Ian Ball
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Posts posted by Ian Ball
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I've heard similar things said about César Franck. I think it's a bit of an urban myth. Anyone skilful enough to win Premier Prix d'Orgue at the Conservatoire (and having been a pupil of Dupré) must have been at least "secure" downstairs. Besides, there are plenty of tricky pedal parts in his organ works.
'Innate' is surely right - it is extremely unlikely that there was any explicit requirement of the Maitre to play repertoire.
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Apologies for going back to Gloucester, but I had the pleasure of playing it for a visiting choir evensong last weekend. I've not encountered it before and found it to be one of the most satisfying and musical English organs I have ever played. Yes it doesn't have all the usual English cathedral organ sonic toys, but what it does have is so musical and beautiful and works so well that you don't really want anything else.
Leave it alone, please - Downes got this one absolutely right.
Stewart Taylor
Glad you liked it (the cheque's in the post
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OW! My home-made Chamade is a thing of beauty - musically speaking.
In my visitor's book I have a comment by no less an authority than the great Mr.Briggs to the effect that if those pipes ever went missing, I would know where to start looking for them.
Hehe
I wouldn't expect anything less, Paul! As is the Washington chamade IMHO. Look forward to hearing them both one of these days. Best wishes, Ian -
Is there really more than one stop being used here, as the notes suggest? I realise that the notes mention the Trompette en chamade (which is on the Solo), but I am wondering whether the stop being used is actually the Great Posthorn. That was certainly a very brazen (and very loud) stop - possibly more so than the one in the video (but it was a long time ago - memory dims with time...)
I agree - I can't really hear any difference around 1'40". Sounds like all on one chamade, or plus a few chorus reeds coupled through for 'fatness'. I imagine Cynic's chamades have a similarly shattering effect in their domestic surroundings!
Must get hold of DP's recording (at SJD, not Hull!). -
Here's a pretty hair-raising example. Whilst there might be small boys out there who want to learn the organ because they have ambitions to play trios sonatas and tierces en tailles, this kind of thing is the reason I took it up!
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So why couldn't they do the same with classical organ-actions?
I know what you mean (try the Solo and Choir divisions at Bristol Cathedral!). Mind you, my little 3 man 1907 Hill in Gloucester has great repetition and is lightening fast. Its leatherwork was last restored in the mid-50s. I also remember the large 3 man Nicholson now in Portsmouth Cathedral had excellent old Jardine pneumatics when it lived in Holy Trinity, Bolton.
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Could anyone recommend any particular recordings of Franck?
Without hesitation I would recommend Daniel Roth on Motette. One can actually forget it's organ music and hear chamber ensemble, piano or symphony orchestra. I realise that some recent scholarship suggests Franck's tempi were actually significantly faster than represented by the two traditions of received wisdom (one from Tournemire via Langlais, the other through Guilmant and Dupré), but Roth's playing is just so opulent, expressive and mature. He also matches date of composition to period of organ.
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The organ was built prior to WW I, and kept on (many!) shelves during the war.
It was finally erected 1922 or 23 (?)
Pierre
I would like to see evidence that these mixtures were actually made: their composition is so radically different from what has been there since at least WWII (and see Classic-Car-Man's latest post in the original discussion in the 'General' forum).
Interesting to read your views about playing Bach in a "false North German way". I was re-reading Harald Vogel's useful contribution to Stauffer & May only this morning. He explores this very point (sadly all too briefly) and makes some interesting observations about Bach's apparently non-conformist attitude towards the plenum (made possible by the voicing of Thuringian organs), and the sheer variety of plena available on North German instruments. He's adamant that North German mixtures were not built for polyphony (c.v. John Brombaugh's comments on Silbermann's French influenced Mixtures in the following chapter). Well worth a read if, like me, it's a good 20 years since your last visit to this excellent book!
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Does anyone have an opinion on the Briggs 'Sortie' that concluded the Kings service?
It would have been nice to hear it!
It wasn't included in the Christmas Eve broadcast, I missed the R3 repeat and it was omitted from the 'listen again' recording. I should have gone to Bristol Cathedral - it went down well there I understand. -
It certainly IS correct: I have the original 1922 contract before me and they are all there!
David Wyld
My mistake - apologies. I was reading from the details for the 1940 console. It would indeed be interesting to learn when the changes were made. What a golden sound it would have made (not that the present tutti doesn't shine, but there's a definite quint mixture bias!).
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.....With this stunning Grand chorus structure, maybe ?
GREAT
Mixture 5r: 3 1/5', 2 2/3', 1 3/5', 1 1/3', 1'
Sesquialtera 5r: 1 1/3', 1 1/7', 1', 2/3', 1/2'
CHOIR
Dulciana Mixture 5r: 3 1/5', 2 2/3', 1 3/5', 1 1/3', 1'
SWELL
Lieblich Mixture 3r: 1 3/5', 1 1/3', 1'
Full Mixture 5r: 2 2/3', 1 3/5', 1 1/3', 1 1/7', 1'
SOLO
Cornet de Violes 3r: 3 1/5', 2 2/3', 2'
ECHO
Harmonica aetherea: 3 1/5', 2 2/3', 2'
PEDAL
Mixture 3r: 3 1/5', 2 2/3', 2 2/7'
Fourniture: 2 2/3', 2 2/7', 2', 1 1/3', 1'
(The Pedal's Mixtures differ only by the flat 21 firsts from the manuals, but there are
of course separate, deeper mutation ranks).
Pierre:)
:)If only! You are teasing, aren't you Pierre? This certainly isn't the present scheme (or even the published 'original' spec).
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And it launched a process leading towards Max Reger (sooooo close to Bach!).
Pierre
Much as I (and other organists) enjoy Reger's music, those non-organist musicians who have actually heard of him hardly regard him worthy of the premier league. Bach's reputation is somewhat different!
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My first experience of a pipe organ was as a chorister at All Souls' with St James' Church, Bolton. A stunning, red brick, 1000-seater hall church designed by Paley & Austen, the organ was built by Ike Abbott c. 1879. Although only a two-manual instrument, it filled the church and shook the fine wooden choir stalls. The organ was cleaned and restored in the early 1980s by Peter Wood (ex-Wood Wordsworth). Sadly the church was declared redundant in the mid-eighties and it still sits, empty although not entirely unloved. The local community (now almost exclusively Muslim) has begun a consultation exercise about the building's possible future use and, as far as I know, the organ remains in situ (see here and wonderful 360 degree shots here and here). The church has a fine peal of bells too, including the heaviest tenor bell in the area. Some interesting and unusual photos here too, including one shot of the Great organ stop mechanism, and the fabulous view of the nave roof from the ringers' gallery. It still grieves me that this church is redundant. My earliest musical memories were formed there: great Diocesan and RSCM choral festivals, organ recitals, the fine choir; later on, freezing fingers from 3 hours' practice every Saturday morning.
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And I cannot resist this: a Cornet 'of 16ft' would contain these pitches - a Cornet of 8ft. would not, Ian.
Indeed - this I've known since I began learning that repertoire as a sixth former. It's perfectly acceptable to include a 16' Bourdon and associated cornet décomposé ranks in a Grand Jeu, depending on context, style and the performer's bon goût.
Regarding your previous post, N.-D. also had these pitches. DJB spent a lot of time talking about this organ - I have no recollection of him ever mentioning the H&H/Downes instrument at the RFH!With respect Sean (and I don't intend this as one-upmanship) I worked with David every day for four years and he certainly did consider, at the planning stage, what Downes might have made of the additions and used the RFH pedal mutations (inter alia) as justification. Of course N-D is a huge influnce on DJB, and Vierne's "muster of double basses" is exactly what we felt the organ needed, but David's not quite as blinkered as some people think, as you know yourself.
Anyway, as you observe, beauty is in the eye of a beholder, true. Yet there are many of us who are interested in what is 'under the bonnet', as it were - in either sense.My fiancée will gladly confirm my healthy interest in both
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Aren't 5 1/3 and 3 1/5 part of the Cornet, albeit at 16' pitch? A Bourdon 16' is an optional part of the Grand Jeu, so why not the mutations in that series?
Actually, I have a strong suspicion the French really couldn't care less. Naji Hakim was once extolling the beauty of the VII rank Sacré-Cœur Cornet: "SEVEN ranks?" I asked, as only an English organ bore could. "What are the pitches?" I enquired. "I have no idea!" came the response. "When you see a beautiful woman, you do not ask "what is it that makes her beautiful?" do you???" he replied, bored to the core.
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Pierre, I would be interested to see evidence for your statement regarding the use of mutations at 5 1/3 and 3 1/5 in a Grand Jeu. Dom Bédos states that for the Grand Jeu, one should employ the 'cornet, prestant and all the trompettes and clairons of the grand orgue'.
Aren't 5 1/3 and 3 1/5 part of the Cornet, albeit at 16' pitch? A Bourdon 16' is an optional part of the Grand Jeu, so why not the mutations in that series?
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Not quite - the Pedal Septerz at the RFH consists of 17-21, or 3 1/5 and 2 2/7. It was originally to have been 6 2/5 and 4 4/7, but (possibly through lack of funds) was altered at a later date.
Hehe
and I can't resist this: hence our justification for their addition at Gloster! -
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That must have been the folding one he took with him when he went to Bohemia with Prince Leopold.
I knew it was really a giant serving tray disguised as a musical instrument! Who'd be an organ-playing servant?
MM
Saw something similar in the Leipzig University Museum of Musical Instruments (you MUST go) - the keyboard was split into three separate sections; each folded, not unlike a folding portable computer keyboard!
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Bach doesn't drop the flutes when the tutti is playing...
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How many flutes could he hold or play at once?
I can manage three flutes of champagne in one hand and a tutti-frutti in the other.
Is this a record?
MM
I expect the flutes, tankards, turkish coffee cups and steins were lined up by admiring punters all across the top of his harpsichord....
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Mistake corrected with my apologies, Mr Ball!
Pierre
No worries Pierre! Thank you.
You mention the "Engchor-Weitchor rule", I presume this goes hand-in-hand with the 'aequalverbot'? I have always added at least 8' flutes to a principal chorus (except perhaps on a high-romantic Harrison, where it rarely makes any difference!). It's interesting that one can of course play, for example, the Thomaskirche Bach-orgel as a child of the 60s - straight line vertical chorus, no tierces etc - and it sounds pretty nasty, or you can do as Ullrich Böhme does and play it 'generously'
I know which sound I prefer... At Altenburg or Naumburg it makes an even bigger difference.It's good to see a comparison between the sound of orchestra and organ too - such a distinctive sound the Bach orchestra, with flutes, oboes, bassoons, trumpets and horns all vying for supremacy with the strings, and all so densely harmonised (an 18th century Glenn Miller). A flippant point I know, but Bach doesn't drop the flutes when the tutti is playing... And before anyone remarks that hand-blown baroque organs wouldn't have enough wind, that's simply nonsense. We're talking mid-18th century, not mid-15th!
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"ake a look at the organ of the Royal Festival Hall of 1954 (admittedly not a strictly neo-baroque organ with tracker action), and you will find on the pedals the 10.2/3, 5.1/3 and a 2 rank Septerz of 1.3/5 and 1.1/7., and on the Great a 5.1/3 rank among other things. The hall may have lacked the acoustic to make this effective, but these ranks were there nontheless."
(Quote)
To me this RFH organ is a "néo-classique" one, to be compared with Klais or Gonzalez
of the same period, not a neo-baroque also.
I agree with Mr Bell; the discovery of the central german 18th century organs provoked
a complete change in our minds, at least among organ historians...
Whether Bach ever played with 8-4-2-Mixtur-Scharff (or Zymbel), all principal and no tierce ranks,
and a Pedal reed, is quite unsure !
Even a rather conservative Silbermann already had broken the Engchor-Weitchor rule, while I am
today convinced Tierce Mixtures belong to Bach's music like the Hautbois to César Franck's.
When you hear Bach played at Angermünde (J. Wagner), when the Scharff with 4/5' is added, you
are reminded in a nanosecond of the typical tones of the Cantates orchestra. And you immediately
say: "Gee, that's it"!
The dissepearance of the Iron curtain allowed us to discover some little things like that. We could
go on with the leathered shallots (why german baroque reeds never rattle...), the borrowings, the
many 8' etc. We know today a Walcker organ like that one in Mulhouse (halas....Neo-baroquized!)
was actually closer to Bach's music requirements than many "Bach-organs" of the 20th century.
Pierre
Love the Franck analogy! And it's 'Ball' (singular) not 'Bell', although I am used to people confusing me with ex-Mander's Ian Bell...especially since he advised on the Gloucester rebuild!
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I do find all this fascinating and the Mulhouse St-Stefan spec looks quite delicious. This debate does present those of us educated in the UK during the last 40 years with a dilemma. We all understood that 'Organo Pleno' meant manual choruses to quint mixture; pedal to mixture (it being a Werkprinzip organ, obviously!) plus light 16 reed (making 'authentic' Bach impossible on many English organs). However, the recent expansion of our understanding of the Sachsen/Thüringen organ comes as quite a surprise to many, likewise the close family resemblance between the sound of 18th century organ and its beefier 19th century descendant.
For my part I am relieved, since I have always felt it a shame to omit manual reeds and tierce mixtures in the 'great' works of JSB, and having recently immersed myself in things Middle German, I adore the organs' distinctive and tangy choruses.
By the way, may I canvass learned colleagues' opinion of the Woehl 'Bach' organ at the Thomaskirche, Leipzig? I understand some people have strong views about it. It sounded utterly beautiful when I visited and it is supposed to be an out-and-out Middle German design. It was interesting to hear what brightness there is at the top of the sound being quickly absorbed by bodies in a full church. The tutti is beautifully cohesive, complex and exciting, underpinned by a nice fat 32' reed; the individual registers are delightful too. (Mind you, Mendelssohn and Reger on the Sauer blew my mind! Like being a kid on Christmas Eve..., and I never thought I'd ever say that about Mendelssohn!!
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I'm confused. If "a guy's gotta earn a living".. why for the love of God become a church organist?!!!
Because Noel Gallagher acheived fame and fortune first... Bedders will catch him up (or Richard Strauss at least).
But you're right, I'm earning more in my second year as a lawyer than in my last as a professional musician
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Oh - OK; it was just that you wrote:
'It's been fun working with him there for the Advent and Christmas Carol Services.'
I thought that it was probably a little early.
Indeed. 'Fun' was the point, not dates - obviously. It's not Christmas yet. But we're working on it...
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I wouldn't expect anything less, Paul! As is the Washington chamade IMHO. Look forward to hearing them both one of these days. Best wishes, Ian
Must get hold of DP's recording (at SJD, not Hull!).
It wasn't included in the Christmas Eve broadcast, I missed the R3 repeat and it was omitted from the 'listen again' recording. I should have gone to Bristol Cathedral - it went down well there I understand.
and I can't resist this: hence our justification for their addition at Gloster!
The Bishop Organ Of Tokyo
in The Organ
Posted
Dodgy video of the Tokyo Bishop: YouTube