Exeter Cathedral girls and men came to sing Evensong at my local parish church... Actually being in the congregation was an eye-opener. Although this church is quite traditionally minded, with a choir and something of a musical tradition, I had no great hopes that the congregation would show any musical sophistication. But I didn't expect quite the level of pig-ignorance that was shown.
As Vox knows, I spent a hair-tearingly frustrating year as D of M at this particular church. If Vox had asked, I could have quite happily told him to expect the pig-ignorance he encountered
As it was, I wanted to attend this particular Evensong, but just can't bring myself to visit this church again after the unhappy time I had there.I always make a point of sitting and listening to the organ voluntary (unless I can't stand the fistfuls of random notes and odd noises which passes for music in some churches, in which case I disappear quickly lest someone asks me what I thought of it...) but find that I have to give real 'leave-me-alone'* vibes to the various people who try to engage me in conversation the moment the voluntary begins. Do other people find this necessary?
*This isn't exactly what I mean, but is quite enough for genteel fora such as this
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Eagle eyes may notice that Oliver Condy, the magazine's editor, was one of the registrants.
Out of interest, people may be interested to know that David is playing a recital in Notre-Dame de Paris on Low Sunday at 4.30pm, programme below30 March Notre-Dame de Paris at 4.30pm
Choral Improvisation sur le Victimae Paschali (Tournemire/Durufle)
Christ ist erstanden (J S Bach)
Mors et resurrectio (Jean Langlais)
Te Deum (Jeanne Demessieux)
Improvisation on 'Haec Dies' (DB)
See you there!!
I'll be there!
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I know something of this. There is planned a new instrument by Mander with a case design similar to that of Chelmsford Cathedral west end instrument, with a Chair case. So far they've raised just over half of the £380,000 needed to commission the instrument and west end gallery. I don't know the spec yet.
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Bill Drake's instrument in St. John's Bridgetown, Totnes, Devon.
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Google tells me he's been there a while, plus he let me play the organ when I was passing back in 2004!
Yep
And an excellent successor to Andrew Nethsingha - the choir there are wonderful. -
Barry is very kind, and yes, fine liturgy and music are explicitly part of this church's plan for mission. In the interests of accuracy and modesty I should add that the growth recorded is 50% over 18 months, though another 50% is planned for over the next 18 months, and I fimrly believe this will happen.
I only wish that more parish clergy had Fr Patrick's determination and perceptive skills. Parishes with a good standard of liturgy and music should be the norm, not the exception, and while the Anglican church here generally still seems to be heading down the slippery slope of '70s folk music and hand clapping, there are signs that the Roman Catholic church in America is starting to experience a revival of good liturgy and art music driven, it would seem, as much by younger people as by anyone. I hope this is a sign of things to come in the Anglican church, probably in about, oh, twenty years or so...
While I sympathise with Barry's view that a great deal of the cultural loss is driven by clergy, I have met a number of clergy who would like something better than worship songs but aren't able to discern the way forward, particularly when encumbered with aging congregations with fond memories of folk music past, a lack of good trained musicians willing to work for the church (and peanuts), and a general tide of inclusive, PC multi-culturalism heading in the opposite direction. Having seen plenty of books written for clergy by clergy detailing successful church 'renewals', perhaps it's time for Fr. Patrick and others to tell the story of the part that liturgy and music has to play in the success that their churches have experienced.
The Choral Evensong broadcasts, I think, have a significant part to play in showing the world how important good liturgy and music is, and thank God they're returning to the Wednesday broadcasts! (I'm also thankful that two of this board's most august members avoided a written skirmish by judicious application of the transmitting wired phonograph!)
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spottedmetal
I'm sorry you felt squashed by earlier comments, some of which may have been mine - to do so was not my intention, but I felt it important to put my view forward as a 'twenty-something'.
Having seen the YouTube clip, I haven't changed my mind. An unimpressive electronic synthesiser* plus a few disco lights and some bursting balloons are unlikely to turn people on to the actual pipe organ proper, and children/teenagers are likely to snigger at the half-heartedness of it all - they'll have heard far more realistic explosions in video games and films. There is a lot to be said for a player with an approachable personality playing engaging repertoire on a decent organ.
Nh
*I appreciate the fact that the recording is not tip-top which may have influenced the sound to some extent, but the point remains.
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Nachthorn - there's a CD on the Calliope label (CAL 9937) Escaich plays Escaich. "This CD covers most of my organ works and also the Motets for 12 voices and organ. The programme begins and ends with a short improvisation .........." Recorded at St Etienne du Mont where I believe he is organist. As you say, modern and unapologetic, which is probably why it is not heard very often (if at all). Nevetheless I recommend the CD if you want to hear him.
Thanks Jim. Will look it out.
John - I'm currently Organist Without Congregation, but in any case I never said that they'd necessarily enjoy the Escaich
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As someone still on the right side of thirty, I would argue strongly that we need to showcase our wonderful exciting instrument at its very best. No embarassing gimmicks, no haphazard arrangements of music never suitable for the organ, no patronising stances or over-enthusiastic comments about the sheer range of sound it can produce. Children and teenagers are not stupid - indeed they have a clear and unbiased viewpoint that puts that of most adults to shame, although modern culture is eroding this away with its cynicism and requirement for 'cool'.
I'm not suggesting playing a whole Vierne symphony to a primary school class - common sense should always prevail - but I feel that, if we present good examples of the instrument in a straight but engaging way - remember the teacher who most inspired you at school: their approach - people will make up their minds based on the organ's merits alone.
In case of confusion, I don't mean to criticise Spottedmetal's upcoming event - the very best of luck, it sounds exciting! I'm talking about a general approach to a wider audience.
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It has a few pieces by André Jolivet on it - someone who had previously been only a name to me. ...
Has anyone heard works by Thierry Escaich? I've only heard a couple, on a disc from S. Etienne-du-Mont in Paris played by Vincent Warnier, but they are superb - modern, unapologetic, but very focussed and hugely satisfying. (They are 'Eaux natales' and 'Vers l'espérance' from 'Poèmes', for those taking notes.) I've sought more on disc, but without success thus far. I wonder about the technical standard needed to carry them off, but I'd love to play the two movements mentioned as voluntaries, and I wonder about the reaction.
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I enjoyed quite the reverse reaction recently, when I played the organ for a Mass at another church.
I've had the same positive reaction to quieter pieces by Alain and Mathias (as examples) but a negative reaction to Langlais played fortissimo. Maybe loud and modern is too much to take in one sitting, but quiet and modern is a little more approachable.
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Sadly I have no information on what the RCs did in Paris in Saint-Saëns's time; I don't even have a copy of Liber usualis.
Liber Usualis is available as a freely downloadable PDF file from here. There some other useful stuff from the same site.
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This is something I've thought about quite a bit. There is a work by Dupré for organ and piano, when Gordon Stewart and Darius Battiwalla recorded at Huddersfield Town Hall on Foxglove - can't remember the title, but I don't find it very compelling, and I like Dupré!
I wouldn't have thought a piano concerto arranged for organ and piano to be in particularly bad taste, and would certainly offer a new way of hearing the organ.
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That's bizarre. I'm sure it was also once on the grade 4 list!
It was - I did it in about 1994.
I agree with the comments about the Naxos Worcester recording - even as a complete beginner when I bought the disc, I realised there was something decidedly odd about the sound the instrument made... not ideal for Howells at all.
And an excellent successor to Andrew Nethsingha - the choir there are wonderful.
R3 Evensong - Buckfast Abbey, July 2006
in The Organ
Posted
Did anyone record this off-air in 2006? I was actually there, so didn't get to record it, but the 'listen on-line' version I downloaded afterwards is fairly messy, sonically speaking. If anyone has this broadcast in any convenient format and could send me a copy, I'd be very grateful and would reimburse postage etc.
Many thanks, NH.