John Sayer
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Posts posted by John Sayer
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Gosh isn't this a regimented way of going things! I wish I got paid £50 or £25 for every pipe I tuned! I wish the campaign all the best. J
I must confess to a certain personal involvement in this! It's difficult to make appeals for organ overhauls - as opposed to new instruments - attractive to the general public. The Appeal Committee thought this would be a suitably 'fun way' of getting people involved, and not just organ buffs. It seems to have gone down quite well so far.
These 'pipe sponsorship matrices' (Pfeifenpatenschaft) are quite common in Germany, by the way, which may account for the impression of 'regimentation'.
The individual costs per pipe are, admittedly, fairly arbitrary: if all 3000+ pipes were to be sponsored it would raise about 2/3 of the amount required.
JS
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In view of the thread in "Nuts and bolts" regarding the ergonomics of consoles, and stop jambs in particular, what do people think of how this console is shaping up? Scroll down to the bottom of the above link: there are pictures of the console taking shape.
Why are we so obsessed with typically insular notions of console ergonomics, particuarly with such things as angled stop jambs?
If we have the confidence to commission on overseas builder to build an organ - and in this case a 'baroque organ' - why don't we allow him to build it in his own style - which presumably means straight stop jambs - instead of asking him to conform to what, to him, is an alien aesthetic? Why not respect the integrity of the builder's overall concept, uncompromising as it may be in some respects?
JS
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Another (slight)variation told to me some years ago:
Best was engaged to play for a Public ceremony but the Lord Mayor had been late in arriving and Best was caused to have to play for 'extra time'.
The Mayor's attendant walked up to Best and said that the Mayor wished to hear to organ so he wedged the top note down with a pencil and left!
The organ was blown by a steam engine until quite late on - up to the time of the 1930 rebuild, I think. The stone bed of the engine is still there.
DW
As it happens, Friedrich posted the same query on our sister site Orgelforum (hosted by builders Jäger & Brommer). I added the following reply which seems to confirm DW's version:-
A short monograph "Impressions of W T Best" by John Mewburg Levien (publ. Novello & Co, London 1942 and now something of a rarity) contains the following couple of paragraphs (p. 15)
One day, when he was going to play a concerto at the beginning of the second part of a concert, the secretary came to him towards the end of the interval and said, "Do you mind going in now, Mr Best, and playing something on the organ: the audience like to hear it when they are getting back into their seats while the orchestra is tuning." Best went to the organ, cut a lead pencil into four wedges, fastened down the common chord of C major in the middle of the Great manual, drew the Open Diapason stop, and sat down beside the organ, which the returning audience heard in this unusual way.
Yet again, at a banquet, at which in the course of the after-dinner proceedings Best had to play a solo on the organ, the chairman unfortunately announced at the appropriate moment, "The organ will now play." A footman, thinking he had not heard, leant over his chair and said, "Mr Best, it was announced that the organ will play." "Damn the organ, let it play," replied Best, in a very audible voice. The chairman had to rise again, and say, "Mr Best will now favour us with a solo on the organ," and then the organist rose from his seat and "obliged".
JS
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I always thought that Geoffrey Morgan came to Guildford 15 years after Barry Rose left...
A Rose by another name - said by Bernard Rose to GM when he was organ scholar at Magdalen.
JS
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This becomes quite interesting !
Waltershausen is among the things we still have that are the closest to what Bach really
had under his fingers and feet on a day-to-day basis, in his area; and we know that
if he did not play Waltershausen, he did at Altenburg, which is very close to it, and
warmly approved it.
The somewhat awkward layout is documented by the critics of A-H Casparini, one of
Eugen Casparini's sons, while working in Altenburg as a Trost's apprentice.
Trost built marvels, and then crammed them somewhat. Nobody's perfect, isn't it ?
"Not far away is Naumburg, and Zacharias Hildebrandt's masterpiece at St Wenzel, a magisterial instrument of great integrity, yet by no means lacking in colour and variety. If you are in that part of the world, it's well worth a pilgrimage to hear at regular 'Orgelpunkt Zwölf' recitals at noon on Wednesdays and Saturdays throughout the year."
(Quote)
....But is it really in an original state ?
Had it really no tierce ranks in its mixtures ?
So much were removed during the 20th century that I barely believes it...
Pierre
JSB inspected the organ at Naumburg, gave the opening recital and most probably had a hand in the tonal design. The records seem to suggest the mixtures contained only unisons and quints.
HW Mixtur 8rks 15-19-22-26-29-33-33-36,
OW Scharf 5rks 22-26-29-33-36,
RP Zimbel 5rks 19-22-26-29-33.
Whether this was JSB's preference or Hildebrandt's, or a surviving influence from the previous Thayssner instrument, we may never know. The tierce-less mixture sound at Naumburg may just be the exception to the rule in Thuringia at the time. That said, the HW has a separate Sesquialtera 2rks which could be added to the chorus, and the same is probably true of the individual mutations on the OW. Interestingly there is no third-sounding rank on the RP. (And we know that Hildebrandt was obliged to retain the RP case from the previous organ, another unusual feature).
Though less 'extreme' and less hotch-potch than Waltershausen, the Naumburg scheme is just as original, for example the pairs of flutes and strings at 8' and 4' on HW and RP, hence my earlier comment about greater integrity of tonal design.
Around 50-55% of the original pipework survives, with the remainder (including almost all the reeds) being painstaking historical reconstructions. Who can say how close today's sound comes to what JSB heard in September 1746? It's a pretty impressive aural experience nonetheless.
JS
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Well, what did fellow forumites make of this evening's offering? Personally I thought JSW's playing splendid as ever (even if the NBA text does suggest a slower speed for at least the prelude). However, I'm afraid I just cannot warm to the Waltershausen organ. I've never heard it live, admittedly, but nothing I've yet heard makes me inclined to make the effort.
Waltershausen is a little off the beaten track but the organ is worth going to hear and play, if a little quirky. Its appearance in the lofty, galleried, oval church is stunning.
The organ is a magnificent testament to 18c ingenuity and invention in organ building. The layout is decidedly haphazard, requiring something like 90m of trunking to supply all the various windchests. The pipework is beautifully made, with fancifully decorated boots for the reeds and and turned stays for the rack boards. Some ranks are of very odd construction and tonal quality -overblowing flutes, quintadenas, doubled pipes (back-to-back with two mouths) and an incredibly keen string almost worthy of Wurlitzer. Although there are many undeniably novel and attractive stops, the overall sound does not really hang together, and the bold plenum, with its profusion of tierce mixtures, can become slightly wearisome after a while.
The organ struck me as a magnificent 'one-off' and that Johann Heinrich Trost had probably reached the end of the line in experimentation for his time. His style of organbuilding does not seem to lead anywhere (though Pierre L will probably disagree with me).
Not far away is Naumburg, and Zacharias Hildebrandt's masterpiece at St Wenzel, a magisterial instrument of great integrity, yet by no means lacking in colour and variety. If you are in that part of the world, it's well worth a pilgrimage to hear at regular 'Orgelpunkt Zwölf' recitals at noon on Wednesdays and Saturdays throughout the year.
JS
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To be serious for a bit, this is the key to it, and I know we have gone into this on other threads before. The voluntary at the end, as much as the voluntary before are part of worship, and part of our worship in particular. Our gifts are as organists, and we offer these gifts (whether paid or not) as part of worship, and as a gift to God. For someone to then get up and destroy that gift is at the best insensitive and rude and at the worst an offence to God himself. As a people we are here to worship God, and this includes the voluntary!
As an aside, the people who make these announcements tend to be the same people that complain when a baby cries in the service that it is interfering with 'their' worship'
Jonathan
I look forward to attending morning service next Sunday at a large Lutheran church in South Germany with a magnificent new 4m Goll organ. There, you can be sure, the Orgelvorspiel will be heard in respectful silence and, at the end, neither clergy nor congregation will move until the final voluntary is over. Andere Länder, andere Sitten ..... (Other lands, other ways).
JS
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Semi-Pro choir and full brass in this morning so we finished off with 'Hallelujah Chorus' from Messiah. Great applause at end, so didn't need to do a voluntary after that!! Straight to coffee and Sunday lunch
.........Grand!
What a splendid idea - and not just in this anniversary year. I sure more choirs ought to follow this example.
JS
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My wife and I have a true 'Truhenorgel' built by a German organ builder. There appears to be a distinct difference between the 20thc 'anodyne' organs, as John Sayer so aptly puts it. We simply did not like the first organ (8, 4, 2) that we had, as it had no definition and feather-light key action. What we have a is a much more full-bodied instrument which sounds really quite big. However, it has proved extremely popular in recent hires where they have chosen this instrument, and the clients have found the instrument a revelation - with a firm key action and a good big broad tone too. I think the 'chamber' description of English organs is extremely apt - implying a gentler sound and feel altogether. For information, our organ has the following stops:
8 Copula
4 Gedackt
2 Principal
1 1/2 Quinte
1/2-1 Piccolo
The 1/2-1 Piccolo breaks back giving the cunning impression of a Mixture.
Well - we like it!
Hector
Most interesting - I meant to add that John Eliot Gardner preferred a rather fuller and more varied continuo sound in his European 'Bach 2000' recording odyssey of the complete church cantatas. The instrument specially built by Robin Jennings has the following stoplist:-
Principal 8
Gedackt 8
Oktave 4
Rohrflöte 4
Superoktave 2
Sifflöte 1/Quinte 1 ⅓
JS
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In the Mattäus-passion days, like myself, many of us may be playing on a 'chestorgan' (is that the correct translation for the 'truhenorgel'?).
Just wondering: in a baroque orchestra, where does this organ fit in? Is it an acurate copy of a baroque instrument or is it (as I suspect) in fact a 20th century (neo-baroque) invention? I know of only two examples (seen on photo) of 'real' baroque organs-like-a-box, but these were actually normal organs in a different housing (quite large in fact).
I would suggest 'box organ' as the obvious literal translation of 'Truhenorgel', though 'chamber organ ' is often the preferred, and slightly misleading, term on record sleeves and concert programmes etc.
The Archiv CD of JS Bach's Epiphany Mass was recorded in a village church in Saxony, with the organ continuo provided by a substantial 18c. organ of 23 stops. James Johnstone's programme note includes the following interesting comment :-
"The demands of present-day concerts and recordings are such that we are used to hearing Bach's concerted music with small chamber organs. It has therefore been a fascnating experience to capture on CD the sound of a relatively large organ at the core of Bach's ensemble, supporting the small numbers of instruments in concerted ensembles, and creating a much more colourful background to the recitative."
This seems to be more in line with performance practice in Bach's time than the typical, slightly anodyne sound of the 20c. 8-4-2 box organ.
JS
JS
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................so why does the West Great at the proposed new organ at Llandauff have a 5 rank mixture in its 4 stops but no 16'? (especially odd as every other manual division has a 16' stop)...........
Did I read somewhere that the new Nave division at Llandaff will not be sited in the George Pace case on the arch (with the Epstein Majestas) as was the HNB Positif, presumably on grounds on accessibility?
JS
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I really was wondering when someone would get around to this one.
One could add almost anything by Rieger, especially when voiced by Mr. Pohl. Vierzehnheiligen......Nürnberg is quite a good place to hear it from. Its much too loud in the pub.
B
I think one might say the same of St Giles' Cathedral, Edinburgh. Despite its many beautiful sounds up to mf or f, anything more than that soon become oppressive. Full organ, event in the most distant recesses of the building, is painfully loud. On the rare occasions when mega-decibels are needed, a better answer would be to bring in a brass ensemble.
JS
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In Holland, paying to play organs is normal. I know places where you pay EUR 25 per hour. One of the great things I've always found about Britain is the (comparatively) generous culture among organists in granting access to their instruments. In the situation discussed here, we're talking about an adult who wants to improve his playing and who may provide a useful talent to the church (in general) in future. I think its a shame, given how little it will cost the church, to insist on his paying to be able to practise, they should see it as an investment in their own future!
Bazuin
I recall the same generosity towards visitors on the Continent twenty years ago, when a polite advance postcard or phone call - or even a knock on the door - would allow access for a humble 'britischer Hobbyorganist' to many quite wonderful historic organs.
Things have changed over the years, and, for example, on a return visit to South Germany next month, I find that the more prestigious churches are charging a fee for 'Orgelbesichtigungen', in some case as much as 60 -80 euros for small groups, though presumably less for individuals.
JS
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Oh dear dear dear. John, you know that this isn't the case at all: the then INCUMBENT isisted that he remote console be installed and that there was no getting around that if the work was going to be done at all.
I was also delighted when the electric stuff was uninstalled, which had been carried out in such a manner as to be completely removable without trace - and I DID insist on that.
For those of you not 'in the know', I was the Commercial Manager for the contract, acting for Taylor Woodrow.
DW
Incumbents can be a menace in such matters. I recall talking to the vicar of a nearby church just south of the river with an equally historic reconstructed instrument on the west gallery. He was bemoaning the fact that he did not get his wish for a detached console on the chancel steps. "I no longer have eye-contact with my organist", he said, to which I replied that it was rather more important that his organist had contact with his organ. Fortunately in this case the consultant's advice prevailed.
JS
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Apologies - I and NPOR must be mistaken. Must learn to keep my big mouth shut!
The mutation I was thinking of was None 8/9 and there is a Teint mixture on the swell (at least, according to NPOR
)The None 8/9 is still there - no None (i.e. known) use, as organ scholars have often remarked. I believe the Teint II has lost its 16/19 rank and is now just 1 1/7.
David Lumsden and Maurice Forsyth-Grant visited new organs in Germany in the 60s, where such exotic 'Aliquote' were all the rage. Even Peter Collins managed to include a None in a 19-stop scheme in his Opus 2 at Shellingford in 1965 (now transposed to 1ft).
JS
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These coupler problems are matters of design, however, not of use or age. There is no central stop in the design, and no rigidity in the frame - either end of the keyboard can slide (twisting over the lower manual) quite a way before it jams, so you can have the interesting effect of the treble being coupled and the bass not. To get to the central position (i.e. nothing coupled) you have to stop (as opposed to pause) and line both ends of the keyboard up visually with some arrows on the Man I key cheeks.
Very interesting. When I placed the order for my EOS organ back in 1998 I spotted this as a potential problem. In addition to the arrows described above indicating the central (uncoupled) position, Peter Collins fitted a ball catch let into the sliding cheeks which clicks into a hole below to provide a clearly felt central stop. As long as you shove the top keyboard backwards or forwards evenly with both hands there is no problem with twisting or misalignment. This arrangement is rather more secure than some 18c examples of shove coupler I have come across.
JS
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The Aa-kerk organ is an absolute gem.
(And one of my preffered organs, quite high on the list. Of course,
this is Nebensache!)
To want to try to "better" that one would be to play with matches
just under a gasoline tank.
Leave it alone!
Pierre
A gem, indeed, with so many indescribably beautiful individual registers and mélanges. I was privileged to sign the visitors' book on the same page as M-C Alain who voiced similar sentiments.
Beauty such as this should be left alone. Say no to soulless Teutonic historicism. So much would be lost in any attempt, however well-meant, to return to an 'ur-Schnitger' state.
JS
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Thomas Mann's 'Buddenbrooks' - one of the great novels of European literature, contains, in Chapter 8, contains an extended and sympathetic portrait of an organist, Edmund Pfühl, organist of the Marienkirche in Mann's native Lübeck. The characters of the novel are thinly disguised versions of Lübeck citizens and Pfühl's real-life counterpart is thought to have been Hermann Jimmerthal, who held the post from 1845 to 1886, as long, in fact, as his predecessor Dieterich Buxtehude. Pfühl presides at the large 4m Schulze organ destroyed in the bombing on Palm Sunday 1942. Ever the loyal, traditional, conservative church musician, Pfühl venerates the strict counterpoint of J S Bach and struggles to come to terms with the 'perfumed smoke-cloud' of Richard Wagner's music. Well worth reading, if only for this chapter.
On a lighter note, how about 'Holy Disorders' by Edmund Crispin, alias the composer, Bruce Montgomery? The story tells of villainous deeds in a West Country cathedral city during the war. Mysterious radio messages are beamed to German U-boats from high up in the cathedral. The author, an amateur sleuth (and organist) decides to investigate.
"The organ, a 4-manual Willis, (was) one of the finest in the country. He remembered it had a Horn stop which really sounded like a horn, a lovely Stopped Diapason on the Choir, a noble Tuba and a 32ft on the pedals, which, in its lowest register sent a rhythmic pulse of vibration through the whole building, unnerving the faithful...."
And the organ becomes the instrument of the supposedly perfect crime. One day, the Precentor is found dead in the north aisle, apparently crushed by a memorial slab apparently from the wall high above. Eventually, the sleuth finds out how it was done. The murderer does the old geezer in by fairly unremarkable means, then drags his body into the aisle immediately below the slab. He then manages to loosen the slab so that it is delicately poised high above. He then runs up to the organ loft, switches on, draws the Double Open Wood 32 and plants his boot on CCCC and CCCC#. Down comes the slab and the hapless cleric is reduced to strawberry jam.
Finally, a lovely quote from Gordon Reynolds - "Remember that you were once the boy downstairs whose right foot clenched in his shoe as Full Swell came shining through the diapasons".
JS
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Does anyone have practical experience of applying to the HLF for a grant for an organ restoration?
Having studied all the various guidelines and case studies, two particular questions come to mind:-
1. Just how rigorously is the 'historic' criterion applied? It seems that different regional committees have different interpretations of the guidelines.
2. What sort of programmes have to be put in place to satisfy the associated 'public access/educational access' requirements? What do they mean in terms of effort required and how long do they have to be maintained?
Any advice gratefully received...
JS
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BTW, if anyone knows this organ, what does the 'Pedal Keyboard Elevator (Raise/Lower)' dp?
I believe the pedal board is on some sort of lift and can be adjusted up and down, presumably to suit the length of the player's legs.
It's interesting to note Ruffatti have adopted a slightly different solution on their new organ at Uppsala Cathedral by motorising the whole upper half of the console (manuals and stops) allowing a height adjustment of several centimetres up and down.
The next 'must have' will surely be heated benches.
JS
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Did he also happen to relate with what stop the organist at the time used to smite the 'enemies in the hinder parts'?
Also, no. Sir Herbert Brewer apparently managed it at Gloucester with a quick jab at the Pedal Ophicleide piston. I imagine many cathedral organists must be similarly attempted, especially if most of the clergy have nodded off by v.67.
JS
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I'm afraid that if the (flue) voicing was toned down even a little the organ would be even more inaudible at the other end than it is now! Having attended the Christmas carol services when there was (according to the usher 1100 people attending) the organ only just got away with it as it was!
It also has to be remembered that the building is to some extent a multi-functional building serving a diocese and a college. Unlike most Cathedrals there are many occasions when it is filled with hundreds of people. The organ does a pretty good job nearly all of the time. Last night we had the Murrill in E (with a couple of good blasts on the Bombarde) and I saw a new heaven (Bainton) with the Howells Ps.Prel. no. 1. The organ sounded exciting and was very skilfully played. It just needs some decent Sw. Reeds!!
I once heard Simon Preston relate how, at the dedicatory Evensong, the service music included Psalm 78 (for the XV evening) and Elgar's Spirit of the Lord, much to the bewilderment of the Rieger contingent sat below in the stalls.
JS
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Some of you may have seen reviews of the Hoddinott Hall in Cardiff, the new recording centre and performance space for the BBC Symphony Orchestra of Wales, which was inaugurated in 22 January.
Pictures of the hall seem to show an organ above and behind the stage. Does anyone know anything about it?
JS
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The Germans have traditionally taken a different line on tone synthesis. They took it particularly seriously back in the 60s and 70s, when almost every organ of any size had to have a Septime or a None or something more extreme, in addition to the usual tierces, nasards and larigots. The influence was also felt over here in such new instruments as New College, Oxford and York University.
Perhaps the most radical example of such ideas was the IVP/77 instrument built by Eule in 1966 for Zwickau Cathedral in Saxony.
The manuals contain a varied selection of flutes, principals and mild strings at 8-4-2-1, many with the slightly exotic names fashionable at that time (Trichtergedackt, Doppelrohrflöte, Weidenspiel etc) together with a generous complement of mixtures. Among the many 'Aliquoten', both single and compound, are:-
Brustwerk: Nasat 2 2/3, Repetierender Terz 2/5-1 3/5, Sept-Non 2fach plus Schellenzimbel 2f
Oberwerk: Quinte 2 2/3, Sifflöte 1 1/3, Terzzimbel 3f plus Solokornett 3-5f
Schwellwerk: Rohr-Gemsquinte 1 1/3, Octave 1/2, Sesquialter 2f, Un-Tredezime 2f plus Windharfe 2-3f (whatever that is!).
Thirds, fifths, sevenths, ninths, eleventh and thirteenths are thus all represented in the tonal palette.
There seems to have been earnest discussion about the place of such stops in the tonal scheme as well as their musical use. The opportunities for colour synthesis are well-nigh inexhaustible, though the more 'stratospheric' pitches can have a strangely disembodied quality in which the fundamental is difficult to discern. The effect in chords is distinctly bizarre.
It seems to have been a distinctly post-war phenomenon, a quest for progressive and exciting new sounds (though, interestingly the first None was recorded as far back as 1859) yet regarded today, I suspect, as something of a curiosity.
JS
32' Reeds
in General discussion
Posted
And a strange quarter-length Sordun at Worksop Prory.
JS