jonadkins
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Posts posted by jonadkins
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And have you noticed how he never writes a simple tempo instruction at the beginning of a piece, but always qualifies it: "Allegro, assai ritmico"; "Lento, poco appenato"; "Quasi quieto assai, non troppo lento, ma espressivo e poco risvegliato"? (OK, I made that last one up.)
Come on, VH, you'll have to translate that last one for ignorami such as myself!
I don't think I've seen anyone other than Howells use the terms affanoso and poco appenato and ancora piu (cresc.) Come to think of it, with the exception of the last one, what do they mean?
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I agree that this was a bit of a 'whistle-stop tour', but the point was well made about the speeds. The point has sometimes been made that the Nativite doesn't hang together well as a programme when played through in one sitting, but if you reserve the really slow playing for the second half of Le Verbe and Desseins Eternels, and keep a sense of direction the other movements, the whole thing makes much better sense. To this end, I agreed with the choice of DGW, but Latry has his moments, particularly at the end of Jesus accepte la souffrance, where the sheer power of the Notre Dame tutti is thrillingly caught.
Not sure how easily you could obtain some of the recordings, though: Innig? Louise Marsh? After the programme I would have been interested to hear more of Marie-Claire Alain's version. Has anyone got this?
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This sounds not dissimilar (in terms of difficulty, if not musical language) to the music of Sorabji, whom Bowyer also holds in high esteem...
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As far as established names go, John Scott and Thomas Trotter are still very much "at the top of their game", for most things other than JSB, and I still maintain that Trotter is my favourite Messiaen interpreter - just listen to his recording of L'Ascension and the Messe de la Pentecote from Douai.
As for younger, though established names, two names that spring to mind are David Bednall and Henry Fairs, both of whom have impressed me very much in recitals. International? I suppose Johannes Geffert from Cologne stands out, and for French repertoire Daniel Roth is clearly still inspirational, although I sometimes find him a little heavy-going in German Romantic stuff.
Clearly, Briggs is also able to imitate many facets of Cochereau's style - as he did on a number of occasions during lessons (all of which I have on tape). However, he has a far broader range of interest and stylistic knowledge than simply this one area. Often, lessons were based on a theme (not a musical idea, but a particular composer, period, style or form). There were naturally also times when he encouraged free improvisation.
Yes - I agree about Briggs' improvisation. In an 'Improvisation workshop' , Briggs beckoned to a lad of about ten or eleven to "come over and play Gloucester cathedral organ". He got him to play a sort of ground bass, over which Briggs improvised very effectively in the style of Couperin! A bit gimmicky I suppose, but it makes the point! Clearly, though, the strength of Cochereau's musical language and influence is such that many will be accused of sounding like him, even when its is not justified.
I think it was Martin Baker who listed one of his musical interests in his biog. notes as "improvisation in styles NOT influenced by Pierre Cochereau"!
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I have just seen that this is available on Harmonia Mundi, with Rene Saorgin playing. Does anyone posess this, or does anyone know Saorgin's playing, or have an alternative set which they would recommend?
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Does anyone here do Rupert Jeffcoat's wonderful Third Service (Mag & Nunc). I've looked everywhere for a copy, but I'm blowed if I can find one.
Any leads gratefully accepted.
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Some advice please. A young organist has asked me for some advice on which edition to go for with Widor symphonies. My own organ music is half a mile away at the moment and I can't quite thing what I've got. All editions look the same (not including the OUP version of the Symph 5 Toccata in the Wedding Music album) . He has seen two volumes by Dover which are very reasonably priced. Are these any good for performance? They are large enough to use and, as I say, look just like photo-ed versions of whatever edition it is that I use. What should he do?
Martin.
I should avoid the Dover also because it seems to have been contrived to have the maximum number of unnecessary page turns, particularly in pieces which are only two sides long (eg the fourth movement of Widor's fifth).
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Organ music at the Proms is very welcome, and our kind hosts must be very pleased. However, I found myself getting slightly annoyed as I read through the list.
If the Proms do one thing, they introduce us to the familiar and the not so familiar; which is how it should be.
Not wanting to be political, but unable to avoid being so, do folk remember the outcry recently, when some ghastly woman suggested that the Proms were "elitist," and that they should appeal more to "ordinary people," whatever and whoever they are?
For me, I find this rather predictable list of "things you know but can't get enough of" terribly disappointing, as if the organ establishment have decided to present "Classics for Pleasure," as the only thing which would be aceptable to the great unwashed.
When we have had Czech music, American music, Tuvan throat singers andall sorts of odd-ball things thrown at us, so why can't the organ estabishment come up with something interesting, original and...well...exciting for a change.
Have we become so narrow minded, that we are in danger of reducing the organ repertoire to that of two composers, two Toccatas and one symphony?
It's just an insult to the intelligence of the Prom audiences, who are rather sophisticated on the whole.
I would also question whether the Royal Albert Hall full of Promers, is really the right place to have so much very religiously inspired music, which demands a certain special atmosphere.
What's wrong with playing to the gallery?
There are three to choose from, and enough music around to blow the socks off the audience.
"Disappointed of Yorkshire"
MM
Dear Disappointed of Yorkshire,
Please give us the programmes (and players, if applicable) you would have wanted to see, then!
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(On the subject of Sacred Music generally - does anyone else find Sanders' Reproaches a perfect blend of words and music? I was close to tears this (Good Friday) morning. It always does that to me.)
Yes - These are much more than simply an english cathedral organist trying his hand at composition. Peter King commented (after his excellent Bath Abbey choir performed them) on their similarity, in some ways, to Bruckner (which I think he intended as a compliment!)
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"Pour aller chercher Midi à quatorze heures?"
I thought the language of this Board was English. Please translate, for the benefit of thise of us who have no French.
Barry Williams
"Looking for Noon at 2pm". Rather a good metaphor to my mind...
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The old french way to write étude was something like estude, étranger : estranger.
And indeed some people with very thick south of France accent (as my grandmother) would still pronounce "estranger", including the S pronouciation.
It's a very old love story between french and english languages.
Yes, guess how I pronounced "Balbastre" the other day, and what is more I can't pretend I'm from the South of France!
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the three inevitable carol-anthems (all on different days).
Inevitable they might well be: this does not preclude them from being outstanding pices of music, which will particularly strike those hearing them for the first time!
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I think he's been there, done that, got the tee-shirt years ago. Wasn't he a music teacher in Cirencester or somewhere like that - or am I totally confusing him with someone else?
Yes - Cirencester Grammar School.
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I tried a "Bach organs" topic, which had to be dropped.....
"Clarity" meant, in the 20th century, screaming machines as upperwork.
This was already the case by Bonavia-Hunt's time, when he wrote the basis
of "baroque" organs was 4', not 8'. (I linked to the complete book...)
But when you see organs from Bach's time, they are based on sometimes
five flue 8' !
They are actually quite heavy and ponderous, but the clarity, the precision,
the attack, is in the flues themselves.
And when you add the Mixtures, you soon realize they weren't intended
to be used all the time....
But I fear it's still too early to continue...
Pierre
Have you read Gillian Weir's article entitled, I think, "Marshmallows and Lemon Juice"? (available on her website) She is wonderfully eloquent about just this topic (Foundations and/versus mixtures).
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B) 
-What is an organ ?
-What is "great" music ?
Pierre
This is too profound for me, Pierre!
I know the problems with the Elgar (that it is orchestral and so on), but I can't honestly say that they impair my enjoyment of this wonderful work! Mind you, the title is "The greatest" rather than our favourite British organ work, so the Bairstow it is. However, for all that this is a very fine piece of writing and certainly one of the best, using the term "greatest" to describe it still seems odd.
I would also like to echo pcnd in speaking up for the Harris sonata
As for miniatures/smaller scale works: does anyone know the Parry Elegy?
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Kevin Bowyer plays and records so much, it slightly begs the question of whether all of that music is really of the first order.
Compare that to Keith John who once observed (rather foolishly, in my view) that the reason he played so many transcriptions for the organ was that the original organ repertoire 'contained so little good music'.
May I suggest that the truth lays somewhere between those two positions ? Is that hornet's nest I can suddenly hear ?
Best regards,
M
Oh no! Not another of those music appreciation/bashing(usually the latter) threads! Even though they are interesting, the cumulative effect of reading through them is depressing as somewhere along the line, every composer or work you hold dear is rubbished by someone.
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Best of luck with this, Holz. I will leave the advice to those more qualified to give it, though I concur fully with the comments already made, particularly Cynic's.
In your initial post you mentioned your "monthly concerts": I, for one would be interested to know what you play at these. Could you give us, say, the last two programmes?
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As ever, sound advice so far. My only addition, and I realise this will be scant comfort, is that you should be grateful they didn't ask for Barwick Green - yes - The Archers theme, which muggins had to play last year. I know that there are any number of "tasteful" things you can do, but if the people in question don't recognise it, then the object has been defeated! Never again, though. This particalar music is so "in your face" in its jaunty 6/8-ness!
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I had always known this work (BWV 769) with the movements in this order:
canon in the octave
fifth
seventh
by augmentation
various
and thought that the movement with various canons by inversion a glorious way to end a work which I have gradually come to realise is one of Bach's greatest and most beautiful. Now, the generally accepted practice seems to be to end with the canon by augmentation:
octave
fifth
various
seventh
augmentation
This may well be the "authentic" order, but I can't help prefering the other one! What do others think?
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Rather than digress in the "Once in Royal/O Come" thread, I thought I would ask these questions here, prompted as I was by pcnd's mention of the Cleobury descant for Once in Royal.
Firstly, pcnd, do you use the Cleobury descant yourself, or have you just liked it whenever you've heard it?
I have also been reminded of the discussion in the feature section of the DVD from King's, where Cleobury, Philip Ledger and David Willcocks talk about various aspects of their time at the College Chapel. Cleobury mentions a letter he received quite early on, asking "when was he going to revert to the "proper" descants"?! (meaning Willcocks') Ledger then tells a similar tale of a chorister being affronted when he handed out his new descants at a practice. Willcocks then makes the point that perhaps they've made life difficult for the next director of music there because there are only so many (one or two) descants that can be written on a given carol/hymn.
I think he has a point, certainly if you don't change the harmonies, but even if you do, it is all too easy to sound as if you're trying too hard to stretch the harmonic possibilties of a tune in an effort to make it sound different from another, established descant, particularly when you bare in mind that you are trying to lead the congregation in worship!
Do you agree, and which are the most successful examples?
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Some good points have been made and good suggestions given, but once you are into discussing subjective perception of "difficulty" there is potentially no end to the argument! It would seem the exam board are being a bit fickle. Exactly what guidelines/criteria have they given?
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There were only three - all of which were derived from one stopped wooden rank. The specification as printed in The Organ Volume III No. 12 (April 1924) lists the folllowing mutations and mixtures:
Double Quint 21 1/3
Quint 10 2/3 (Parent rank)
Twelfth 5 1/3
Mixture (17-19-22) III
Fourniture (15-19-22-26-29) V
By the mid-1970s, the organ booklet which was available at that time listed no Pedal mutations - and the composition of the three-rank Mixture had been altered to 15-19-22.
Given that there is still a Resultant bass (64ft.) - which I found to be strangely unsatisfying in quiet music - and three full-length 32ft. flues, I suspect that the mutations proved to be ineffective.
However, I would agree that the organ is not as loud as it used to be. I heard it live in 1986 and had to leave the building, since I found the sound to be almost unbearably loud. I also heard it a couple of years ago at the August Bank Holiday recital (which was played superbly by Ian Tracey). Although I had been given a reserved seat in the front row, I was actually disappointed at the full organ sound - even with the new party horns and octave couplers, it was certainly not unbearably loud.
In the recent (excellent) Priory DVD from Liverpool, Ian Tracey talks about the "vulgar fractions" on the organ which I assume means the mutation stops. Am I right, and is this common parlance?
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Couldn't the agricultural story editor look into it at a time when he hasn't got many agricultural stories to edit? I'm sure he's a versatile chap.
B) 
Organ Music Of Lionel Rogg
in The Organ
Posted
I wish I could claim that there were a whole raft of gems worth looking at, but after listening to a disc he recorded in 2000 (all his own music) at St Peter's Cathedral, Geneva, I don't think this is the case! The pieces date from 1996 - 1999, and to be honest, the same motifs and ideas keep cropping up: sustained note or cluster, punctuated by an "impressionistic" splash of sound. I suppose the Hommage a Durufle is the best work of that type (Don't worry: he steers well clear of trying to ape MD's musical language) and the Livre d'orgue offers some textural variation, and the Toccata Capriciosa is pleasantly Ebenesque, but there is nothing to rival Nun freut euch.