John Sayer
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Posts posted by John Sayer
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Isn't the thing about the German Romantic organ - the late ones anyway - that the colours are made as smooth as possible in order to facilitate blend and isn't this why they are comparatively monochrome compared to French and English instruments of the time?
This seems to me a fair comment. Take the 1905 IVP Sauer monster in the Berliner Dom, for example. Out of 113 stops, no less than 50 are at 8ft pitch, and, to my ears at least there isn't a great deal of difference between many of them, the flutes in particular, fancy stop names notwithstanding. Contemporary registrational practice required them to be used 'by the handful', though there are, of course, some very beautiful solo voices. The reeds are reticent, with none of the éclat of their French counterparts, despite Sauer's known admiration for Cavaillé-Coll. Apart from the 16-8-4 Trompeten on Manual I, they make little impact in the tutti.
The ensemble is warm and all-embracing, but with only limited tonal contrast between the manuals, the difference being mainly in dynamic level - i.e. Manual III is a louder version of Manual IV, Manual II is a louder version of Manual II and so on. Operating the Walze gives a pretty clear indication of how the build-up from ppp to fff was meant to happen.
Monochrome is perhaps a bit unfair. Eine Geschmacksache - a matter of taste, as the Germans would say. A 20 minute Reger blockbuster may be magnificent, but a Widor or Vierne symphony would soon pall. I'm not sure about a big Bach P&F either.
I can't help feeling the late German Romantic organ was a dead-end in the same way as the early 20c. über-romantic English organ (take Arthur Harrison's Caird Hall, Tamworth PC, Crediton PC or St Wilfrid's, Harrogate, for example). Let's treasure the surviving examples, by all means, but I don't think anyone would particularly wish to see their likes again.
JS
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I hear that M. Aubertin will be attending the Open Day in Oxford next Saturday. A number of people have inquired about whether he would. Now you know!
All best wishes,
Nigel
Best wishes for an enjoyable and enlightening Open Day on Saturday.
I had the privilege and pleasure of an advance visit last week and was mightily impressed by an instrument of great character and integrity - and different in many ways from its confrères in othe college chapels.
This is surely how it should be in a seat of learning, whose raison d'être is to stimulate and broaden the mind. For young organists (and other musicians, too) this means close encounters with as many different styles of instrument as possible.
The smaller Oxbridge chapels are uniquely placed to promote this ideal, being largely freed from traditional liturgical constraints, as a glance at the chapel service list will show. So perhaps we need to leave behind pre-set Anglican notions of the organ's role and celebrate the new arrival for what it is, a superb musical instrument.
JS
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Have to confess, that despite having read the letter in the Times, I failed to spot the manual/white collar pun. I'm fairly impressed that the Times letters editor did so, although I guess the white collar bit isn't too obscure.
Maybe he had a little help from Richard Morrison...
JS
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see today's times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle3399568.ece
and comment
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle3399569.ece
It's good to see Times readers are able to see the lighter side of all this, witness two letters in last Saturday's edition.
The first asks if disputes between organists and vicars are not a "classic example of the age-old struggle between manual workers and white-collar workers."
The second tells of the organist who successfully appealed against arbitrary dismissal by his vicar and 'celebrated his victory by offering on the following Sunday a triumphant voluntary based upon Handel's Fixed in His Everlasting Seat'. The picture of the hapless cleric processing out to the accompaniment of such a resounding 'musical two-fingers' raises a welcome chuckle with many, I'm sure.
JS
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There's a good Briekopf little book of pieces for pedals, one of which is a duet version of the blue danube. You have to know your duet partner very well, or at least, not mind getting to know them....
I've been trying for years to track down the Blue Danube arrangement. It doesn't seem to be listed in the Breitkopf catalogue. Do you have further details (ISBN etc) by any chance?
Thanks in advance
JS
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I wonder how that sleek modern Porsche console will look in 30 years time?
A bit kitsch and rather tired?
I'm told that lady recitalists at the Nikolaikirche are requested not to use hand cream so as not to sully the beautiful brushed aluminium stop jambs!
Seriously though, the Porsche/Eule 'no-expense-spared' collaboration has produced a truly magnificent instrument. I can't imagine many British firms funding an organ of 5 manuals and 100+ stops complete with new 32-foot tin front etc etc.
Porsche established a factory near Leipzig shortly after reunification. I understand that one of its directors, a former West German Foreign Minister, was influential in bringing this project to fruition. However, political considerations shouldn't detract from the enlightened munificence of the Porsche firm.
JS
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Actually, according to Peter Williams' book, Erbarm dich mein was a chorale for the 3rd, 11th, 14th, and 22nd Sundays after Trinity, not Lent (although we, of course, associate Ps 51 with Lent and BWV 721 is very suitable for it).
Aus tiefer Not was apparently a burial and communion hymn, but was also associated with Palm Sunday, Trinity 21 and Trinity 22).
There seem to be no cantatas for Lent except Lent 3. I am beginning to think that there was no organ music between Ash Wednesday and Palm Sunday in the Lutheran church at the time. I was hoping someone would confirm or deny this but I know this thread is an old one (it took me a long time to get validated so that I could post!) and really on the wrong forum.
Stephen Barber
I suspect practice varied from place to place, as each town or city would have had its own 'Kirchenordnung'. Present-day Lutheran hymnbooks, incidentally, have no section specifically for Lent, ie there is nothing between 'Epiphanias' and 'Passion'. And the chorales in the latter section are very much in Passiontide vein, beginning with 'O Mensch bewein' followed by 'O Lamm Gottes' etc.
JS
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I was just mentally running through the Reubke as it might sound at Armley, and THAT sonata would work very well, I suspect; thus adding weight to Pierre's observation about the stylistic link between Schulze and the organs built by Reubke.
MM
For around £15 you can hear excatly what the Reubke Sonata sounds like at Armley. You need to get hold of 'Organ Story', a new DVD produced by Leeds University Media Services, in which Graham Barber talks about the history of the organ and its restoration - with contributions from Mark Venning, Nick Kynaston & Dame Gillian - before giving a marvellously controlled and musical performance of the Sonata.
The camerawork is excellent and the sound quality first rate. GB follows Reger's registrations pretty well to the letter - so, when he asks for 'Harmonika allein', 'Trompete 8' or 'Salicional und Gedackt 16, 8' - that's what you get.
You should be able to get a copy direct from the church [ www.armley-schulze.freeserve.co.uk]
JS
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Those whole follow the organ building scene outside these shores may have noticed the newly-discovered enthusiasm of Continental, in particular German builders, for high-romantic English tonalities, witness the profusion of orchestral and high-pressure reeds included in new instruments or added to existing ones, e.g. the Tuba episcopalis and Tuba capitularis by Klais at the west end of Cologne Cathedral.
The same is true of concert hall organs. Our sister Orgelforum in Germany has news of a new instrument to be commissioned for the rebuilt Mercatorhalle in Duisburg at a cost of 1.5m Euro, the cost being met by the Alfred Krupp von Bohlen and Halbach Foundation.
In giving approval for the project, the Duisburg Town Council outlined various requirements in a document* running to no less than 8 pages, much of which makes interesting reading.
"The specification should be versatile, but with an emphasis on the 19/20 symphonic repertoire and with a leaning towards English organbuilding of the period. Generously wide scalings, a strongly developed fundamental tonal palette and colourful reeds are to be aimed for....... Typically English registers are to be incorporated in the specification".
"Consideration should be given to an instrument of British character (britisher Prägung) with an intelligent, colourful basic specification and a high-pressure division as powerful counterpoise to its symphonic partner".
It is also suggested Duisburg should pay a 'tonal greeting' to its sister town, Portsmouth, in the form of 'eine britische Tuba mirabilis'.
It's good to see the gospel being spread in this way, I suppose, though it's difficult to imagine such culturally enlightened attitudes on the part of English town councils.
JS
*German speakers may like to refer to the full text at :-
http://www.duisburg.de/ratsinformationssys...select=20042887 (Beschlussvorlage)
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I'm dep'ing for a number of services during lent and would appreciate some advice on appropriate voluntaries.
Am I correct in assuming that it would be appropriate to "tone down" the voluntaries throughout lent? Or is this a progressive from Ash Wednesday onwards, culminating in more sombre and contemplative pieces for Holy Week?
Thanks in advance.
Or even have no organ music at all, apart from hymn accompaniments, if not throughout Lent, then certainly during Passiontide.
English congregations (C of E at least) seem to have lost the habit of sitting in silence before divine service, witness the mindless social chit-chat that ruins most of our efforts to set a suitably devotional mood through careful choice of voluntaries each week. Perhaps Lent should be an opportunity for incumbents to introduce the notion of 'Speak to God before the service and to each other afterwards'.
To file out in silence for 5 or 6 Sundays a year would be a salutory reminder of what this penetential season is all about. The triumph of Easter then becomes all the more powerful with the joyful return of music.
JS
(I think I'd better run for cover now ......)
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I have played this instrument quite a number of times - particularly for the Milton Abbey Festival. About two and a half years ago, I accompanied a performance of The Passion According to Saint John (JSB) on this organ. It is a lovely Victorian instrument with, as Cynic states, an 'invisible' 32ft. reed. This is invisible in two senses. Firstly, the pipes (which are extended from the Fagotto, supplied by Bishop & Son in 1978) are buried in the south side of the stone pulpitum. Secondly, the draw-stop insert is blank - and the stop is kept isolated with an ignition-style lock. In the past, I have had to telephone the organist and inform him that it will be me playing - and ask him to unlock the stop. It (the reed) is an interesting sound. However, in the sensitive acoustic of the abbey (quite the best in Dorset) it sounds reasonably well. One also has to remember not to pull out the Pedal 'Grand Open Diapason xvi' draw-stop too far - or the rank will not sound.
I believe it was the organist, Trevor Doar himself, who donated the invisible and anonymous 32 reed. "I'll call it what I like", he once remarked, "even 'Double Doars', if I feel like it".
It's a very fine instrument which sounds magnificent in the Abbey acoustic, quite belying its modest size. What a pity the money is not forthcoming to complete the casework.
JS
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[quote
Something I have wondered, maybe it's the height of bad taste, but are there any organ transcriptions of piano concertos, with the piano part retained? Petit Mess Sodinghel excepted, there's not much music written for piano and organ, but I sometimes wonder how one of the great piano concertos would sound with a pianist playing the piano part and an organist filling in for the orchestra. Has this ever been done?
I remember something of this ilk back in the Seventies at York Minster when Francis Jackson played the slow movement of the Ravel piano concerto before Evensong with Geoffrey Coffin providing the orchestral accompaniment on the organ. Members of the chapter took their places beforehand wearing cassocks and at the end processed out to return fully robed for Evensong proper. FJ has always been a Ravel specialist and it was a memorable occasion.
JS
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I have a vague memory that this organ was up high on the North side of the choir in this remarkable church (St Mary, Clumber Park) but I was only about 12 when our church choir paid a visit.
A bit vertiginous, I agree, but strangely disappointing despite its pedigree, probably as a result of much of the pipework being buried in the chamber. The sandstone must soak up much of the sound as well. The building itself (by Bodley) is quite stunning.
JS
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Indeed they do - for those of you who have never seen this: there is a lever by the side of the console hidden within the Victorian case on the screen at Ripon not unlike a hand-blowing lever. It moves a larger-than full-size carved wooden hand that can be seen projecting from the organ near the middle of the underneath of the case. I heard a tale of how one day (fairly recently) some wag (N.B. not either 'wife or girlfriend' in this case) had stuck a bright yellow Marigold glove upon it, but the Dean was not amused. I think this proves my point, the hand was surely for conducting the few unaccompanied things like responses!
I believe Ron Perrin used it once, but the boys got the giggles. It would have been a different matter, however, in the 17th century, when the organist sat facing west in the little oriel gallery from which the hand projects. In those days it was operated by a foot pedal and the organist, of course, sitting with his back to the choir, had nothing better to do with his feet while playing.
JS
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Moving further afield, the Kern organ at Toulouse Cathedral is pretty terrifying, requiring a trek along an open triforium and then a narrow traverse over a flimsily railed wooden bridge to reach a very cramped loft about 60 feet above the floor.
Do you mean http://cathedrale.toulouse.free.fr/edifice/Orgues.html perchance?
Gulp....
Oliver.
Yes, thanks for the reminder in the picture! The walkway along the top of the arches between the pillars is bad enough, but I seem to remember the little wooden bridge that makes the final link to the loft was even worse. Once there, however, with the Positif behind you and a high, solid balustrade on either side, you feel a lot more secure - until, that is, you have to make your way back again.
JS
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Try St Mary's Nottingham if you want the opportunity to cause yourself serious head injuries on the steel girder as you climb up to the Marcussen. I did on several occasions.
I agree, it's a killer. I ended up with concussion and blood everywhere on a visit a decade or more ago. As I recall, the girder comes at the end of a short flight of steps, and somehow you just don't see it coming. This is one case where H&S considerations really do matter.
Moving further afield, the Kern organ at Toulouse Cathedral is pretty terrifying, requiring a trek along an open triforium and then a narrow traverse over a flimsily railed wooden bridge to reach a very cramped loft about 60 feet above the floor.
The Grenzing organ at Brussels Cathedral is suspended from the north triforium of the nave. After a tortuous route across the roof and through the triforium gallery you seem to launch out into the void as you step down into the swallow's nest about 6 feet lower down. Almost as disorienting is the sound of the Récit and Positif coming from beneath one's feet.
The loft of the Klais at Trier is also pretty vertiginous, but at least you get there by lift!
JS
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So let's be clear about this......London now has the smallest organ of any dedicated concert hall, in any capital city in the whole of Europe?
Mmmmmm!
How much are the Olympics costing?
MM
A truly pathetic state of affairs. One is bound to ask what the cost of another 4 years' storage in Durham is likely to be - I bet £100k is not too wide of the mark.
The South Bank authorities should be ashamed of themselves. They were quite happy to let their insurers pay for an expensive refurbishment of the console after recent water damage, but seem to have set their minds against reinstatement of the remainder of the organ.
However, rumour has it that a forthcoming change of management at the RFH may bring about a more enlightened change of attitude.
Nevertheless, one factor that does not help the case is the way visiting foreign orchestras routinely bring an electronium with them when programming works requiring an organ, in order to play at their customary higher pitch, typically around A443. Recent Prom appearances by the Vienna Philharmonic and Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestras are a case in point - with the mighty RAH Willis/Harrison giving way to a puny toaster in big works by Bartok, Richard Strauss and others.
Maybe British orchestras should start tuning up another 3 Hz.
JS
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Sad, I know, but... I would like to find recordings of ............ Wood in F (Collegium Regale).
Martin.
There is a CD of Stanford & Wood canticles & anthems by the Magdalen Choir under Bernard Rose, first issued on vinyl in 1964, which includes the Wood Coll Reg (OxRecs OXCD-5368).
There is also a contemporary CD transfer of English Polyphonic Church Music (Byrd, Sheppard, Gibbons, Tomkins, Dering etc) which must be one of the finest recordings of its kind ever made, with some quite unbelievably beautiful singing. Bernard Rose was a Tomkins specialist - his Almighty God, the fountain of all wisdom reduces me to tears - a perfect Desert Island Disc in every way. (OxRecs OXCD-5287).
You should be able to get them from Blackwells, or else direct from OxRecs direct at Magdalen Farm Cottage, Witney OX6 7RN.
JS
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I have just added a few photos of the last minute adornings of the organ in readiness of the unveiling to the world on 9th December 2007.
What exciting times .....................
No more pictures until I return next week. There will also be a video!
All best wishes,
Nigel
With such perfection in the finishing in the workshop, it's hardly surprising M Aubertin will be able to have the organ fully installed in a matter of days in January.
JS
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I know this thread implies a bit of the imagination to run free...
However, my dream church organ has already come into fruition...
The old Norman & Beard from St. Saviour's, Walton Place, Knightsbridge
now standing resplendent in St Patrick's RC Cathedral, Parramatta (Western Sydney).
St Patrick's Cathedral, Parramatta - Organ
I agree that an open or stopped 32' should be a high priority, but the Quint on this organ is very fine. On a recent recording of the Howells St Paul's Service, Bottom C with 12' Quint and Trombone makes a remarkably convincing 32' reed. ("...aaand to be the glor-Wham!)
But I suppose my absolute dream organ would be this instrument plus a full-length Double Open Wood and a Choir Unda Maris.
...
...or Truro
I had the pleasure of hearing and playing the 'transported' organ last year in the company of Peter Jukes who installed it in its new home. I suspect it sounds even better in the generous acoustic of the new cathedral than it did in Knightsbridge - a magnificently opulent romantic sound.
JS
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When I lived in London, I would sometimes have to go to an office not far from Buckingham Palace, and en route, I would pass what I believe is the Jamaican Embassy. Peering through the windows and being nosey, as one tends to do when not better employed, I noticed that there was a pipe-organ inside.
MM
No 1 Prince Consort Road, now the Jamaican High Commission, was built in 1877 and was originally the home of Col. W T Makins MP, chairman of the Cadogan and Hans Place estate in Chelsea, which probably accounts for the 'Pont Street Dutch' style of the building.
The little organ in the entrance hall is thought to have been originally by Cavaillé-Coll's foreman, August Gern, who set up business in London after erecting one of his master's instruments in the nearby Carmelite Church.
The organ was badly neglected and vandalised over the years and all that remains of Gern's work is the case and tin front pipes. It was a condition of the High Commisison's lease that the organ should be made playable again and Peter Conacher & Co installed a small IIP/12 second-hand Willis organ of 3 straight ranks (Salicional 8, Gemshorn 4 and Principal 2) plus extended Gedackt, all on direct electric action.
About 15 years ago I had the unusual experience of playing the organ for Jamaican Independence Day - a very jolly occasion, with steel bands and rum cocktails flowing freely - and a very soulful singing of the Jamaican national anthem which completely overwhelmed the organ accompaniment.
JS
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Hi guys,
Me and a friend of mine are looking towards putting together a program of 'organ and trumpet' music with a view to touring it around East Anglia in 2008.
db
You may know that David Dunnett (Norwich Cathedral) gives regular duo recitals with an Australian trumpeter colleague - and very entertaining they are, too.
JS
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I have to say I don't understand the point to describe specifications as "useless" or "ridiculous" ...
Here are a few links to specifications of organs looking strange on the paper, but these organs are utterly beautyfull.
If some specifications may be "cul-de-sac" it would be the Danion-Gonzalès like style, where there is no real research about the possibilities, but just pilling up series of standard stops up to the number required.. and with absolutely no musical inspiration (see Bordeaux cathedral specification for such an instument...).
So, provided the organ builder has his idea in mind, and upon everything is good enough at voicing, there may not be many "wastefull" specifications.
"Wastefull" specifications have too often been good reasons to knock down the work of others to place one's own work.
So, here are exemples, and I can only invite you to have a glance to the two specifications I inserted in another topic (Temple du Salin in Toulouse and Urrugne parish church)...
http://www.toulouse-les-orgues.org/web/5-p...imoineFiche=143
http://www.toulouse-les-orgues.org/web/5-p...imoineFiche=108
http://www.orgues-bancells.com/show?ar_id=67
http://www.toulouse-les-orgues.org/web/5-p...imoineFiche=102
Some are more neo-classic than post-romantic, but in a way very different from the main french neo-classic style. Some are none of the two.
But all are very good instruments where a lot of nice music can be played.
Toulouse must surely have the most comprehensive collection of instruments, old and new, of any city in Europe.
As an example of the imaginative, innovative reinterpretation of the post-romantic aesthetic, the organ by Jean Daldosso in the Temple du Salin must surely repay close examination.
The design has many ingenious features - pedal organ almost entirely derived from downward extension of manuals to 73 notes, floating divisions on mechanical action and a remarkable mixture scheme. And much more besides.
JS
Just in case the link doesn't work! - http://dermogloste.viabloga.com/news/l-org...in-a-toulouse-4
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This "outstanding design" is, in my view, extremely wasteful and very musically restricted.
It may achieve some sort of seamless crescendo, but that can be done with a half-decent swell box in any case.
What exactly is the musical point of this instrument?
Does it have anything to say that we don't already know and haven't tried previously?
MM
I imagine it gives a pretty authentic account of Reger's music.
It might be of interest to see a modern reinterpretation of this sort of instrument -a 'post-post-Romantic' organ, if you like - in the recent new organ for Max Reger's own church in Weiden.
See Max-Reger-Orgel and click on 'Disposition' at the bottom
There are two enclosed divisions, the Schwellwerk being placed right at the back to give the remote effect of the 19c 'Drittes Manual'. The shutters may alternatively be operated by hand levers, presumably by the registrant. There is, of course, a (programmable) Walze and the stoplist is intended to give an imperceptibly gradual crescendo at 8ft pitch (ein unvermerkliches graduelles Crescendo im 8'-Bereich).
The suspended mechanical action is designed to simulate the touch of mechanical cone-chests. Other modern gadgetry includes adjustable wind throttles for controlling the wind supply to individual divisions for use 'in playing modern compositions' (this used to be a bit of a fad among present-day German builders, as I recall).
Reger's tonal palette has been carefully supplemented to increase the versatility of the instrument.
JS
Warning! Red Flag
in General discussion
Posted
Indeed, but I don't think one can bracket the two together in terms of sound. I confess I haven't heard Fulda live, but this is surely very much a Riegerised Sauer with two-thirds of the pipework new in 1994. The Rübsam CDs went a long way to winning me over to Rheinberger, though it's a pity the poor chap never quite managed to write a Sonata with all 3 (or 4) movements of the same level of inspiration. Of all composers, his music needs enlivening with a bit of fire and passion - Rheinberger with balls, if you'll pardon the expression - and Rübsam seems to achieve this most of the time.
As for the rebuilt organ, it's about the only German instrument I've heard with a convincing full swell - almost 'auf englischer Art und Weise'.
JS