Ian Ball
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Posts posted by Ian Ball
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It's all about comfort zones, isn't it? Not about what is really needed or wanted.
Welcome to the club.
Well, I'm obviously the Club's newest member. I found the whole thing self-satisfied, smug, middle class, middle-of-the-road-mungous pap. And I used to enjoy working with an excellent local Christian music group. The arrangements were the only remotely interesting bits (some good playing!). Pity the Beeb managed to make the RAH organ sound like an electronic, with all those turbo-charged mixtures.
Radio 2 has at last moved with the times. It's a pity our 'worship leaders' haven't (or, at least, the safe ones that get the air time).
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The more photos the better Ian! There are several free sites you can join and post images on, Facebook is one. Or send them to me via PM and I'll put them on mine.
Just looking more closely on the ebay photos reveals some interesting points:
The stop knob for the Open Diapason is different to the rest. It has red initial letters, and refers to "Open Diap. Large 8 ft". As there is only one OD on this instrument, the stop knob is likely from another organ. Also, all the other stops knobs only list the number without the 'ft'. To add to the Bishop & Son idea, the diapason stop knob is actually typical of that firm, during the Bishop & Star period, where all initial letters (including their impressive brass name plate) were in red. I'm willing to believe though that other builders also used this style during the same period, but I've not seen any examples.
As to the Clarabella stop knob, the inclusion of the word 'stopt' suggests that this was not from a Bishop organ.
The yellowing of a few others, doesn't necessarily suggest they are from elsewhere, as Ivory often ages at different rates, and of course depends on use. Perhaps the OD stop knob was replaced because the engraving had completely worn off.
It seems that there are at least two builders involved. The absence of any obvious name plate suggests that neither Bishop nor Wadsworth actually built or rebuilt the organ as it stands now. I would think that there was a third builder who put the whole thing together, or made significant repairs. Let's hope that the pipes are at least from the same builder.
The casework finials don't seem quite elaborate enough to be the work of Bishop & Son. Theirs were more like little castle turrets, but again, there may well have been many exceptions, particularly for a house organ.
Did the Church in which it stood for 100 years tell you about the original stencilled façade pipes? It seems a shame these were discarded.
You might be able to eliminate Bishop & Son by contacting them (Mr Maurice Merrell), their telephone numbers are on the easy-to-find web site. Given the 'Grafton Esq, Heysham Hall' clue, if it is B & S, then they should have records of it. They have been very helpful in the past.
Thanks David. I have posted a lot of the photos on my Facebook, but I try to keep that private. I suppose I could start a group, but that would be a tad grandiose. What's your email address? Mine: ianfball@hotmail.com.
I did wonder about the LARGE Open Diapason, although the font seems consistent with the rest of the organ (British Leyland used their own parts bin across the range; no reason why an organ builder can't, but it's a bit shoddy...). I do hope the pipework is all from the same conception - it formed a lovely mélange the one time I played it, about a month ago: a real luxury for one used to house organs that only possess one unevenly voiced chiffy 8ft on unsteady wind, common to both manuals and pedal, topped by an asthmatic 4 foot and a vanilla 2' Gemshorn. I'm sorry, but even a trio sonata sounds better played on well-voiced 8 foots. And I have no wish to practise trio sonatas at my time of life; there's too much Vierne, Reger and Howells to learn! Oops, and Eben, obviously.
I would love a Celeste tho. I could improvise away with the Gt 4' Harmonic Flute coupled to pedal til the Merlot makes me insensible... Pedal divide anyone? Digital 32' for left foot?
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Do the packing labels suggest a point of origin, or which regional railway carried the goods. This might yield some clue ?
H
Sadly not, but it would have been long before the glory days of the London, Midland and Scottish
I hope all will be revealed once I crack open the soundboard... or invite John Budgen for a decent bottle of claret and several hours' anecdotes.
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'Tuble' above is Ian's perfectly correct copy of my mis-type for tumbler.
Ah! That explains it
(you did refer to a tumbler in your later email - apologies). How do I post a picture here? I guess it's only possible via hyperlink to an external site? -
Not only was Paul extremely helpful, I would say he was rather more accurate with Wadsworth than your suggestion of Bishop & Son.
Thanks David
There are indeed splayed backfalls. Actually, the suggestion of Bishop was a tentative one of Paul's after I sent him photos of the dismantling, including shots of apparently non-Wadsworth stop action. He also mentioned that the 'tuble-style' manual coupler was uncommon (wish I could paste a photo here). It was only a tentative suggestion though, but Bishop's did make a number of 'model' organs of this type.
Obviously, I take your point about rebuilds, and given the numerous alterations to the facade over the decades, and the lack of wear on the manuals, I wouldn't be surprised if the console was a later addition, or had at least been rebuilt. I'm very grateful for your post however and will follow your suggestions re opus numbers and labels.
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Hi Ian
Can I sak you to e-mail NPOR with details of this organ and where it came from (and also where it's going)? We like to ty and keep up to date!
Many Thanks
Every Blessing
Tony (NPOR Editor)
Thanks Tony, will do. Paul Derrett has been extremely helpful and we're now tending towards Bishop & Sons. It is VERY similar to this: Bishop. More digging to be done, but there are several similar Bishops listed on NPOR.
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I played for a wedding this afternoon where a visiting quire sang three pieces, including two by Rutter. They were pleasant enough: sugary, schmaltzy and appropriate for the occasion.
It set me thinking. Does Rutter write in this style to attract the lucrative, American audience or because he can't do any better? I tend towards the former view simply because I think his Requiem is a very reasonable work and the orchestration is nicely done.
Of course his early carol stuff is now 'classic' but a forty-year career based on a recurring formula (nice melody with pianoesque accompaniment - a harmony verse - a lower voice verse - an upper voice verse - a final verse with descant) could be interpreted by some as a lack of imagination.
Undoubtedly he is hugely successful - especially across The Atlantic - and has no doubt made a comfortable living from this style of music, but I do wonder....
Any thoughts?
Try Hymn to the Creator of Light - written for the dedication of the Howells memorial window at Gloucester Cathedral. This powerful and moving work shows what he can really do. But a bloke's gotta earn a living. Malcolm Archer has a similar place in the popular market, particularly in the States, but hear him 'gloves off', particularly when improvising, and you soon appreciate his breadth and skill.
As for the John Rutter 'standard' carols, I suppose they were refreshing, imaginative, novel and fun when they first appeared. There was nothing on the market like Carols for Choirs at the time (long before my time, ahem
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You can see Moto Ostinato being performed by Arjen Leistra on the 1831 Batz organ at the Domkerk, Utrecht, in these three clips:
Apart from the spectular jumping around from manual to manual towards the end, I find it fascinating to watch the two registrants in action in almost every bar.
Actually, he cheats near the very end, staying on one manual - this is tighter by far:
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This is a shot in the dark, but I have just bought an old 7-stop organ and would love to identify the builder. For the last hundred years it has lived in Hall Green Christadelphian Church in Birmingham. On dismantling the instrument, I found labels stuck to Bourdon pipes and larger panels which read "FF Grafton Esq, Heysham Hall, Morecambe Station". It's incredible to think bits of it once travelled by train! Preliminary armchair research reveals that the Grafton family once owned Heysham Old Hall in Lancashire and made their money in the cotton (calico) trade in Manchester. What did get my mouth watering however was the sight of two EF Walcker weights on the reservoir. This could mean nothing more than the builder had them lying around in his workshop; there is also one "G&D" weight too, presumably Gray & Davidson.
The specification and sound is delightful, and the mitring on the bass pipes reinforces the likelihood of it having been built as a house organ. The Swell and Great share the same soundboard, with pallets front and back. The Swell shutters are at the rear of the organ, with the Pedal Bourdon behind.
Great
Open Diapason 8
Clarabella (enclosed in Sw box) 8
Flute (harmonic from middle C) 4
Swell
Viol di Gamba 8
Gemshorn (actually a Principal) 4
Hautboy 8
Pedal
Bourdon 16
Tracker action (pedals on a more recent pneumatic action with plastic tubes)
Here are some pictures: Ebay. However, the facade is not original. I'm told it had painted wooden dummy pipes, which have been replaced by longer Open Diapason pipes in recent years. And, no, I didn't pay £800 for it: the winning bidder defaulted; the church got back in touch - bargain! The organ is now dismantled and safely stored. All I need now is a larger Edwardian house with high ceilings...
Any ideas about the organ's possible provenance or maker would be gratefully received.
Kind regards
Ian Ball
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Moto Ostinato is of course a real party piece and great to watch at the end, with the player bouncing quickly from one manual to the next. I love his Four Biblical Dances, especially the final one depicting the Wedding at Cana. It's less dour than some of his music, likewise the drunken Student Songs movement of Faust.
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At risk of appearing provocative, there are colours more lovely and characterful here (than The Cube, not Old Gloster!):
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This is not quite my idea of the most suitable instrument on which to perform this piece:
http://www.lares.dti.ne.jp/~jubal/swm/sispec-e.html
* Which, I believe, has been re-mastered and re-released on CD.[/font]
I'm afraid I have to agree. The performance has been referred to above; the organ looks like a generic American 'classic' from the 1980s, but the sound (and even Carlo's frequent changes of colour) doesn't give the impression of anything more than a modest 3-manual. Perhaps it's the acoustic, or compression.
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The Renaissance and early Braroque french Mixtures were high-pitched,
but not the 18th century ones; these were rather deep, often with 10 2/3'
rank in the treble (Clicquot, Isnard, and as early as 1700 by Jean de Joyeuse).
Fournitures, yes, but surely not the Cymbales?
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I was not aware of this. I would be interested to learn the provenance of this remark, please.
So would I - sounds suspiciously dogmatic to me. But it is worth remembering that all those glorious, high-pitched Renaissance & Baroque French mixtures weren't used for counterpoint either.
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Which organ is the Passion Symphony recorded on?
P.
St-Ouen, in 1991.
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Thank you for this, Paul.
Surprisingly, I was not aware of this website.
I am amazed....
Wow. That Buxtehude's just too beautiful. What an artist Castagnet is (his Dupré Symphonie-Passion recording is a favourite of mine). Nice too to hear l'orgue de choeur au naturel, rather than through the triforium loudspeakers!
I know we're well off topic now...but Lefebvre's classical French alternatim Magnificat is also to die for (audio file on Grand Orgue page). Stylish singing, sublimely beautiful organ colours and a model of improvisation in that style.
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Can I assume this was as performed by David Briggs ? I remember reading somewhere (on his website ?) about performing the Ricercare at Notre Dame ; if I remember rightly, the point of the story was that the organ's computer system failed at precisely the same point in each performance.
M
Absolutely right! He restarted the piece after the first computer crash, and it happened again at exactly the same place on the stepper. Having listened to the tape many times, I now always wince when I get to the relevant bar in performance...just in case
Thankfully, it didn't happen during rehearsal, which was also recorded, so I got the chance to hear the work in its entirety. Final pedal entry is like WWIII -
I think the registration should be kept fairly simple - avoiding Stokowski effects...
Oh I agree: Guillou's interpretation of this piece (which is available on CD, played utterly dispassionately in 1967 on the Zurich Grossmünster organ) couldn't be further from the Stokowski aesthetic. Although his scheme looks complex in my list, it’s basically just 3 or 4 blocks of terraced dynamics. It would take ages to 'orchestrate' this piece on a Skinner...and I'm not sure the results would be worth the effort.
I have heard this piece using his scheme played at Notre-Dame de Paris (where the acoustic alone precludes a complex 'orchestration') and the cumulative effect is utterly shattering
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Many thanks, Ian, for such a helpful and comprehensive reply.
I am not sure, though, reading your post, if I feel more inspired or more terrified !
Kind regards,
Mark
I know how you feel. It might be more satisfying to gather 6 consenting adults with appropriate instruments, and several bottles of robust Merlot... -
I have always wanted to play this piece in an effective organ version, and have recently been looking around to see what is out there.
I have found two versions so far, both rather old editions published by Peeters, one edited by Walcha and one by Keller.
Both of them rely, sooner or later, on bringing in voices in the pedal at 4 foot pitch, largely in the central section.
It may be that this is unavoidable in order to preserve the correct voice leading, but from looking at the music, it seems to me that this might compromise the stature of the performance, namely, if the piece starts off on more or less plenum, then suddenly drops to a very light sonority, purely to acccomodate the pedals at 4 foot pitch.
Does anyone on the board play this piece, and if so, what edition do they play from. If the sudden change of texture is unavoidable, does this actually pose a problem in performance, or can it be solved musically ?
I would be very interested to learn if anyone can help.
M
Dear MAB
I play this from the Schott edition, arranged by Jean Guillou. It's a 'straight' transcription, but, yes, the central section (starting in E flat at the end of bar 39) suggests changing manuals and having a 4' reed in the pedal for the relevant entries. It then returns to the main division, but with the pedal at manual pitch, at bar 63. At bar 72, the pedal goes into 2 parts (!) and the left hand solos out the theme on a Trumpet at bar 73. Double pedalling continues until bar 79, when the pedal is given semibreves at 32' and 16' pitch. Guillou's registration plan is typical of its day:
opening until bar 39 last beat: GO Fonds 8, 4, 12th; Ped 32, 16, 8, 4;
bar 39 - 62: Pos: 8, 4, 19th; Ped 4' reed;
bar 63: Ped Fonds 8, 4 (or simply couple GO); left hand picks up GO with quavers at end bar 63; right hand joins it at bar 64;
bar 73 LH solo trompette until bar 67;
bar 79, add GO mutations; Ped add Fonds 32, 16, 8, 4;
bar 83, add GO Mixtures and ped couplers;
bar 90 piu forte
bar 94, add Pos reeds and ped 16 reed;
bar 99, Tutti
I adapt it slightly, usually by beginning on all 8' fonds (or Great 8' & 4' on a classical instrument), and using Pos 8, 4, 2 for the middle section, with the Pedal coupled at that point to any 4' stops lying around if there's no reed. I have used that scheme on both romantic and neo-classical organs. It has never lost any grandeur. In fact, the crescendo works incredibly well, mirroring the way Bach intensifies the music. I think the counterpoint is too dense and the work too long to play on a plenum throughout, even if you could preserve the pitches of the original.
And like all Bach, it's equally powerful with expressive détaché or with broad Brahmsian legato!
Hope this is useful. The piece is incredibly tricky in places, but well worth the effort. By the third public performance, nerves will have settled and you'll be hooked!
Kind regards
Ian
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Excellent! When can we expect the Echo and Nave bridge divisions?
Incidentally, does anyone know when and why the Pedal mutations were supressed at Liverpool?
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It may not surprise you to learn that I do not agree fully with this statement, Ian!
Articulation and interpretation - yes. (Incidentally, surely rhetoric applies to the written and spoken word; I am not sure how it would relate to a musical performance.) However, I would maintain that the art of registration is an integral part of interpretation.
I am not dogmatic, save that I like my Bach to sound 'beautiful' or 'good' - subjective terms, I realise. I would not dream of stating that Bach always has to be played in a certain way, with regard to either registration or interpretation. It depends on the type of organ, the acoustics of the building (and, for that matter, the nature of the space to be filled) and perhaps even how one approaches a given piece on a particular day. I do not always use the same registrations for Bach preludes and fugues (for example), but I approach each piece and instrument individually. In a recital last week I played the Concerto, in G major (after Johann Ernst, BWV 592) on what was basically a very Romantic organ, yet with careful choice of registration (something which I regard as very important), I was able to find sounds which I liked and which seemed to suit both the piece and that particular instrument.
I would agree that the music of Bach is able fully to withstand a host of interpretations on many different types of instrument. However, whilst there are many of his works which would sound 'great on a couple of flutes', I would not personally wish either to hear or to play one of the larger preludes and fugues on a Gedackt and a Nason Flute throughout. For me, this would be to rob the piece of its vitality.
Some years ago, I listened to a broadcast of some of Bach's organ music from an English cathedral. The performer was (and is) well-known as a superb musician. He also gave a commentary on his registrations before playing each work. However, what actually happened was that he played every prelude and fugue with a very similar registration. Whilst the pieces were technically faultless - and were played with a very musical articulation - I found the entire experience to be rather lifeless, even boring.
I cannot agree that registration is low down on the list of priorities. This would be similar to expecting a concert violonist to play using a Suzuki training instrument - or a flautist using a basic Yamaha model (with or without a carbon-fibre mouthpiece section). Whilst I do not doubt that they could make a good performance, the music would sound rather better if played on a much higher-quality instrument. It is possible that there would be, amongst the auditors, those who were also able to perceive the difference in tone-quality. I would suggest that the difference between one organ and another (and between a number of different registrations) is somewhat greater.
It appears, Sean, that we are in broad agreement! It's horses-for-courses at the end of the day, albeit informed by performance practice, scholarship, analysis of the music etc but including (since you question it), an appreciation of the centrality of rhetoric to Lutheran Baroque music - see, by way of random example http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa38...i_n9231900/pg_2 "Lutheran Germany...had a particular interest in rhetoric, namely that of a discipline most helpful in preaching the word...the understanding of the rhetoric of a text was expected of every musician, and that a rhetorically informed and intended realisation of the music was as important to the composer as it was to the performer."
But I don't avoid using the gorgeous new John Budgen Cornet/Sesquialtera when I play Bach plenum pieces at St Mary de Lode, Gloucester (the only mixture on the organ) or the Great Sesquialtera at Christ Church, Bristol, simply because they contain a tierce - indeed, as narrow scale Principals, they sound pretty "authentic", whatever that means! Likewise, I found uses for the Terzcimbal at Gloucester, besides cutting safety glass. Mind you, I really like the sound of the Trost chorus http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OfvHDh3TZ8E particularly with the pedal mutations (back to the Theorbe/Notre-Dame threads!).
On to tastier things: do you know Daniel Roth's disc of Bach from St Sulpice (Motette CD 12321)? Sublime. He could have used the classical Plein Jeu choruses there, with gentle reeds on the pedal, but takes a rather more imaginative approach in that cavernous acoustic. In the detailed liners notes, he says: "With the crescendo in the direction of the high tones of the principal chorus and since the reeds stops in the bass are loud and lose their intensity with the high tones, the addition of soft reed stops to the principal chorus enables a good balance of intensity between the deep and high tones. In Saint Sulpice, the contralto and tenor parts are stressed by the basson 8' of the Grand Choeur, the baryton 8' of the positive, the basson/hautbois of the recit. The bass is emphasized in the pedal by the excellent basson 16'". Thus Roth abandons an isolated doctrinaire approach to registration, but in order to serve the aesthetic of the music and to make the polyphony clear. The results, to my ears, are very beautiful.
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Now with those heavy, closed-toned Trombas, the job for a "binding-corroborating- equalizing"
Mixture is quite different.
First there is, comparatively, less harmonic development in the reed tone; second, as Pcnd
said, there is no, with such reed voicing, weakness in the treble related to the basses.
So in order to bind such things with the rest -mainly, a Diapason chorus which was intended
to follow Schulze's lines, with Quint Mixture or not, and a rather bright Full-Swell- you need
an "harmonics-providing machine".
An this was quite the reverse of Cavaillé-Coll's and Walcker's use of mutations on seperate ranks,
which were intended to "result", that is, to reinforce the foundation tone.
In this we see Arthur Harrison, along with Dixon and Casson, were no more "romantic", nor
even "late-romantic", but true post-romantic people.
In a modern organ you could have the ranks on seperate sliders, yes. But with the strenght
you need from them withy the Trombas, they would be of little use, unless enclosed.
Now if you suppress the Trombas, and leave the mutations alone then, you can voice
them at will, but we shall end up with nothing more forward-thinking than a 1950 Klais,
Steinmeyer or Gonzalez organ.
Pierre
This is why I get so depressed to play a Harrison which still has fat Trombas, but the Harmonics mixture has been tinkered with, or the flat 21st suppressed.
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And yet again this insinuation that attention to historical matters perforce leads to a dull performance. Why else did you include "bound by doctrine" in your last sentence?
Apologies: no such insinuation intended - in fact I believe that an understanding of historical styles of performance is essential, if only so that you can then make a choice to ignore them. I was just surprised by how irate contributors were getting about, inter alia, tierce mixtures! Like you, I try to hear the best in performances, but I am always suspicious of dogma - "this is how Bach must be played" and the like. But that's me grinding my own axe, I suppose...
Tierce Mixtures
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
Absolutely gorgeous colours. NB the first extract is Messiaen; the second is the Duruflé Fugue sur le Carillon des heures de la Cathedral du Soissons. Pity the last chord is chopped!