innate
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Posts posted by innate
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Simply because you cannot hear specific sounds in your head when you compose is not a strong basis on which to surmise that also Bach either could not - or chose not to. Aside from the fact that your statement is virtually impossible to prove, I am not sure that it is accurate in the first place.
When I compose, I can hear specific sounds in my head - even those of a particular stop on a particular instrument. This comes, not from my imagination, but from the experience of playing (or hearing) the instrument, and subsequently recalling this memory. In a similar way, I am able to remember conversations, for example.
And even if we were to discount specific sounds that would still leave the sound world that Bach inhabited. It is on that basis that I view "original instrument" performances as more authentic than those using modern instruments, whilst accepting that a completely authentic performance is not only impossible but also not necessarily desirable.
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The RSCM publishes suggested fees but to members only.
My view is that the Competition Act goes nowhere near any of this, but attempts to engage meangingfully with the relevant Government Department have met with the bland response that only litigation could decide the issue.
Only the other day I received a questionnaire from the Musicians' Union asking for specific information relating to commissions for composing, arranging, and music copying. It is only after seeing the ISM survey relating to organist's salaries and fees that the MU thing makes sense. The MU are still promulgating rates for rehearsal and audition pianists which I find very useful as "markers" (currently £32 per hour).
Are all salary scales under threat from the new laws? I was reading about the C of E clergy scales recently. Presumably many professional bodies provide, at the least, some guidance relating to fees. The MU agreements with various organisations eg West End and provincial theatres always specify "these are MINIMUM rates" so don't preclude any musician being paid more, although in practice this is happening less and less; maybe the fact that these agreements are produced jointly by the producers' representatives and the Union make them legally different from a promulgated rate.
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Does anyone know if the authorities would be open to the idea of having this organ sampled for Hauptwerk, as an historical archive document?
Notwithstanding the wide selection of instruments already available, one outstanding omission so far is any example of a H&H or Willis cathedral-style organ.
I have been asked by one of the best sample-set producers (a university professor in Reutlingen) to identify one or more suitable organs, and he would be very happy to supply references from other church authorities with whom he has dealt.
Bearing in mind Ouseley's direct involvement with the instrument (I think it replaced the first instrument built for the church as he wasn't happy with it) I would agree that St Michael's would be a prime candidate for sampling.
My father was a chorister there, as was my organ teacher. There must be many interesting stories similar to my Dad's, eg singing madrigals after Founder's Day dinner from the original song books with an aged Dr Fellowes and a younger Watkins Shaw and daily sung matins with the Purcell Te Deum split over two consecutive mornings on account of its length. Sidney Nicholson was organist/choirmaster there for a time after the previous organist went to fight in WWII; my Dad said Nicholson had a terrible singing voice.
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So perhaps a chamade is the musical equivalent of the exclamation mark!
Maybe we should call them ex-chamades!
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But, Tony, I believe you too may be falling into the trap of describing "worship music" as contemporary. The outer reaches of Spring Harvest etc. may be, but most of what is sung in the CofE is excruciatingly dated. As has been observed in this thread, it has more in common with the Seekers than with anything that "young people today" (among whom I still count myself, just) are listening to.
I've never been particularly "hooked" on pop music; my childhood exposure was very limited, by my parents as much as anything else. I remember being excited by Life On Mars c.1974. My point is that what makes modern pop music sound the way it does is the way it is made with computers. It would be almost impossible to reproduce the sound of the current top 20 in a live situation with no pre-recorded backing tracks and with no state-of-the-art sound system (including reverb, delay lines, gates, compressors etc.). I'm sure this is attempted in the mega-churches and possibly the leading "Alpha-course" centres, and possibly successfully (on its own terms) too. But I can't imagine this kind of contemporary music being used in many parish churches. At least the Seekers style is fundamentally acoustic, and can be imitated or interpreted quite successfully with a small group of instrumentalists. What I don't understand about many of the songs in, for example, The Source is how the melodies can be learned and sung by a congregation; they seem to be designed for performance by a solo singer with swing- and pop-infections in the pitch and rhythm. Any guidance in this regard would be gratefully received.
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More thoughts along this line are welcome:
"Now junior choir, what are the spaces of the treble clef?" she asked. Tom put up his hand, "my dad is getting a boat for his birthday this year." "Very nice Tom, now what are the spaces of the treble clef?"
WM
What are the spaces in the treble clef, Westgate? Some of us here can barely read or write.
Seriously, what is there to add to your original question, after JPM's helpful and candid response? If you want to set up your own organ-related discussion board no one will stop you. Then you can censor replies to your heart's content. Human conversation drifts around and off topic and cyber discussions tend to be just the same. I suggest you choose whether to chill a little and not get too worried by the asides or stop visiting if it upsets you so much.
Cordially,
innate
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Yes, that's the lady.....quite a lady actually.....titled family I believe.
I met her once in the middle of a traffic jam on the A1.
She's as potty as a row of Chrysanths, but absolutely delightful nevertheless. Her series about undiscovered Britain has to be a landmark in eccentricty and style. I used to squeal with delight watching them!
In fact, her name is quite "on topic," because I recall one or more moments when she played the organ during those programmes......and this gives me an idea for another delightful topic.......organs in the strangest places!
MM
Linda Lusardi was a Page 3 topless model in the 1980s. You mean Lucinda Lambton, I think.
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My teacher once said that there are two types of metronome markings: Too fast, and Too slow.
I played through a fugue from the "48" this morning with the metronome at quite a fast speed. I forced myself to keep going and it wasn't half as bad as I expected. I think we are possibly more capable than we normally allow ourselves to be; all that unused grey matter etc.
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So, after all these arguments, it now transpires that both its designer and builder admit its not fit for its main liturgical purpose. Exactly what some of us (whatever its other merits) have been saying for years.
Not exactly; RD might have been saying no organ could perfectly fulfil its main liturgical purposes. Accompanying anglican chant is one thing, leading congregational hymn singing is another, and playing inspiring voluntaries appreciated by all is a third; I would say all three were significant when RD was working at Gloucester. The subsequent years might have extended the liturgical purposes of an English cathedral organ.
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This is squeezed rather ingeniously into a 'difficult' shaped chamber in a smallish church. The whole effect however is surprisingly good - not only for 'repertoire' but also for the High Anglican liturgical effects required here.
Is the Vox Humana really in its own swell box which is in another swell box within the main box of the swell division, therefore under three "leves" of expression? Like, wow!
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Bach's comments when specifying these stops were that the Quinta and Tertia together would form a fine Sesquialtera, so presumably they were not wide-scale pipes. However I seem to remember that Cornets are quite common in the French-inspired organs of the Silbermanns, Andreas especially. I haven't checked this though (so maybe I am just thinking of wide-scale mutations?)
But JSB must have had a reason for specifying 2 stops rather than a II Sesquialtera so presumably he anticipated using them in various combinations and, I imagine, for solo effects.
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Here is the Mülhausen specification after it had been ruibuilt to Bach's requirements (this is basically from Hurford's book except that I have followed Bach in calling the Hauptwerk "Oberwerk"). It should be remembered that Bach never got to enjoy the fruits of the rebuild for he moved to Weimar in mid 1708 (though he agreed to continue to supervise the work on the organ).
St Blasius, Mülhausen
(Wender, 1691; 1709 - additions of 1709 in italics)
Oberwerk
<snip>
Rückpositiv
<snip>
Brustwerk
Stillgedackt 8
Fleute Douce 4
Quinta 3
Octava 2
Tertia 13/5
Mixtur III
Schalemoy 8
Pedal
<snip>
This seems rather French to me. Is there another example of such a cornet on a "Bach" organ?
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There is however a 'reharmonised' version that gives four part harmony - I forget what book it is in, but it was rather good
Peter Warlock could have done a stunning harmonisation of Living Lord, or indeed anything! I only have to think of Yarmouth Fair or Bethlehem Down (the voice and organ version) to come over all unnecessary!
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The trouble with tasteless harmonisations is that congregations have no taste and are therefore likely to think your efforts marvellous - as MM found out.
If you really want to show up mawkish tunes such as this one, harmonise them as if they were traditional Victorian tunes, with strictly one chord per melody note. Avoid passing notes like the plague. A few verses of Lord Jesus Christ with the first four chords harmonised I I V I (and with a solid semibreve in all parts on the fourth) etc should be enough to set people thnking. They'll still blame the organist rather than the tune though.
You could produce a travesty of Tristan Und Isolde using the same technique. Or Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. Or the Britten Missa Brevis!
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If you type my name into Australian google, the two that interest me are the harmonica player and the convicted New Zealand sex offender. Other than that there is the guy who used to play Brownlow on "The Bill" who if memory serves could turn his hand to a mean Gilbert and Sullivan. Pretty paltry really.
Similar for me (without the Australian bit). A failed popstar managed by Epstein in the early 1960s and a psychiatrist convicted of sexually assaulting his patients over a period of many years in the North-East. Oh, and a professor of Classics at UCLA.
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I don't know if this should be here or in Nuts & Bolts but here goes:
Prompted by looking at Clifton Cathedral's spec:
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N01276
I wondered how useful you all might consider a third manual, both for liturgy/accompaniment and for recitals/voluntaries.
If we took the 26 stops and three manuals of Clifton as a starting point how would that compare in terms of flexibility and scope to, say, the 34 stops and 2 manuals of Hexham http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N04090 or the 24 stops (also 2 manuals) of the RAM van der Heuval http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=T00351?
Are coupling manuals (a third manual with no stops permanently coupled to both of the others) eg at Magdalen, Oxford http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N09181 useful for hymns and psalms but not much use in the solo repertoire?
This is definitely in the idle speculation of a Sunday evening category as far as I'm concerned but I'd love to hear what the team think.
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The stop (on a Pedal division at least) sounds a little like the collection of mutations added at the last rebuild at Gloucester Cathedral (or the Pedal Septerz at the RFH with the Quint added). PCND is familiar also I think with the similar bundle at Notre Dame in Paris - here also they draw individually - maybe he can add more.
Which eminent Parisian organist described the effect of the, I think, Septieme, on the the Pedal at Notre Dame as "like a muster of [orchestral] double basses"?
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For the record, a Franck organ without an Hautbois:
l'orgue de l'eglise de Saint-Jean-François du Marais (Cavaillé-Coll, 1843)
PÉDALE ORGUE (20 notes: C - g)
Flûte Ouverte 16
Bombarde 16
GRAND ORGUE (54 notes)
Montre 8
Bourdon 8
Salicional 8
Prestant 4
Nasard 2 2/3
Doublette 2
Plein jeu III
Trompette 8
Clairon 4
RÉCIT-EXPRESSIF (37 notes)
Voix Céleste 8
Flûte Harmonique 8
Flûte Octaviante 4
Octavin 2
Cromorne 8
Cor Anglais 8
Trompette 8
César Franck was Organiste Titulaire at this church from either the end of 1851 or the beginning of 1852, until shortly before the end of 1857.
The difference between a C-C Hautbois and a C-C Cor Anglais can't be that great, can it? Interesting spec. anyway: is the Voix Céleste two ranks or does is undulate with the Flûte?
6 reed stops out of 18; only 5 of the 11 manual flues are at 8'.
Apart from the short compass of the Récit I think I'd love this instrument.
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So is Col. Bogey 60 (a la Vox) or 120 (a la John Scott via MAB)?
Or have I stupidly misunderstood something?
J
60 is cut-common ¢ or 2/2; 120 is 4/4; they are the same tempo for Colonel Bogey.
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No one has yet mentioned the most overrated purveyor of formulaic, repetitive twaddle in the entire history of western art music...
ANTONIO VIVALDI
He really should have stuck to his day job. I have heard X Factor rejects who have displayed more talent.
I haven't been following this thread; am I allowed to say "I disagree most strongly!"?
If the only thing going for Vivaldi was the fact that JS Bach admired his work sufficiently to arrange 4 of his concertos for organ surely that would be sufficient for us to accord him some respect. Of course the Four Seasons are played too often, so they cease to have any surprise for us, but they are brilliantly inventive and combine beauty with harmonic and rhythmic ingenuity and provide a virtuosic challenge at the same time. I'm a big fan of his vocal and choral music too.
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I can't find the actual cost, but I'm sure I read somewhere that it was as much as a pipe organ would cost... This open letter to the organ community is interesting: http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/welcome/?article&id=891
This document contains information upon which doubt has been cast, particularly with regard to costs for new pipe organs or rebuilds and maintenance of the previous organ. My feeling is that Trinity Church, with almost unlimited budget, has done the pipe organ community a terrible disservice. There is also something I can't quite express in connection with the 9/11 attacks that makes me feel uncomfortable.
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Half that cost is £50,000 which is extremely excessive for even the very finest pipeless instrument. I have not been able to notice any improvement in quality with any increase in price and, generally, additional stops do not improve the tone on synthetic instruments.
I was under the impression that the state-of-the-art toaster in New York City's Trinity Church, Wall Street cost significantly more than £100K.
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Related to this topic - there is inevitably going to be a degree of "ego" in anyone who performs in public, because without self-confidence and a belief in your ability you will not give a persusasive performance. This week's issue of Private Eye carries a lengthy letter from the composer Keith Burstein (of whom I knew nothing until recently), a composer who is best described as a neo-tonalist, one who disapproves strongly of unremitting dissonace and who has, it seems, heckled performances of music by, inter ali, Harrison Birtwhistle. He also once described his own music as "ravishingly beautiful". He defends this by arguing that Beethoven, for example, didn't finish the Eroica and then say to himself "that's not all that impressive"; Burstein continues: "(T)here is of course an internal self-critical process, but that has to allow the composer to be moved and astonished by their own work. Why else write?". Could the same critical process be applied to the recitalist, I wonder?
New UK legislation is being introduced concerning claims made in advertising and other promotional material which will, apparently, go some way to ending theatrical producers' misuse of selective quotations from bad reviews. I wonder if the same legislation could cover misleading claims in programme biogs? CV "distortions" that remain private are, of course, a different matter.
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The thread about the Eule organ at Cleveland Lodge made me wonder about the Peter Collins organ at Addington Palace. I remember playing the Leighton Paean to Nicholas Cleobury on it when I was about 16 and the next few years of my life probably turned out the way they did as a result. NPOR merely states "tranferred elsewhere".
Any ideas?
Pedal Note Naming Convention - Gg, C, Aa Etc.
in General discussion
Posted
There are many different systems and they can be confusing. For a start there's confusion over whether a pitch or a key is intended. Often pedal notes are treated as though they are inherently an octave below the manuals so the lowest note is written CCC (compared to the lowest note of the manuals being CC); but perhaps the lowest note of the Pedal 8' Bass Flute is CC. I'm no expert but generally which note is meant can be deduced by context. Continental builders often use a system that goes c c' c'' c''' etc. North Americans, I think, have another.