Ian Ball
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Posts posted by Ian Ball
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So soon!
She's already an organ widow...
but she loves the Night on a Bare Mountain bit right at the end of the Coch 1963 and thinks it would sound good on our wee house organ 
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Are you certain? It is not listed in the catalogue currently accessible on-line. The only symphonie is that which was actually written by Cochereau.
If the above link does not work, try this:
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/chantraine/CochereauA.html
If this is the case, I would be pleased to track it down, since I have liked this improvisation ever since I first heard it. A few years ago, DJB mentioned to me that John Scott Whiteley had transcribed it and intended to submit it for publication.
Indeed I'd be tempted to sell wife and kids to get hold of a good transcription of this, the best of the 2 improvised Coch symphonies on record. DJB once showed me JSW's handwritten transcription of the first movement, although there was an ongoing debate about the accuracy of the first chord
(which, understandably, JSW had struggled to capture). I too saw an advert for the whole thing in print and would love a copy.IFB
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The bit about Norman Cocker I am not sure about. I remember the old Harrison at the cathedral well, and whilst it was a very, very large instrument (100+ stops in a quite small building), it never lacked brightness.
MM
Indeed - I was being specific about Tuba Tune and the reg indications in the score.
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About Southwark, here is a link that might be interesting:
http://www.organrecitals.com/southwarkpistons.php
Very interesting discussion ! thanks and go on,
Pierre
Very interesting! And there we are - I was wrong viz a viz Sw Mixture
Although see Choir piston 8: 8+2 
Mind you, I rarely set 'Swell to Mixture & Oboe' myself, preferring the sound of either a mini full Sw or 88844(2)Ob&Cornopean to emerge before full Sw proper, when I'm accompanying.
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I can't speak for the old organ at Gloucester, but I would have thought that the great flexibility of the Oboe was especially useful in combination with octave and sub-octave couplers. With only a 4ft Principal and 8ft Oboe, the couplers enable that combination to "rise up" from the Swell; usually with the sub-octave first, then the octave coupler, and continuing the build-up, switching to 16ft reed and Mixture before drawing the enclosed artillery. That's more or less the standard "seamless" way of getting a crescendo, which can be further refined by coupling to the Great and balancing heavier foundations against the brightness of the Swell. Thus, the impression is one of crescendo rather than violent contrasts of tone-colour .
Absolutely - I learned the 'dark arts' from William Morgan on the fabulous Hill/HNB organ of Bolton Parish Church. There, the penultimate Sw piston was always 16 Fagotto, 8' flute, 4 & 2 principals plus super octave - nasty on some organs but just the most gorgeous mini full swell there, and perfect for coupling through to mf Ch and/or Gt combinations in psalms and other accompaniments. His crescendo was utterly seamless: the 'standard' alternation of manual additions, with Sw being shut each time unenclosed divisions had become louder than it, ready for the final roar.
Back to 'new' Gloucester: the addition of the Sw sub octave coupler (one of the additions so much maligned by the sanctimonious) has enabled the kind of use MM expounds above, hugely adding to its flexibility, particularly under the choir.
Vox raises valid points about neo-classical influences on 'traditional' cathedral registration, and we must define what we mean by 'old school' when so many of our teachers from the 60s and 70s would be appalled to see us registering Bach with 16,888,44,12th,2,17th,Mixt etc, when one stop at each pitch was de rigueur back then (even if it sounded stupid, as at the RFH). BUT, I do recall seeing several piston schemes from the late Victorian and Edwardian period where at least the Swell Mixture certainly came on before the reeds, and even where 8 + 2 was set on a Ch piston (Southwalk perhaps? Can't recall now). Perhaps it was during the 1920s and 30s when things went horizontal, perhaps due to American and/or theatre influence?
You mention Francis Jackson - certainly a magician of the highest order - but (as a footnote) it's worth noting the 'neo-classic' registration he uses on the famous Tuba Tune recording from York. Certainly not what Norman Cocker had in mind at the beginning (FJ turned in into a faux organo pleno), apart from the glorious Tuba, of course
IFB
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How peverse the Gloucester Sw 2' was designed not to work with the Swell Oboe!! Was it designed to work with any other stops of the division or was it just intended as a solo register...?
Well, it was just hearsay... that RD didn't like the 'Swell to Oboe' colour. In practice, 88442Ob or 842Ob at Glos certainly sounds
to my ears, and I tried to avoid it in psalms. The Oboe works with all the other 'fonds' and is refined enough to bring on very early in the build-up. It's a very pretty 2' too, which blends well with everything else, in particular the Nazard, Tierce and lower flutes. It is just bizarre that the Oboe doesn't blend with it. Perhaps an Oboe always needs a nice bright Fifteenth rather than anything flutier? -
I know that I haven't travelled anything like as widely in Europe as others here, but I think while soft fluework and some choruses abroad could readily do justice to Howells/Parry/Stanford/Vaughan Williams et al, I think it is with reeds that players will find difficulty. Members of this forum will remember what trouble Barry Jordan took to have a proper English Tuba for his wonderful new organ at Magdeburg, something virtually unknown outside the English-speaking world, but there are other rare reed effects necessary too.
One tradition over here is the concept of Oboes that blend, even subsume themselves into 8' and 4' principals. I remember being told that the voicer who was responsible for the tonal finishing at St.Paul's Cathedral when the four-manual Father Willis in the Chancel was being restored by Manders (?1977) had three separate attempts to get the Swell Oboe sufficiently smooth for the late Christopher Dearnley before he was happy with it.
The registration schemes referred to earlier as 'Dark Arts' quite often rely on a smooth (seriously-well-blending) Oboe. The build up, starting with strings, of course, adds other 8's (not always removing the Celeste in the early stages). 4' flutes may well be added before principals, but often before the Fifteenth would come the Swell Oboe. Therefore, when another 8' reed is added on the way towards Full Swell, reed tone is already part of the aural mix. Therefore, with a good swell-box one could go from Swell 888442Oboe (with or without Mixture or 16' flue) straight to the Full Swell Piston (shutting the box immediately as one did so) and there would be little appreciable difference downstairs, enabling the swell to be opened gradually over the next page or two of music, with the effect of greatly increased excitement as well as volume.
The Mixture was considered essential to Full Swell, as was (in particular) the 16' reed. Mind you, these mixtures were not particularly high pitched, a 2' would be the top rank from Treble C if not earlier.
Hope this tallies with other folks' method/memory!
Absolutely. I always have an Oboe on the Sw pistons before the 2', except on the new Glos organ, where the 2' was deliberately voiced NOT to work with the Oboe, I believe. Indeed, several romantic organs had their Swell Oboe removed in favour of some silly high-pitched thing, thus depriving the chorus of an essential foundation stop.
As we can hear from recordings of the old Gloucester organ, the Fifteenths were gloriously particularly bright Willis types, so rich in harmonics that a Mixture was hardly needed. The old Swell to 15th plus Oboe at Glos was a peerless sound.
As for using mixtures before the big reeds, surely Swell 8842ObMixt was the standard penultimate piston setting on traditional cathedral organs, even if there wasn't a tierce in the mixture? Does anyone know what Sumsion had set up at Glos?
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My wife and I have recently moved to Paris in connection with her job. Having now secured work for myself here, one of the other things that the ex-pat contact pays for is for me (somewhat unflatteringly referred to in the corporate bumpf as a "trailing spouse") to engage in some form of academic study. This allowance this has in fact been used by previous accompanying partners for a variety of, ahem, educational topics including golf lessons! Does any board member have any information as to who the best person to contact regarding lessons might be as I am interested in continuing my studies? Also, with regards to practice and such like, has anyone any idea as to whether there is a Parisian "organ society" as various Google searches have yielded "rien". I have made contact with one of the Anglican churches here though rehearsal time is very limited due to the fact that the church is in the basement of a residential block and the inhabitants complain about the noise of the organ especially in the evenings.
Any help most gratefully recieved,
Giles
Hi,
You could try Ned Tipton at the American Cathedral here or Fred Gramann at the American Church in Paris here. They are both delightful chaps who will be able to advise you further even if they're too busy to take you on as a pupil. Naji Hakim at La Trinité and Marie-Bernadette Dufourcet Hakim at Notre-Dame-des-Champs are also very friendly and I'm sure would point you in the right direction (perhaps one of their pupils) if they had full books.
Ian Ball
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Oh I believe in the occasional 1' stop. I recently added one (amongst a number of other extra stops) to a two rank extension organ, and (for occasional use only) it's great fun - piquant, sparkling, the whole 'fun' bit and no extra pipes needed in that case, just a modest amount of extra wiring.
But doesn't the dodgy winding always let these machines down, especially at that pitch? Mind you, even respectable 'straight' old dames like Salisbury suffer in that respect (where the Choir [organ] is truly dodgy).
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Yes, before you started on llamas, you were full of good advice.
Now I'm not entirely convinced that the rest of us should associate with you at all!
I am pretty disappointed, however, that my bright idea of adding something with only occasional use would still make sense. After all, I've got a specification of 131 speaking stops to fill; I wanted a Septieme somewhere on the job. I thought the Swell was a good place to put it - it could be added to the reeds and be coupled elsewhere on the instrument when required. The volume could be adjusted too, you see. Clever? Why, when I try to sort it out does it turn out to have no use? I am peeved over this one. I suppose I could turn it into a None. Another possibility would be a Mollterz - speaking D sharp when you play C. I've never heard one, but they seem popular on modernist German specs.
I only know two Septiemes, there's one at The London HQ of 'We-love-U-God' [Holy Trinity, Brompton] on the R&D that was originally built for St.Mark's North Audley Street. The Choir on that organ has a complete set of mutations on something like 6" wind. Effective, I thought*. The other is at St.Mary's Bury St.Edmunds, that one is useless. There must be a Septieme at Liverpool, but I've never wasted time trying it out since on the rare occasions I have sat down at that beast I have had a limited time and a definite job to do.
Well there's a rather spicy one at Gloucester, of course. Jolly useful it is too. But I know the G-word raises hackles....back to m'Shiraz. Actually, I don't think there is one at Liverpool (on its own at least, and if there ever was one in a Mixture you can bet it's been 'suppressed' by now).
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I played a toaster last night: a comprehensive 3-manual instrument in a prestigious public school in the South West. I would have loved it as a school boy - bowel-shattering 32s; shimmering strings, chiffy flutes, a 'cathedral' console; even a Tuba. These days, I wonder what possible educational use it could serve... Ah, 'console management' I thought (I'm a glass-half-full kinda guy)... until the organ simply conked out for half a second every time a pressed a general piston! I thought it was me at first, perhaps hitting the toe piston at a funny angle. But, no, every diminuendo or crescendo in Widor's 5th was marred by a microscopic black hole in the texture, while the organ decided what to do with its power supply, play the notes or change the stops.
Why?
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Thre is a recording of Derek Cantrell playing the organ of Manchester Cathedral, from the 60s/early 70s, though I coudn't swear to the fact that it is part of the 'GCO' series (at least one copy survives - it's in my loft). This disc could be the only opportunity left to hear this instrument's Tuba Magna (the one which inspired Norman Cocker), as the rank was displaced when the chancel console wes re-errected on the screen in 1979. The enclosed Orchestral Tuba that remains is, whilst a noble sound, IMHO nowhere nearly vulgar enough!!
Forgive me, but I had always understood Cocker's TT to have been inspired by the (civilised) tuba at Cork Cathedral, not the Manchester honker (which could be heard from platform 16 at Victoria Station). It was still an act of vandalism to have discarded it tho IMHO.
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Ok, I'll try and explain myself better!
When I mark a score "General 6" and then, perhaps, a few bars later "General 7", it's pretty obvious what's required.
If, say, I were just using a stepper and were to make a mistake and either not press the "Next" button when I should, or press it when I shouldn't, and not be quite aware of what's gone wrong, it's rather harder to rectify. At the next point at which the button needs pressing, should I press it once or twice? I would only know for a certainty if I'd also marked in the score the General I wanted to be on at that time, and would also have to read the number on the display in order to read what General I was presently on.
Ah, to qualify what I do: I mark a large friendly '+' sign on my score (or on the lovingly torn square of Post-it note) but write the general piston number beside it, then the memory level in superscript. I can then immediately check the digital display if something's gone wrong. I always ask my page turner to keep an eye on this too, just be sure. In 15-or-so years of encountering steppers, only once did I press 'next' twice by mistake. My assistant immediately spotted the error and leaped for the correct general. Annoyingly, this was in a somewhat high-profile Three Choirs Festival recital, although no-one seemed to notice the inappropriate sounds (well, it was on the Gloucester organ
) nor the panic-induced few bars of improvisation. I've never made that mistake since though!I still think steppers are an invaluable aid to registering romantic and modern music on a large instrument. Some commentators have cautioned against the 'kaleidoscopic' style of playing that steppers can engender, but as in all things, bad taste and self indulgence can spoil things if not kept in check. I believe, if used tastefully, they can increased the expressive potential of our instrument; make it less machine-like; save a huge amount of rehearsal time; and allow the player truly to 'orchestrate' the music. They can also faciliate the most long-breathed and subtle crescendo and diminuendo (by using 'back') for improvisation. At Glos we always reserved two levels for such a crescendo.
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Steppers every time for me please: quick and easy to use, and you're pressing the same toe stud or thumb piston every time. An unfamiliar instrument littered with generals adds considerably to rehearsal time, since you have to practise finding the right piston. Sequencers on the other hand (i.e. independent of the generals) are a nightmare: complicated and prone to accidents.
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Then there is the above post.
Pierre, to play a prelude and fugue by Bach two times slower than usually is not practicable - or desirable. I agree that some performers currently play Bach's music in a manner which seems to be too fast. However, to cut the speed in half is a huge difference. It would make Vierne's recorded performance of the 'little' E minor Prelude and Fugue sound very sprightly indeed.
I am also not sure that Bach would have expected his preludes and fugues to be played at such a speed and without any attempt at [French or Italian] lightness, but in a 'substantial' way. There is written evidence that Bach astounded and surprised his contemporaries with his playing. One writer (I cannot recall who at present) mentioned that he was able to play passages fluently with his feet which others had difficulty playing with their hands. Take, for example, the Fugue, in D major (BWV 532). I am aware that for many years, French players used to play this slowly ; Widor spoke in strong terms regarding the need to keep this fugue diginfied and un-hurried. However, in musical terms alone, surely the subject alone mitigates against this.
Tomorrow evening we are due to perform excerpts from The Passion According to Saint John. There are a number of movements in this (for example, one or two of the arias), in which the lightness of texture and the linear movement of the writing suggest to me the exact opposite of the type of performance Bach may have expected, as suggested in your post. Of course, I realise that a prelude and fugue written for the organ is not quite the same as an aria lifted from a setting of the Passion of Christ (and scored for orchestral instruments). I further realise that there were (and are) instruments upon which it would be difficult and un-rewarding to play Bach's organ music quickly, the action alone making this a thankless task.
However, was not Bach's music (and performance, from that which we do know) partly about pushing boundaries; of taking the commonly-held beliefs of the time and then proving them wrong? Did he not write in exactly the way he desired - and then demonstrate that it was possible to play in a way which many of his contemporaries had not thought to be possible?
I agree with this entirely. I take Pierre's point about the colourful organs of Sachsen and Thüringen, and the desirability for weight, but tempo is an elusive thing. As MM reminds us, Thomaskirche (and, for that matter the Nikolaikirche) have relatively dry acoustics, particularly when full, and the whole feel is considerably more intimate and human than that of a great gothic cathedral.
For the performer, the first thing that dictates tempo, as well as articulation, is the style and affekt of the music. It matters not whether it is for the organ, violin, oboe or harpsichord, to my mind. Surely the tempi Bach might have chosen for his organ works weren't vastly different from those suggested by other instrumental or vocal music written in the same styles. Granted, certain 'early music' bands arguably pushed tempi too fast during the 80s and 90s (driven perhaps by the recording industry's lust for something novel), and we've all had our fill of 'sewing machine' Bach from so-called 'international concert organists' (in haste to catch the next plane?) but the pendulum has swung back now, in some instances to speeds slower than those indulged by Beecham's generation. But the average 'tempo ordinario' passage (as Handel might describe it) actually varies little from period to modern instruments, in my experience. I know this is a generalisation, but you see my point.
Another consideration is that even post-renaissance music was arguably still governed by the natural world - our heartbeats (c. 60 MM), horses trotting (duple time) or cantering (triple time) etc. Such things are no different today. Let's remember too that even the English Edwardian (with his leathered diapasons and harmonics mixtures) were brisk, no-nonsense fellows. Their Bach, like their Elgar, didn't slouch. In my view, the allowances one makes for acoustic, action and voicing are actually in a fairly narrow band, otherwise the affekt of the music changes entirely.
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I agree, but surely you mean 'The Don'? Unless you mean the German for 'cathedral'...
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I agree. When a student I was urged to keep tempi proportional or equal in Bach's D major Prelude (532a) and Fantasia in G minor (542a), and even in some freer works, eg the 'big' Bruhns E minor. It never worked for me - one section was either too fast or (more usual) far too slow and lifeless.
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On whose authority is this assertion based?Tubas weren't intended to be played in chords! -
Has anyone here actually played it? That is the only real test.
I wonder whether the music desk is really higher than it would be on a British five-decker. Manuals on German organs are usually closer together than in Britain because there is not the tradition of having loads of thumb pistons like we do. Here it looks like the only thumb pistons are below Man. I. They are unobtrusive in the extreme, but you can just make out the numbers on the large-scale photo I linked to above (piston 1 is illuminated).
Not quite played it, but was shown it last November. As at Liverpool and St Paul's, the music desk slides down and remains down most of the time. The dials were therefore covered by the music desk when I was there. I'm surprised no one has commented on the lack of division labels on the stop jambs. The stop head lettering, albeit upper case, is small and tricky to read, although extremely chic! Minor quibbles, but relevant I feel in the context of this discussion.
However, a far deeper impression was left by the sound of this instrument: opulent without sounding effete, powerful without opacity; big reeds yet with a tutti dominated by deep, shag-pile mixtures of perfect clarity; and the biggest variety of flutes I have ever heard on a single instrument, from delicate gedacts to massive, cantabile harmonic flutes that would make Cavaillé-Coll weep. I know some commentators lament the 'loss' of the Ladegast-Sauer but the Eule is truly remarkable.
As for the console's potential incongruity in its wider setting: I found the startling 'Egyptian' (post-JSB) columns and ceiling far more at odds with this ancient building that the Porsche console.
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As regards nicest, I think that early 20C consoles of Hill take some beating. Threre's just a classiness about them that, for me at any rate, even Willis and Harison didn't quite manage. Here are a few NPOR links for fellow anoraks:
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/PSearch...N01512&no=2
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/PSearch...N01938&no=1
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/PSearch...N11754&no=2
Sadly, of the three organs pictured above, only the third is in use. The first was destroyed in an arson attack on the (redundant) building. The second is out of commission 'pending restoration'. A plug-in device accompanies the services and has done, as far as I am aware, for many years.
BTW, would anyone like to try and work what my younger, thinner and less grey self (picture taken Christmas 1986) is playing in the first link? Winner gets a pint at the first Board get-together that I'm able to attend
Wonderful to see these. Identical (although a tad bigger) than my sorely missed little gem at St Mark's Kingsholm, Gloucester (tho the Pentecostal congregation now using the place occasionally blow some air through it).
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Perhaps with Barbara Dennerlein as the "star in the reasonably priced car"?
JC
I can just imagine the interview with a drooling Clarkson... it'd be like Ellen Macarthur and Helen Mirren rolled into one
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The 'Porsche' console looks beautiful, ergonomically pleasing and very comfortable. I look forward to watching Jeremy Clarkson test-drive it on the new season's Top Gear.
More Hammond's league, I think. Clarkson's not a Porsche fan
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For sheer originality and space-age design, the Porsche-studio designed console (Stuttgart?) takes some beating. It really is a wonderfully imaginitaive approach to aesthetics and ergonomics.
MM
It's the Nickolaikirche, Leipzig (one of JSB's churches). It is a truly stunning yet simple console see here and here
For the perfect combination of luxury and elegance, I love Fisk's horseshoe consoles, such as at St James's, Richmond, VA. Can't find any close-ups on the web but Rice University is similar (tho bigger).
I agree with all above about HN&B consoles - I spent my formative years at Bolton Parish Church, where the Hill/HNB has a beautifully comfortable console of similar vintage to Selby Abbey.
IFB
but she loves the Night on a Bare Mountain bit right at the end of the Coch 1963 and thinks it would sound good on our wee house organ 
(which, understandably, JSW had struggled to capture). I too saw an advert for the whole thing in print and would love a copy.
Although see Choir piston 8: 8+2 
) nor the panic-induced few bars of improvisation. I've never made that mistake since though!
Municipal Organs Under Threat
in General discussion
Posted
It was indeed Noel Rawsthorne. I gave one of the inaugural recitals in 1985 and found it (then) the most thrilling organ I'd played. But you're right, the acoustic is dessicating and the sound rather brittle. Another 5 years of pendulum swing would have helped (along with a slightly bigger budget). It is so nearly right, but with lack of colour and gravitas in the pedals, and a so-called Cavaille-Coll Swell missing an 8' Hautbois, it's just not quite all there. Great shame it's under used. It has never really been promoted (save a notable and noble effort by David Titterington in the early 90s) after a poor choice for Borough Organist was made once the initial fanfares were over.
A well organised outreach and education programme (a la Bridgwater and Symphony Halls) would/could work wonders there, but there does not appear to be the vision.
I applied to make a recording there to mark the 20th anniversary in 2005 but the authorities simply didn't get back after some considerable effort on my part. Great shame. It's very well made and can sound wonderful if you've muscle enough to couple up and if enough chairs have been removed.
It might also be the case that the 'authorities' there simply don't appreciate what they have. Cheltenham Town Hall is another case in point (wonderful Rolls Royce of an Edwardian classic), the tuner constantly having to battle with demands to use the organ case as a broom cupboard!
IFB