innate
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Posts posted by innate
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You may like it, you may hate it, but no-one can deny that it has spurned a lot of small boys into the world of church music, whether they care to admit it, or not!
I had only heard its name, the oft-repeated joke, the "God SO loved the world" bit, and a former organ-student from St Paul's cathedral's Barry Rose-inspired fulsome recommendation, until I was about 30, and nothing prepared me for its comprehensive awfulness. It may well be that I would have been inspired by it as a chorister but I doubt it. On the other hand I found "I Saw The Lord" very satisfying when I was 12.
Michael
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On the subject of pitching hymns in gnereal, if you look at Bach's Chorales (Oxford? Edited by Terry?) you will notice that the soprano/treble line frequently hovers around the G/F mark, often starting at that register. I wonder if this is an indication that in Bach's time the human voice was naturally higher and has lowered in pitch over the years and that composers write to accomodate this?
There's a fine can of worms you've opened, Peter
going into random thought mode
I remember getting interested in the great Tudor pitch wars of the 1970-80s between Wulstan and Parrott and finding a quote in Le Huray's book saying that the most common adult male voice was the tenor. This seemed to me to prove the case for the lower pitch of Parrott. Anyway, without some wide-ranging research on the natural pitch of the human voice (which would probably need to involve diet, dress, culture), we can only guess how congregations have coped with high notes in the past. Like an earlier poster I have strong memories of a male congregant who sang everything an octave lower, most noticeably and to rather profound effect in the unaccompanied creed. It has just struck me that we find no problem with men always singing one octave lower than the real pitch of a hymn tune despite what it does to the harmony. And I read recently of a London performance of a Bach passion when the audience were more than encouraged to join in all the chorales at whatever pitch was comfortable, this being what the conductor believed was standard practice in the Lutheran church of Bach's time.
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I was surprised to discover on a quick inspection that the New English Hymnal generally seems to pitch tunes higher than in the English Hymnal. Although I suspect that RVW was less concerned with the aesthetics of robed choirs singing hymns than the editors of the NEH.
My personal experience is that most untrained members of congregations have great difficulty getting above a D, particularly at 9:30 on a Sunday morning and many, including a significant number of clergy would prefer tunes not to go above C. I don't think I've ever come across anyone who couldn't sing down to B flat so I usually try to set things in the ninth between C and D, sometimes going lower if the range requires. What is strange is that the most popular hymn in my congregations is I Cannot Tell, with its range of a twelfth.
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Ok, in my world, the $$$ are higher, hence my company will pay for me to stay in a hotel in Sweden - they're still charging a lot of money for my services, so there's room for manoeuvre. The organ world is not like that. But... tuners don't *have* to travel a great distance, really, assuming that the bigger firms have regional reps, and the smaller firms stay "in area" - if the cost of getting the tuner to site is too high, then reflect that in the quote.
I understand where you're coming from, Frank, but I really don't see that this area is problematic at all - it's a practice that's stuck in Victorian times.
Turn away your anger, ajt
I can't see anything wrong with the status quo. Tuners (of organs and pianos) do a tough job pretty well, on the whole, and if you don't like their work or their rates you can go elsewhere. If, through lack of work, all the local tuners in your area give up, then you will be either tunerless, or you'll have to pay someone much more to come from further away. By the way, as a professional musician based in London, I will expect to be paid travel expenses and an element to cover travel time if I am booked to do a concert out-of-town, otherwise I'll be better off doing less work in London; if they don't want to pay those expenses they can get someone local.
I've heard it said that if all organs were cone-tuned with mechanical action, kept out of direct heat and light and in fairly stable temperature and humidity, organists would be able to do most of the minimal maintenance (ie tuning the reeds) themselves. Is it true that this happens quite often on the continent?
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As I had a spare 20 minutes this morning I thought up this:
GREAT
1 Bourdon 16
2 Open Diapason 8
3 Gamba 8
4 Harmonic Flute 8
5 Stopped Diapason 8
6 Principal 4
7 Clear Flute 4
8 Twelfth 2 2/3
9 Fifteenth 2
10 Fourniture V 1 1/3
11 Trumpet (en chamade) 8
Sw/Gt
Ch/Gt
SWELL (enclosed)
12 Salicional 8
13 Gedackt 8
14 Voix Celeste TC 8
15 Gemshorn 4
16 Fifteenth 2
17 Mixture IV 1
18 Fagotto 16
19 Trumpet 8
20 Oboe 8
21 Clarion 4
Tremulant
CHOIR (unenclosed)
22 Open Diapason 8
23 Chimney Flute 8
24 Principal 4
25 Recorder 4
26 Nazard 2 2/3
27 Flute 2
28 Tierce 1 3/5
29 Mixture III 2
30 Cymbal II 1/2
31 Cromorne 16
Sw/Ch
Tremulant
PEDAL
32 Open Wood 16
33 Subbass 16
34 Quint 10 2/3
35 Octave 8
36 Flute 8
37 Flute 4
38 Fourniture 2 2/3
39 Trombone 16
40 Cornet (reed) 4
Sw/Ped
Gt/Ped
Ch/Ped
Manuals: 61 notes; Pedal: 32 notes
Mechanical action
I really wanted a proper Cornet V on the great; maybe ditch the 2 2/3, make the Fourniture 2 2/3 instead and there's room. A chorus reed on the choir would be good too, maybe instead of the Cymbal.
I know the Cromorne shouldn't be in the same division as the Cornet séparé but tough!
I very much like the possibilities of the C-C jeux de fonds on the Great. IMO this more than compensates for the lack of an OD on the swell and a Dulciana on the choir.
Maybe the Choir should be enclosed, perhaps in an Oberwerk position.
It would be clever if the great reed could be duplexed on the choir but I know there are technical issues with duplexing reeds with tracker action.
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In the past a lot of (and occasionally irreparable) harm has been done to childrens' voices by non-singers attempting 'choir training'. If a new generation of choir trainers avoid nodules on the vocal folds, then it will be worth it. Significant ability as an organist, at an advanced level, does not qualify anyone for choir training.
A DOM job without any responsibility for playing the organ might attract a slew of talented choral directors with a cathedral music background.
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If those clergy and some laity currently running churches would read the message of Jesus, rather than the message of the liturgical/worship fashion of their church, things would revert to the Church of England, where all were welcome, whatever the stage of their spiritual journey.
I think as long as the C of E is the established church with the Monarch its Supreme Governor, the Church of England is exactly that. Any resident of England is entitled to as much membership as they wish whatever their faith or committment. The idea that Church of England schools may select pupils on the basis of their parents' ecclesiastical affiliation is anathema to me.
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I'd be pleased to come, pending availability, on a Saturday in either Sept or October.
When I was an undergraduate I arranged a trip for my old Organists Assoc. on a Saturday during term time which included visits to Christ Church, Queens and a couple of other colleges that seemed to work out ok.
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Yes, I believe I have witnessed women giving birth who have shown less emotion/angst. Totally OTT, surely?
I agree, a quite amazing performance but almost impossible to watch IMHO
It's a cultural thing. Read accounts of the performance style of eg Paganini, Rameau, Beethoven and this Russian guy will seem Stoic in comparison.
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I don't see the problem with this. Most television shows are recording in advance of transmission. Has Christianity become so banal and pointless to be so worried about when a religious programme is being recorded? Hello???
The truth of Christianity is, of course, timeless and ineffable. But a Christian service should also be relevant. The longer the gap between recording and broadcast the greater the chance of the programme becoming irrelevant. Imagine an Easter Songs of Praise making no reference to, for example, a recent major tragedy on the scale of 9/11. I suppose the beancounters at the BBC have appropriate actuarial tables and it's probably cheaper in the long run to bin the occasional irrelevant pre-record and record a new one where necessary.
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I think that's by far the healthiest way of looking at it.
Would it be possible for the Cathedrals and other choral foundations to fill their choirs entirely with children who had never been in a parish church choir? It's a bit like expecting to appoint bishops without reducing the number of good parish priests. :angry:
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In the (very welcome!) Widor link posted by John Sayer, I had a shop around this website and camew accross this piece, possibly by Bach, possibly not. It is the first time I have seen it; has anybody get any more information on it?
Thanks for reminding me of this piece and how to get it, Peter. I use to play it years ago but lost the Peters volume. Worked well as a relatively subdued voluntary this morning.
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Today marks the 50th anniversary of my father, Peter Haslam, becoming organist at St Francis, Mackworth, Derby and he's still there. This morning he was presented with a cake and a cheque and he has not announced his retirement. What a life of service!
Any other candidates for long-service medals out there?
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Ours is cheaper - around £200.00 for a full day's tuning.
£50 for a piano tuning seems about standard in London, and it can take less than an hour. OK, there's travel between each tuning but they probably expect to do more than 4 per day. £200-300 for a day of organ-tuning seems about right to me.
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Where I play there is a Ped on Great Combs and a Great on Ped Combs, neither of which is affected by the General Cancel. AFAIK they cannot be programmed into General or Divisional pistons.
Michael
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The Victorians in general had a bit of a thing about naked pipe-tops ...
... and naked piano legs ...
I've been told that the naked piano legs thing is a myth. Yes, the Victorians made covers for piano legs but they were to protect the beautiful wood from accidental knocks, not the moral rectitude of the observer. I have done no research on this and no less a mind than Tom Stoppard's has repeated the myth, but myth I believe it to be.
Michael
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Do the stops move from lowest (at the key cheek) to the highest as you move out along the arc. A builder, who shall remain nameless at the moment, says he builds them going the other way AS WELL AS outlined above. He builds both! ….highest pitches closest to the key cheek.
Going forwards, going backwards,
The only en terrace console I've played was the (then unfinished) Copley at St Aloysius in Oxford.
http://www.matthew-copley.co.uk/portfolio6.htm
ISTR that the stops ascended from L to R in normal spec order so that higher-pitched flues and all the reeds were on the right of the manuals and lower-pitched flues on the left, perhaps with the relevant couplers immediately to the left of the manuals and the tremulants on the extreme right. Even if my memory is wrong this is the way I would like them to be!
Michael
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I have already told my wife that I'm going out to 'Transports de joie'. I wanted it played at our wedding, but she vetoed it on the grounds that it might frighten the maiden aunts.
As we're in the realm of the personal I too would have had Transports or the Duruflé Toccata if there'd been an organ where we got married, as it was we had Purcell My Beloved Spake, Gershwin Our Love Is Here To Stay, Bloch’s Nigun and we exited to Walton’s Popular Song. I've played Transports after a wedding - tremendously appropriate, I think.
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It is interesting to know what other people do musically (and otherwise) in a little more detail, if they are prepared to share it.
Sunday morning: Every week 9:30 Family service (organ/piano, cantor); 11:00 "off-site" Family service (piano, occasional trumpet, clar/sax, guitar, cello)
The rest of the time: Chiefly music for theatre (West End, National Theatre etc.). Various bits of classical keyboard work, sessions, cabaret gigs, continuo.
Weddings and funerals when asked.
Michael
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Question is: what was Jesus doing punning in Latin?
One can only hope that the pun works in Aramaic or NT Greek too! James Joyce described the Roman Catholic church as "founded on a pun".
Actually, I just remembered that Peter in Greek is Boutros, as in the former Secretary General of the UN (who wasn't actually greek but that's neither here nor there). And I think that's the Greek word for rock, as well.
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I certainly would never ever contemplate putting pauses on the second syllable of a word as per the suggestions. I don't favour overly fast choppy hymns, but as good as the harmonies are in that book I do find many of the suggested tempi far too slow even for my tastes. However, tastes change I suppose and we might now think differently than they did back then.
The implication is that the pauses were part of JB Dykes composition. I have certainly seen them in other old hymnals.
What I find interesting is that you seem to think that chorally we are off to hell in a handcart and that there was a golden age perhaps 50 years ago before everything got infected with continental tendencies, but the pauses and the tempi of the 100-year old English Hymnal are something you couldn't countenance.
Michael
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One, do it as an “anthem” the previous week.
Two, have a small “teach in” before the service proper starts.
These are both useful, although the first is difficult without a choir
. I will generally improvise liberally on a new tune before the service, which seems to have a beneficial effect. I find it much easier to drag a congregation through an unfamiliar tune if I accompany on the (in my case very fine) piano than on the (also good) organ.Michael
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If you sing "holy" as it's said the mouth goes to the side, (or at least in my case it does). Natural speech of the word (in my case again), does indeed come out as "Ho-LEE" however much I try not to pronounce it in that way. Do we actually speak this word "holy" exactly as it is written anyway, is it even possible? Wouldn't it sound more regional Birmingham if we did, hence the need to change it. The closest I can get to pronouncing it exactly as writ is "Ho-lyy Don't think it sounds good to be honest. I couldn't agree more about the diaphragm support and relaxed jaw. It's pretty essential really. Add to it a good head tone and you're pretty much there.
Does it change anything to point out that Nicaea, as printed in the English Hymnal (1906) has a pause (fermata) on the second and fourth notes? There is a NOTE printed below the tune: This hymn is marked to be sung at a much slower rate than usual [minim=42], it may, if preferred, be sung at the more usual rate of minim=63 and the pauses may be omitted.
Michael
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I get the impression from reading many messages here that the choice of hymns and maybe settings is down to the priest/minister/vicar or whoever is leading the worship. In my own case I have so far successfully resisted this on the grounds that the organist is most likely to know what works and what doesn't for any given liturgy and any organist worth her or his salt wil be almost intimately familiar with the demands of the liturgy in general. I've never attempted to tell a preacher what to preach about (though reckon I could make a better job of it than some I've heard!), so I would not welcome a preacher/minister laying down the musical content of a service. I'm all for discussion and collaboration of course but to each her or his own area of expertise.
I have meetings every couple of months with a member of the clergy where we consolidate our choices of hymns for the next two months. It makes a significant difference to my involvement in a service if I have participated in its planning. Of course clergy have much to offer even if their musical knowledge is limited; they can often give a "bloke in the pew" point of view.
Michael
. I will generally improvise liberally on a new tune before the service, which seems to have a beneficial effect. I find it much easier to drag a congregation through an unfamiliar tune if I accompany on the (in my case very fine) piano than on the (also good) organ.
Guiting Power
in The Organ
Posted
What it says, really. I think this is a good tune to sing and it fits the "Christ Triumphant" words very well, although there's something slightly odd about the short phrases in the refrain and that the refrain isn't really "marked off" from the verse. But why is it so unrewarding to play on the organ? As I'm following it with BWV 565 on Sunday I'm playing it in D, which seems easier, but I'm still left with that strange figure at the end of the first line - should that be played on the swell? - and the wide-ranging pedal part. I'm using the version in Common Praise. I'd be interested in any comments, particularly ones that disagree with me!
Michael