nachthorn
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Posts posted by nachthorn
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I have just spotted this and will probably buy it - but elements of its content can only be played on a SACD machine. Can anyone advise as to whether this is the way things are going now - is it worth buying a SACD player to connect up to my system to replace my fairly cheap CD player or do I need a completely new system? Also - can they be played on a PC and what about iTunes etc.? Judging by the music, instrument and player there might possibly be one or two others on here in the same predicament.
Thanks in advance!
AJJ
There's no easy answer at the moment. There is an ongoing 'format war' between SACD and DVD-Audio, with neither format getting anywhere fast. Relatively few players will play SACDs, and they're not at the cheap end of the market. SACD is further crippled by allowing audio output in analogue format only, so any transfer to another medium (eg. iTunes) will need to involve recording onto a PC via an audio interface with six analogue inputs to get the full surround. You could conceivably just connect and record Front Left and Front Right for normal stereo playback - the effectiveness will depend on the recorded material.
In theory, SACD offers an easy way of playing surround audio at a high quality. In practice, very little material is produced to use these features (some SACDs are just remixed stereo CD recordings) and few people have the means to play them back. If you see a good quality CD/SACD player for a reasonable price, there is no harm in upgrading from your existing player. I wouldn't, however, advise anyone to splash out on a new player unless there are other benefits besides SACD playback. Eventually, one format or the other (and SACD may just have the upper hand at the moment) will win and may therefore start to supplant CDs in the medium term. Right now, it's just a niche. Watch this space...
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The St. Paul's set is very recognisably from St. Paul's, which makes it sound rather different from the average British cathedral*, but very well-recorded and sung IMHO. The liner notes are excellent, as always with Hyperion. I haven't heard any of the Priory set, so can't compare.
*Big acoustic, predominant treble line, rather slower 'rate' of chanting due to aforementioned acoustic.
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Since the death of Marian Sawa in Poland, I don't know if any other comparable name has yet emerged.
MM, do you know if Sawa's music is available in the UK? I located one publisher, but their website is only in Polish, and (with the aid of a dictionary) I managed to determine that the only payment is by Polish bank cheque or cash on delivery, said delivery within Poland only. I'm particularly keen to get hold of a copy of Sekwens, which IMHO is wonderful stuff.
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Some very interesting points raised. I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't vicar-bashing in my last post - I don't think it hints at that anywhere, in fact. Nor am I against pop music. I was pointing out how many parishes of relatively high average age spend a lot of time navel-gazing and exchanging committee-speak about the problem of 'the young people' and manage to produce deeply old-fashioned music as their answer, rather than (dare I say it) seeking to be truly relevant to the lives of people of all ages without managing to horribly patronising. Only a deep seated arrogance presumes to know what people like and dislike without even asking, and this kind of attitude will always come to a bad end - the only question is how much of value will be lost in the process.
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Is there no influence from bodies such as the RSCM and the RCO in the clergy training colleges?
As if... In fact, the RSCM seems quite happy aboard the worship song/gospel/Iona bandwagon at the moment. Perhaps the new Director will set them back on course.My wife is a singer/singing teacher. The recently-ordained curate of a local parish church of simple Anglo-Catholic tradition is paying for weekly hour-long singing lessons so that she can tackle the bread-and-butter sung parts of the Mass. She said that she had no musical training at all during her theological studies, and she felt that the vast majority of new ordinands wouldn't know a neume from a bagpipe (or words to that effect). No wonder they stick to the secular styles they already know - I certainly can't blame them.
** Rant alert **
What astonishes me, as a thoughtful traditionalist Christian in his twenties, is that some clergy and PCCs think that they can 'attract the young people' by importing weak copies of horribly old-fashioned folk/pop (the Spinners and Seekers stuff mentioned by Barry) and turning the spoken liturgy into something resembling council committee minutes. I sometimes feel guilty because, on some Sundays, I just can't find the strength of will to walk into a church, run the gauntlet of suspicious stares simply because I'm under 50, try to stay awake during the sermon, try to sing the terrible songs anyway (and receive further malevolent glances for letting the side down by actually singing, rather than simply emitting low groans) and try not to feel bewildered and disappointed by the whole affair. Most Anglican parish churches are run by the over-60's for the over-60's*, and no amount of window-dressing, dumbing-down, politically correcting, rubbish pop music etc. is going to make up for that. These young people want some honesty, true belief, inspiration, and decent coffee at the end of it!
The Roman Catholic church seems to be experiencing something of an upsurge of younger people wanting something more than barren 60's-80's modernism. The Latin mass, plainsong, choral music and a whole host of other traditional ideas seem to be making a comeback in certain places. How long before they pass the Anglican church going the other way?
(*Note: I would like to make it clear that I have no argument with the over-60's!)
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Top notch Colin
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Did you work out what the bloody thing can be used for?
Worms (can of)
On the (numerous) recordings of the Gloucester instrument, the Cremona certainly seems to work effectively in Classical French repertoire. Just not in Stanford.
Repeat after me: Must. Prepare. Properly. On. Unfamilar. Instruments!
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10-4 revives a nightmare I hoped I had wiped for ever from my memory!
JC
Me too! He was unbelievably gracious about it, but I still wanted to crawl under a log.
Time to share all, gentlemen!
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Not exactly a code, but t a crematorium that shall be nameless, the chapel attendant once slipped me a note during a service that read: "switch your monitor to camera 3 - short skirt in front row!"
Have a good friend who played at Exeter Cathedral for his college's carol service a few years ago, and was pleased to find the remote control and zoom functions on the CCTV screen in the loft there. He did some good zooming in from above, but made the terrible mistake of later inviting the nubile targets of his furtive surveillance to visit the organ loft, and didn't reset the CCTV, which rather gave the game away.
He also claims that, on another occasion at Exeter, using the camera system he spotted a woman in a big hat peering into the mouth of one of the Contra Violone pipes in the south transept. You can guess the rest. Apparently the hat came clean off, which he wasn't expecting. Sadly this was in the days before YouTube...
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In which case, could you simply type this, please?!!
Otherwise it will become like the dialogue on U.S. police dramas - with a code of numbers and letters for various offences and situations....
(Starting a new topic to avoid ruining the Bach organ one...) There are some times when temptation is just too great. This is one of them...
CODES FOR ORGAN-IC EMERGENCY SITUATIONS
10-0 Power failure, blower won't start.
10-1 Sense of humour failure, organist won't start.
10-2 Last minute change of hymns - take cover.
10-3 Dropped console key between pedals.
10-4 Wiped off the piston settings for tonight's celebrity recitalist.
10-5 Arrive home from cathedral visit with celebrity recitalist's music instead of yours.
10-6 Hymns played from wrong hymnbook. No difference made to congregation's singing.
10-7 Drunk while playing Bach. Receive unexpected applause at the end.
10-8 Mental block while improvising. Result sounds like something by Margaret Rizza.
Over to you
(For the genuine police codes, see here.)
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The Gloucester pedal mutations utterly transformed the organ, adding not only much-needed gravitas, but also considerable definition and 'bite' to the pedal line. Speaking more quickly than a 32' flue (and at a fraction of the cost), they are incredibly useful, sounding like a good 32' Violone when carefully blended with 16s and 8s. You need to be brave with them: when effective downstairs, they can sound too loud from the console when supporting pp to mf manual mélanges. As Paul implies, they certainly broadened the reed, the one part of the rebuild that disappointed, especially having encountered the wonderful half-length 32 (by Austin) at Springfield Cathedral, Massachusetts whilst on tour with the choir that same year.
I must admit that I've not been brave playing at Gloucester since my first visit when, after too-little practice time, on a whim I used the Choir Cremona while accompanying Stanford...
My mistake. I'll try to get someone else to play while I listen downstairs this time round. Also pleased to hear that the 32' reed has been revisited - I thought that it sounded like a pneumatic drill when I first heard it, although again, only from the loft - evidently not the best place to judge from. -
I can add that the Pedal mutations at Nôtre-Dame are more effective than the 32p Principal; these consist of a Grose Quinte 10 2/3p, a Grande Tierce 6 2/5p, a Quinte 5 1/3p and a Septième at 4 4/7p. Oddly, as far as I know, Léfébvre barely uses them, instead preferring the very gently purring 32p Principal with the Soubasse 16p and the more pungent tones of the Contrebasse 16p.
Is anyone in a position to compare the mutations at Nôtre-Dame with those added at Gloucester in 1999? I've played the Gloucester instrument a number of times (and again next weekend!) but have never been particularly impressed with the effect of the mutations - that said, I've rarely heard them from a position other than the console, which might not be a fair test.
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I really was looking forward to a techno slug-fest.
First time for everything
No apology necessary - I was just aware that I was taking it a bit off-topic, which wasn't exactly a help to you. Still, I suppose it's all good stuff, as long as I don't mention nu.... oops, nearly! -
Many thanks for a thorough and constructive reply. I found AMT's book a few months ago, which condensed a number of my thoughts on practice technique - something neither I nor many seem to have been taught, but which seems invaluable. I have learnt one or two pieces using the new technique, to very good effect, which has given me much hope for the future.
I also have both of David Sanger's books and the Hurford book - the latter seems a little academic at times, but there is plenty of practical advice there too. I must admit to fighting shy of finding a teacher - I had a friendly teacher at school when I started, who nonetheless avoided technique and scales wherever possible. When I went to university, I had two teachers in two years who I just didn't feel comfortable with, and since then, I've had about three lessons in the last six years - not inspiring stuff. Bournemouth does seem to have a number of good players around, though, who may teach.
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But to prove the point, you can decode B-format not in real-time, e.g. using VVMic. You'd have to have a seriously slow machine for it not to work in real time, though. I use VVMic with my new surround microphone
Paul
Tried VVMic - it seemed the best bet compared to various VST plugins, in fact - but it was behaving erratically and didn't like my MOTU interface. I see that the version I have is a little old now, so I'll try the latest version. The TetraMic looks good - I use a Soundfield ST250 which does OK, but I shudder to think what I'd do if it packed up. The Tetra seems more practically priced
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The competition re CD collection size and relative processing power looks much more fun
Sorry Barry, it was something of a tangent
I recorded a concert for Vox over a year ago in surround, just to try it out, and have failed to actually make the thing decode without glitches - a lack of processing power is my excuse.My main point was to recommend Windows Media Player 11, as I have found it to be pretty reliable, even when listening on good speakers. If you're having problems, I would suspect the sound card drivers or perhaps the sound card itself. WAV or lossless WMA files should sound identical to CD audio (or better, depending on the source) although you should expect various degrees of audible artefacts in MP3 or lossy WMA recordings.
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Give me some of your 300+ CDs.
You've already got two!
Really? Really really? How about more processing power?Oh, now that's not fair
From the point of view of playing back recordings already mastered, especially from disparate sources, my setup is very good. For making a surround/stereo decode of four tracks of B-format, now yes, I might allow that a little more processing power would help... I was talking about the playback side, rather than the recording side (totally different software, some extra hardware). -
After spending the last three years in a large city in the West of England almost entirely devoid of good instruments, I'm shortly moving to Bournemouth and will have access to a tracker instrument suitable for decent practice. I did Grade 8 in 1999, and haven't formally progressed since, although my experience and capabilities have obviously improved over time. I have heard about, and acquired, books 2 and 3 of Flor Peeters' Ars Organi which look to be pretty useful in terms of technique and repertoire. Has anyone else used these, and how have people found them? Or is there something better I should be using?
My aim is to get rid of those nasty habits I've picked up (especially my horrible tendency to learn pieces by repetitive sight-reading, rather than by careful assimilation of muscle-memory) and to develop my technique to a level where I can confidently sit the ARCO practical in the next couple of years, and also to expand my repertoire to match.
NH
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Yes - the one in that cathedral that looks like a power station. (Sorry, Stephen!) I suppose I have to take your colleague's word for it since he knows the instrument and I don't (except for the experieinces I mentioned), but I have to say I am surprised.
This must be a tricky one. I know both VH and GM (the other gentlemen in question) and equally respect their opinions and knowledge. Making it even more difficult (as I've never been to Guildford - it's only recently that I found out that you don't pronounce the 'd'
) the only recording I have of the instrument doesn't give the impression of an inspiring instrument at all, yet both the playing (GM again) and the recording (by another good friend whose skills I trust totally) should be excellent, and the disc in question received very good reviews.That said, Vox, you and GM have very different tastes regarding repertoire and instruments - both good, but different...
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I did some practical research on this before settling on Windows Media Player 11 as my software of choice. I use it to rip, store and index, and playback all of my music at home*. I store music in Lossless WMA format, which for me compresses audio to approximately a third of the original WAV size but without losing a single bit of data (analogous to a ZIP file) - WMP will do the conversion. I use professional equipment connected to the PC for playback (a MOTU 2408 interface and HHB Circle 5 monitors) and the sound quality is identical to that of the original CD. Sound cards in PCs vary wildly in quality, as do the software drivers for said cards - under Windows at least, it is often the driver that is the weakest link.
I can't really fault my setup at all, aside from the fact that WMP11's features are designed for pop, not classical music, so for organ music, 'contributing artist' becomes 'location' and so on. I would recommend WMP11 both for simple playback, and for more complex tasks such as creating a searchable music library (as I have done). iTunes may fulfil this function well too, but personally I didn't like it - others may. RealPlayer - never!
* In case you wonder, I own every CD I have ripped and stored. Barry will probably tell me that it's illegal to make a copy in another format like this - certainly I can't find any advice to the contrary - but I feel that morally I'm OK, and it is the only practical way to listen to the 300+ CDs I own! Your thoughts, perhaps?
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I don't know what's worse - the fact that you can look up forty year old copies of The Organ at the drop of a hat, or that I was apparently reading it 3 years before I was born...
As a matter of interest, is it your impression that the technique was successful - does the instrument work better with the hall full?
I unearthed the article from the BOA in Birmingham while waiting for the instrument to be made available - during the first six months of my time at the university, the hall was being renovated and the organ was wrapped up against the dust. For me, that particular quote was rather memorable!I never heard it when the hall was full, but the sound was spine-tingling and almost overwhelming in the empty building, and very fine when the hall was approximately one third full. My guess would be that the technique was successful, but I can't be sure. I do wish that this instrument was better known, as it has the potential to be a very good instrument indeed, especially with the acoustic provided. Here is a picture of the hall when full - you get a reasonable impression of the sheer scale of the building - the organ has a 32' front.
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Did I once read somewhere that Birmingham Uni was voiced with a sack of newspaper on every chair in the hall, for this very reason?
Indeed. There was an article in The Organ following the 1967 rebuild, which explained that, as the university 'like any institution which possesses a Computer, has a great deal of waste paper' (
)which was used to fill a sack on every seat in the VERY reverberant hall.A very interesting organ, incidentally - very much of its time, and certainly an instrument of parts, as the Swell and Solo remained largely romantic, while the Great and Pedal became decidedly neo-Baroque. The Choir, a small Positive division made new in '67 and located at the front of the case in a box/tone cabinet, is very beautifully voiced. I played this instrument for two years until 2001, and enjoyed it very much.
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There is no need for a written source: just compare the original recording of Tournemire's improvisation (EMI) with the printed text of the Duruflé-transcription.
Yes, that would work! Sadly I own neither at present, so I couldn't check this myself...
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A few years back when I was a lowly organ scholar, I remember a final choir rehearsal before a Nine Lessons and Carols. The trebles were a little bored and rather distracted by the activity of sidepersons preparing for the service in a distant side-aisle. Finally, the choirmaster lost his cool and shouted, "For goodness sake, concentrate! Even if the Lord Himself appears in front of you, you keep singing!" A moment of silent contemplation followed, then a sardonic tenor remarked, "Now that WOULD be a miracle..."
As if... In fact, the RSCM seems quite happy aboard the worship song/gospel/Iona bandwagon at the moment. Perhaps the new Director will set them back on course.
My mistake. I'll try to get someone else to play while I listen downstairs this time round. Also pleased to hear that the 32' reed has been revisited - I thought that it sounded like a pneumatic drill when I first heard it, although again, only from the loft - evidently not the best place to judge from.
Sacd
in General discussion
Posted
The JAV details that Alastair links to says "This disc will play on a standard CD player, but an SACD player is needed to hear it in Surround Sound and Daniel Roth’s narrated tour." i.e. most of the content is also available as a stereo downmix as well as surround, but the narrated tour is surround only.
Richer Sounds have a good range of audio equipment at reasonable prices - here's one example of an SACD player.