John Sayer
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Posts posted by John Sayer
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There's a fine can of worms you've opened, Peter
going into random thought mode
And I read recently of a London performance of a Bach passion when the audience were more than encouraged to join in all the chorales at whatever pitch was comfortable, this being what the conductor believed was standard practice in the Lutheran church of Bach's time.
I agree this could welll have been standard practice in JSB's time. If you listen to Paul McCreesh's marvellous recreations of the Praetorius Christmas Mass at Roskilde and of Bach's Epiphany Mass at Freiberg, the congregation can clearly be heard singing the chorales at 3 octave pitches, ie. women as notated and the men singing both one and two octaves below. A fine sound, especially in the unaccompanied verses.
JS
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I recently bought a copy of Franck's L'organiste and was intrigued by the way he registers the harmonium. In particular he seems fond of using a 4' stop for the lower part of the keyboard and a 16' for the upper part. How far should one reproduce these pitches when playing the pieces on a pipe organ? Do we know what the organists of Franck's time did?
As I understand it, Franck's (& Vierne's) registrations relate specifically to the divided keyboard and short compass stops of the harmonium. They wrote at 8va for the RH at 16ft in the top half of the keyboard and 8va basso for the LH at 4ft in order to give the effect of two contrasting voices at 8ft unison pitch.
The numbers shown in the score (2 5 8 etc) refer to the standard stop numbering system used by contemporary French harmonium builders such as Alexandre. All you have to do is 'play by numbers', drawing the prescribed stops to achieve the correct sonorities. The apparently baffling matter of pitches etc then makes complete sense. The musical result, however, in terms of texture and melodic line, may come as something of a surprise, particularly if you have come to these pieces via the organ.
The organ, of course, does not have the same prescribed and predictable tonal palette as the harmonium, so that attempts to reproduce the harmonium registrations are unlikely to be successful. However, I'm sure that an awareness of how they should sound on that instrument is a great help in realising them on the organ. The couple of occasions I've managed to try out a few of these pieces on an authentic harmonium have been something of a revelation.
JS
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This might be a good console to use for discussion.
I think I understand how they work, but I'll be sensible and leave it to the Germans to explain!
I'm sure detailed explanations are best left to someone like Barry Jordan, but I would point out that consoles such as Doesburg - with their little buttons or lollipop sticks above the stop tablets - are as much a thing of the past as the glass-fronted piston setter cabinets made by H&H in the 50s and 60s. That said, the specific registration technique associated with them which was a lot more flexible that might at first appear and was closely determined by the repertoire they were designed to play.
I think I'm right in saying the Germans use the term 'Walze' (from walzen - to roll, from which also comes the name of the dance) in preference to 'Rollschweller', though I notice Reger seems to use the two interchangeably in his music.
I'd also be interested in learning a little more about present-day piston arrangements in Germany, as typified maybe by what Schuke have provided at Magdeburg. My understanding is that such systems are subtly different from what we know over here - for example divisional pistons between the key-slips seem to be a relative rarity - all dictated, once again, by repertoire and, presumably, by liturgical use.
JS
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I think everything depends on the style of the console. I imagine colour coding would look very out of place on an Aubertin for example.
Yet Bernard Aubertin uses turned stop knobs of different types (and colours) of wood to denote different divisions - a stylish and effective solution.
JS
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Hi
That assumes that the temperament of the Casio is correct to start with - some older electronic keyboards are significantly adrift in this respect because of the difficulty of generating the correct intervals. (And I suspect that some electronic tuners have the same problem - certainly I was never really happy with my piano when I set the bearings from the tuner).
Every Blessing
Tony
I'm sure you're right about cheap electronic keyboards; apart from the fact that the subdivision of the octave into 12 may not be not sufficiently accurate for this purpose, the perfectly true octaves (i.e. each ascending octave being exactly double the frequency of the one below, and simple to achieve electronically) do not replicate what happens on the 'acoustic' piano, because the physics are different.
I believe the physical properties of the wire strings mean that the octave partials generated become gradually sharper with each ascending octave. The second partial (the half-length) of the A440 string will actually vibrate at 881Hz, requiring the A above to be tuned at 881Hz to sound true and the one above that at about 1764Hz. This stretching of the octaves is necessary to deceive the ear into accepting them as 'true'. I also seem to recall the bass monochord strings also require an element of adjustment in their tuning.
This is all part of the skill of the professional tuner. I certainly wouldn't risk attacking my piano with a tuning hammer and digital meter.
JS
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I am disappointed at the large number of organs that are tuned perfectly in octaves but have inaccurate bearings. (i.e. the internal relationship within the octave.) I remember one tuner (now retired) from a very large company saying "Oh, you mustn't alter that; they have got used to it over the years."
Now that electronic machines are available for accurate tuning, there is no excuse whatsoever for inaccurate bearings, yet the majority of organs seem only to be tuned in octaves.
Barry Williams
I have just acquired a Korg OT/120 electronic gizmo (£75) with which to tune my 4 rank house organ (8+4, 8+2) after it was moved from one room to another. Setting the bearings took a fair amount of time - a matter of getting the needle dead centre and the +/- indicator lights equally lit. With hindsight a machine with an exact digital frequency read-out might have been a better, if more expensive buy.
The meter also helped to check the octaves, especially in the top ranges of the Fifteenth, not easy when the pipes are in a tightly enclosed space only a few inches from the ear.
Does anyone have any practical advice on the use of such gadgets for amateurs like me who find the traditional method of counting beats etc all rather daunting? I'd be particularly interested in using them to tune to unequal temperaments (the Korg meter apparently caters for Werkmeister, Valotti and about half-a-dozen other 'classical' temperaments').
JS
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The more I think about this more the more angry I am becoming.
I share that anger. Whilst there may be a case for formal appraisals in the case of full-time professional organists, such as cathedral musicians, it cannot be appropriate for those who, week by week, year by year, give of their time and skills for a miserable £1,800 per annum or whatever, most of them in a honest and humble belief in the 'mission of music' in the worship of Almighty God.
Spare us, good, Lord, from mission statements, key performance indicators, core skills, competencies, objectives, targets, synergies and all other ghastly manifestations of present-day management-speak.
It strikes me as a pretty poor sort of incumbent who resorts to, or acquiesces in, such insensitive and heavy-handed tactics. One of the core skills of such people, surely, is an ability to deal with all sorts and conditions of men. One obvious way of showing their (Christian) duty of care over their 'employees' - including the organist - is by regular meetings, with a degree of formality (or otherwise) decided by mutual agreement.
PCCs these days seem all too often to be getting above themselves, with touchy-feely incumbents too scared to gainsay them instead of showing proper leadership and guidance.
One way of countering any requirement for formal appraisals is to insist on the ultimate weapon of full 360-degree assessment of all concerned, paid and unpaid, so that such self-important busybodies are forced to contemplate their own unlovely image.
JS
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Charles-Marie Widor having been défunt for 70 years, I see that his Symphonies - presumably now in the public domain - are available for free download at:
I imagine you need a decent laser printer for all those notes!
JS
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The dutch organradio site has a nice broadcast with english organs, listen to it here (click on "Klik hier ....").
What a fascinating website and excellent selection of music and instruments. One can't imagine Radio 3 doing anything quite so culturally enlightened.
A very civilised nation, the Dutch - and they even play cricket, too!
JS
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Hello! Nice topic, could have appeared in a German forum!!!
It is VERY strange that a musician and humurous player like Hindemith (listen to his string quartet recordings) believed, that organ music must be that boring as it appears, if you just play what is written!
I'm sure Hindemith did indeed have a sense of humour. My favourite quotations of his - remembering he was a string player - is:-
"I don't know how Bach, with no vibrato, could have so many children".
JS
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Very disappointing; it's one of the few CDs that I've taken to a charity shop rather than keep.
Paul
Back in the good old days of Wednesdays at 5.55 at the RFH I heard Rübsam play a whole Bach programme from memory. I was bowled over by his performance of the P & F in B minor - a wonderfully magisterial sense of inevitability about the whole thing.
A few years later at the ICO in Cambridge in 1987, I actually walked out of his recital at Trinity because of his maddeningly idiosyncratic rubato which completely ruined the pulse and rhytmn of his playing. I find his Naxos CDs just as unbearable.
However, I do like his Rheinberger recordings on the same label - he really plays 'with balls', for want of a better expression, which is the only way to make Rheinberger come to life. The remarkably gutsy Sauer/Rieger organ at Fulda Dom helps as well.
Incidentally, he's been awarded a degree in hairdressing and not just on account of his amazing en chamade moustachios - apparently he's a fully qualified practitioner.
JS
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Both Naumburg and Haarlem do, of course, include the Terzchor, which is the point I was making.
MM
I think you are wrong about a Terzchor at Naumburg, where the mixture compositions at C are, according to my notes:-
HW Mixtur 8fach : 15-19-22-26-29-33-33-36
OW Scharf 5fach : 22-26-29-33-36
RP Zimbel 5fach: 19-22-26-29-33.
The HW has a Sesquialter 2fach, but I don't believe it was intended to be used in the plenum. The OW mutations are of tin and almost principal scaled, but, again, intended, I'm sure, for solo use. The RP, unlike North German models, has no tierce which leaves the Nassat as the sole mutation colouring.
I think third-sounding muxture ranks are more typical of other Saxon/Thuringian builders like Heinrich Trost and also Joachim Wagner from Magdeburg, whose choruses at Brandenburg Cathedral have an unmistakable reedy clang to them. Hildebrandt, on the other hand, seems to have remained true to more classical traditions.
When all's said and done, I think I'd stick my neck out and say Naumburg is quite the most wonderful 18c instrument anywhere in Europe. A notice on the music desk asks players not to touch the paper inserts in the stop handles as 'they were touched by JSB himself' - a truly humbling experience just to sit at the console.
JS
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What fascinating clips these are to my ears, the more so having seen the Berliner Dom organ for the first time last month, but not having been able to hear it. Two things still surprised me. Firstly, the playing struck me as being remarkably modern (for want of a better word) for the time they were done and secondly, it demonstrates once again how strong the roots of German romantic organ are in what preceded it. One finds the same thing in the Ladegast organs as well of course (Ladegast having claimed he made his pipes in the same style as did Silbermann). One finds the same thing in the early C-C organs as well of course (St. Omer being a good example, although this was a rebuild of course). Does the Berliner Dom organ still sound like this?
One also has to note what a remarkable achievement the recording seems to be. Firstly of course, simply doing it at that time in Berlin. Particularly in 1944, one would have imagined that there was very little enthusiasm for doing things like recording organs, let alone the availability of material to do it. But more than that is the (what I believe to be) very difficult acoustic in the Berliner Dom. Although I have not heard any music in it myself, I gather from my friend in Berlin that finding a spot to hear from without the sound being confusing is not at all easy.
Thank you for the fascinating clips and do let us know if the CD did become available again.
John Pike Mander
I was fortunate enough to attend the opening recital on restored organ on the day of the re-dedication of the Berliner Dom on Sunday 6th June 1993, a memorable occasion. Heinz Wunderlich played works by Bach and Reger, among others. I remember the sound being less confused than one might have expected. Despite the huge volume of the dome, I suspect the acoustic is not as difficult as, say, St Paul's. I have heard the instrument on several occasions since, in both services and recitals. It is a rich warm sound but not a vast one, the 'volles Werk' being even a little underwhelming. This may have something to do with the fact that most of the windchests are apparently below impost level in the heavy mahogany(?) case which is little more than a facade.
It's something of a miracle the organ survived for deacdes in the roofless near-ruin of the cathedral with shrapnel holes clearly visible in the front pipes. Fortunately the north transept remained more or less intact and may have afforded some protection to the organ in the gallery below.
After the war I believe Heitmann himself proposed a radical rebuilding of the organ with 5 manuals, mechanical action, largely new pipework and a neo-barock specification. Fortunately perhaps, there were other priorities in the GDR of the 1950s. After 40 years of silence, the modern Sauer firm brought this remarkable piece of organ history back to life, a wonderful achievement.
JS
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Very briefly and simply, I think the "orgelbewebung" did do a great deal of good for organ building
I agree with everything you say, but the word is Orgelbewegung (lit. organ movement). Bewebung suggests something to do with looms and weaving.
JS
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I suspect that if a choir were singing the chorale in between the twiddly bits, it could sound very impressive.
There were contemporary reports of Bach also modulating wildly during the singing of the chorales; no doubt inspired by equal-temper tuning.
The "In dulci jubilo" should really go quite slowly, and with lots of rubato, whatever the notes suggest.
I think that they tended to savour the chorales in Germany, and still do.
MM
If you wan't to hear what the chorales sounded like sung by the congregation with organ interludes, you need to listen to Paul McCreesh's recording of the 'Epiphany Mass' with the Gabrieli Consort on Archiv, where James Johnstone deliberately sets out to re-create JSB's wild flights of harmonic fancy in Vom Himmel hoch -and this on the decidedly non-equally tempered Silberman instrument at Freiberg Dom. After ten verses at truly magisterial tempo the effect does rather begin to pall.
I always find it inspiring to hear many German organists keeping alive the tradition of introducing the chorales with extended improvisations, and, indeed, this is a skill still taught in church music academies.
JS
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Come again? Are you suggesting that if Bach didn't write then Bach must have written it?
At the risk of stating the obvious, if Bach didn't write then we don't know who wrote it, do we?And I don't suppose we ever will.
Those who read German may be interested in a recent book dealing expressly with the authenticity of BWV 565, by Rolf-Dietrich Claus, entitled Zur Echtheit von Toccata und Fuge d-moll BWV 565 (Verlag Dohr, Köln-Rheinkassel - ISBN 3-925366-37-37).
I have prepared an English translation and the author and I hope to find a UK publisher fairly soon.
I don't want to give the game away, but Dr Claus's conclusion is that the work is almost certainly much later than hitherto assumed, maybe 1750 or later and that Ringk and Kellner are indeed among the list of suspects. The book does not set out to be a musical who-dunnit and it thus seems unlikely we will ever know the answer.
JS
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Try clicking the Union Jack symbol. There is an English version.
Yes, but this amusing semi-Franglais version doesn't seem to explain the dusty disaster to which Justadad refers. It's amazing how often church authorities spend a fortune on the organ and then start sandblasting the stonework or something similar. This sort of blunder seems to happen more often in France than anywhere else.
JS
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Jerusalem is becoming as popular as "Sing Hosanna" round my way. I really don't think this hymn is appropriate for weddings - lines like "I shall not cease from mental strife, nor shall my sword sleep in my hand" - probably true in both cases in some marriages but it's much more about nationlism than marriage.
A most inappropriate choice, I agree, but why do the clergy allow it? Or, at least, why don't they explain what is and what is not suitable? Too lazy, easy way out, fear of giving offence or just too unimaginative to see their way out of awful touchy-feely acquiescence? Or maybe fear of the bride's mother?
Funerals, if anything, are even worse. I've had sensitively chosen, liturgically appropriate Bach chorale preludes and the like ousted in favour of Rod Stewart CDs, not to mention hymns with words so crassly unsuitable as to be downright offensive.
Quite the worst - though it didn't happen on my watch - was a CD of Hello Dolly - You're looking great, Dolly, you're looking swell, Dolly and It's great to have you back where you belong
It might sound a tad morbid, bit it's worth setting out one's own wishes for when the day comes - for me it's JSB Sei gegrüßet - last 2 variations, with the final one played flat out complete with Bombardon 32!
JS
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Hello all!
The region "Altes Land" - the small area between Hamburg and Stade, on the left side of the Elbe river, containing known instruments mostly made or rebuilt by Schnitger, e. g. Steinkirchen, Borstel, Neuenfelde, Mittelnkirchen a. o. - is preparing an exhibition about its organ culture.
During research we found out, that the well-known interest, which was
thanks and greetings from Neuenfelde
Karl-Bernhardin Kropf
The whole "Elbe-Weser-Winkel" or triangle is a lovely part of Germany, particularly in April/May, when all the fruit trees in the Altes Land are in blossom. It's mostly low-lying, with thatched, timbered cottages nestling behind the dykes. Stade is an attractive historic town with two quite magnificently restored 17-18c organs. I was fortunate to spend a year there in the late '60s and got to know many of the remarkable instruments of the region.
Ostfriesland, the area on the other side of the Weser stretching west to the Dutch border, has an equally rich organ heritage, of course.
This part of Germany was 'liberated' by the British, of course. Montgomery advanced as far east as the town of Wismar on the Baltic, but then, alas, pulled back 80kms as part of the boundary settlement with the Russians. Fortunately, the great Hanseatic city of Lübeck remained (just) in the British zone of occupation.
JS
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Just after the Malmesbury Johnson was built there was a wizard BBC3 broadcast by Peter Le Hurray from there. Perhaps he was involved, as of course, his own college instrument is a Johnson (still jolly nice to play and teach on, even though the wind trunk up the stairs reminds that you might be in Steerage on the Mauritania). I was Director of Music at Milton Abbey and Trevor Doar adores this organ (even I had difficulty sometimes in getting on it!). Trevor is a legend - came straight from Trinity Hall in the 1950's and still is the School Organist I believe. Extraordinary sight reader and fine brain in the Common Room. Those in Dorset will know him well. As for the place - is there hardly any finer setting in which to vegetate? The lock on the 32' is totally in keeping with it's curator.
As for 32's - there are a number on the continent - but shall not make you drool here.
All the best,
Nigel
I agree, the Milton Abbey G&D is a glorious instrument in a glorious building. I remember being bowled over by the sound effortlessly filling the vast vaulted space at a BIOS Conference in 86 or 87, soon after it was moved aloft to the screen.
I believe TD was once taken to task over his choice of name 32ft Contra Reim. "What the heck", he said, "I paid for it, so I'll call it Double Doars if I like..."
JS
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Dankpsalm is 145/2, Siegesfeier 145/7.
The victory celebration did have to be cancelled, didn't it? But the Dankpsalm is also dedicated "to the German army."
Cheers
B
Didn't I read somewhere that Reger turned down an honorary degree from Cambridge University (?) in 1916, shortly before he died, in protest at the use of dum-dum bullets by the British Army in Flanders - or am I imagining things?
Does anyone play Siegesfeier these days? I believe Brian Runnett re-discovered it in the 70s (Opus 145 being published for years as 6 pieces rather than 7) and Roger Judd recorded all 7 from St George's Chapel, Windsor in 1996 .
JS
JS
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http://www.sauerorgelbau.de/2264.pdf
Lawrence has an invitation to play here in the summer.
All hint's tips and advice greatfully received, as ever.
Barry
My recollection - albeit from 1984 - is of a big instrument with electro-pneumatic action and detached console half-way down the gallery on the south side of the church. It had the usual stop tablets and standard BDO parallel but concave pedalboard. The Chamade was something of a novelty in GDR times, added at the request of the distinguished organist Johannes Köhler I'm not sure what changes Sauer made in the most recent rebuild, but I doubt if they were all that radical. Maybe Barry Jordan knows more.
JS
Later - profuse apologies. I missed the vital words "mechanische Tontraktur" in the Sauer prospectus. Their work in 200 was obviously much more extensive than I thought.
JS
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Oddest thing to see by a console has to be the (moderately ancient) lever that operates the carved wooden hand which pokes out just above the entrance to the choir, part of the organ screen at Ripon Cathedral. This was obviously intended so that the organist could conduct the choir without being seen!
This dates back to the time when the organist sat in the oriel gallery with his back to the choir and with the wooden hand just behind him. What a pity Gilbert Scott had to plonk his big heavy case right up against the edge of the magnificent carved medieval screen, with only token acknowlegdement of the oriel gallery in the protruding 'tower' above which now houses the Great Tromba 16. The console was placed within the screen on the south side so that the organist could see east and west.
Now that the cathedral has a marvellous new mobile nave console, it would be nice to think the screen console could one day return to its original position.
JS
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Oh dear! The poor suffering people of Holland!
MM
Or Belgium, surely. It's not that loud!
JS
[The Brussels Cathedral instrument is rather fine, though having the swell division literally beneath one's feet is an odd sensation. From the vertiginous gallery you can just make out the fibreglass tracker wires to the detached pedal towers on each side. They're completely invisible from the nave below - very clever].
At the risk of stating the obvious, if Bach didn't write then we don't know who wrote it, do we?
Odd Gadgets On Organs
in The Organ
Posted
The Nashorn 2 2/3Fuß is to be found on the early 18c organ at Dornum on the East Friesland coast.
I also had the pleasure of meeting KMD Bethke many years ago and was much impressed by his infectious enthusiasm, generosity and musicianship. After the Sunday morning service he kindly gave us the freedom of the console in a locked cathedral for two hours while he went off to lunch.
The Feuerwehr stories are indeed true. There is also the story of the fire brigade being 'called up' unexpectedly one morning to demolish the post-war concrete gallery to make way for the new Rieger instrument at the west end. I also recall the lovely choir organ in the crossing with quite the most aetherially beautiful Gemshorn 8 I've ever heard. The second manual, with just a Regal 8, was detachable and often used for outdoor concerts, including 'Water Music' festivities on the nearby lakes.
JS