Adnosad
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Posts posted by Adnosad
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On 27/01/2022 at 23:02, John Robinson said:
As an atheist, I rarely attend services and even then only if there is a recital at the end. Sorry!
However, I have found exactly the same thing and mentioned here such 'animated conversation of congregation members' at York Minster's Nine Lessons and Carols in December last year.It is very true that the majority of Brits seem to be indifferent to organ music which is why, no doubt, so many organs in this country are either being ditched or, if they are lucky, sold on to locations in Europe. In fact, it has often puzzled me: why only us and not other European countries?
We seem to have touched upon aspects of this topic before methinks. Bottom line is organ music and everything attached to it is regarded by the majority to be niche and geeky. About 0.1 o/0 of the entire nation is even remotely interested in this specialised genre. Incumbents do not in the main like these wretched noisy,expensive machines, and even less the individuals who play them.
So far as suggestions for making " light organ music " more available; probably " Classic FM for Organs " , well, send in your suggestions on the back of a postage stamp.
I will also reiterate what I have previously thought on this issue, namely the worst location for an organ is in an ecclesiastical pile , but for historic reasons this is the way it has always been done, something going back to images of virtuous looking ladies wearing pointy hats and white gowns playing an " organ ".
To the average church audience an organ is merely a hymn accompanying machine. They would be just as happy to an accompaniment of penny whistles and pan lids.
So far as voluntaries go the average audience just prefer a chat. There is no escape from this prevailing attitude but since we live in a supposedly free country we can all do what we like , where we like, and as loudly as it necessitates so one just buttons ones lip and carries on smiling!
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All most interesting. Suggestion:- 1) Turn heating down to minimum .
2) Wear extra clothing.
3) Reduce length of services
That`s pretty much the appliance of science to the matter.
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3 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
Lord Kelvin once said that "when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind".
I therefore hope that the Church will not implement these sorts of rather expensive change without knowledge of what it will do in terms of real, quantified energy savings. The organ is actually a good starting point for this kind of discussion since it illustrates some of the issues involved. A small single-phase single-fan organ blower might consume 1.5 kilowatts of electrical power, about the same as two small 'Henry' vacuum cleaners, meaning that the electrical energy consumed during a church service lasting an hour and a half will be 2.25 kilowatt hours (kWh) - energy equals power multiplied by time. This figure assumes the blower would be switched on all the time during the service. What matters here is the energy figure rather than power, because all of this except for the utterly negligible fraction which is converted into sound will get turned into heat (and so will the sound waves once they have whizzed past our ears). All energy eventually ends up as heat, which is the most degenerate form of energy. The blower motor energy will be completely wasted, because in the last analysis it will all percolate into the atmosphere outside the church regardless of how much carpeting and roof insulation, etc, it has, and therefore contribute to the ultimate heat-death of the Universe (Kelvin again), of which the more immediate climate change problems on our puny planet are but a harbinger of things to come. Insulation will not prevent the energy loss but merely slow it down, meaning that we might stay a bit warmer during the service but the church will still get just as cold a day or two later once the heating (and organ blower) have been turned off. But we might use less energy in getting the church up to temperature if the insulation is good, which is therefore a Good Thing. Nevertheless, having an organ blower switched on, like a fan heater at home, reminds us uncomfortably of the issues involved.
There are lots of energy performance firms out there who ought to be roped in to provide quantitative guidance to dioceses on this matter. These are the sorts of firm which issue EPC certificates when you are selling your home. I am not saying this won't happen, merely that it's important to get specialist advice rather than just having individual bishops and PCCs wave their collective fingers in the air and say "let's put down a carpet or two to keep our feet warm and show the media that we are doing our bit". The issues are more complex and important than that. Global warming is serious stuff, and it's with us now. It's applied thermodynamics in action with a vengeance, and Kelvin invented a lot of this.
Interesting points made here. Environmental issues caused by organ blowers? Simple solution - just go digital - though the potential problem of chips overheating could be yet another issue.
The problem could be resolved,in part at least, by redirecting some of the hot air which is spouted from the podiums in these institutions.
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10 hours ago, John Robinson said:
Cushions? Carpets?
Aren't we all forgetting the organ?!Of course not .I feel a degree of semi-certainty that the plan will include padded organ benches as well as the keys, stopknobs, pedals and other paraphenalia in order to keep the poor player warm. The organists well being is, as always , of prime concern to incumbents and their Committees of Pot Dogs.
Generally, I feel, these plans will be gratefully appreciated by those sections of church audiences who enjoy spending their time in church having a cozy snooze and a good chat. Why not provide hot drink dispensers ,comfort blankets etc. This is the way forward to boost dwindling attendance in these hallowed places; true Christian comfort in fact under the guise of taking " global factors " into consideration.
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On 21/01/2022 at 12:39, Barry Oakley said:
It must have been in the late 1980’s, around the time Sheffield Cathedral’s Mander pipe organ was decommissioned, and when the Copeman Hart electronic (since replaced by a Phoenix digital organ), was being installed. I visited the cathedral at the time Ernie Hart was sitting on the organ bench with a laptop computer and appeared to doing some regulating. I stood not far from the console and listened for quite some time. Whereupon I was surprised and aghast when in so many words EH told me to Pee-off. I’m not sure if it was the result of a hangover or he had complete disregard for public relations.
Well that was a nice little anecdote for an obit. Would you happen to have any more of a similar nature that you might like to share with forum members,friends, and family ?
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Apparently he had not been too well for some time.
He certainly had a very productive and satisfying life. Good to know that his work and name is carrying on and developing thanks to Keith Harrington.
Some marvellous digital creations of a musical nature in the otherwise somewhat soulless world of technology which exists between 0 & 1 !
Here`s a scotch, or three, to him,
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On 19/01/2022 at 09:49, madorganist said:
Somewhere out in the ether ( maybe in the depths of this forum ? ) a dissertation can be found which chronicles the demise of R&D. The author appears to have had remarkable access to various individuals, accounts and company records.
My recollection of the conclusion was that the organ building side of the business was turning a profit, whilst everything else was haemorrhaging money. The organ building part of the business was effectively bled dry , with the (one of?) final death knell being the loss of a major contract in Italy (?)
Thank you very much for your archaeological work in extracting this piece on R &D.
Only had time to give it a skim but it all looks most interesting.
One addition to a previous comment I made re` R & D can anyone confirm a story I heard many centuries ago that the console for Liverpool Cathedral was actually exhibited in a shop window in Liverpool. Don`t know if Willis actually had a retail outlet in Liverpool city centre but Rushworths certainly did.
The two firms were in premises on Gt. George St, virtually backing onto each other. Maybe they had an agreement?
One last boring bang on - Their premises on Queen Anne St. I think still has the marvellous Art Deco tiles and joinery in the office area . Saw this a few years ago, presume Willis will have left that in situ?
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Encouraging to read about the work carried out on the cathedral. been on my list of " musts " for years but not had the chance to get there as yet. the design both internally and externally is superb so I won`t witter on about that. The exterior somewhat resembles that of St. Pauls Stoneycroft in several respects ( Wikipaedia )
Just dusted down some vinyl of Barry Rose recorded in `74 and the organ sounds pdg, about a 4 second reverb so not bad even then; mind you the recording was done by Culverhouse so one would expect it to be of high quality.
From what I recall R&D`s work was on the whole pretty solid, reliable, and good. Chester stands out pretty well as one of the instruments they worked on.
Never really found out what happened to the firm. Heard that Alistair R just closed up shop,destroyed the records and Willis bought the building; which is worth a mention in its own right as the original business carried out there was carriage building. Even today on the exterior one can still see tombstone like signs carved out of granite proclaiming their line of business which includes " broughams, wedding, and funeral carriages and ancilliary furnishings ". Quite quaint really. Hey - ho.
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Taking current announcements from the media I do not think there will be much junketing for this " forthcoming event "
If I were to select a fitting contribution it would be Sonata on the 94th.
Amen.
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1 hour ago, S_L said:
In the spirit of the board - 104 actually!!!
Better still. Maths never my strong point.
Heard The Great Man a few years ago at Liverpool Met. Brilliant recital as I remember.
1 hour ago, Barry Oakley said:As I am, as well as a great many others, it's sad to learn of the death of Dr Francis Jackson at the age of 104. I shall never forget the privilege of turning the music for him when he gave a recital on what is now the Hull Minster organ during the 1950's. No doubt York Minster will honour him with an unforgettable occasion.
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Bowled out for 103. Pretty good score really.
Will dig out the GCO vinyl and blast Willans IP&F at 11; helped along by a scotch or three.
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For heavens sake come on, Wakey - Wakey out there. Surely out of 130 views re` this problem surely there must be SOMEONE out there who can identify this fault and its possible rectification?
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I think you could be onto the source of the problem in mentioning the possibility of a NRV.
If there is any flexible tubing on the instrument, which I think there will be, try replacing it. The pipe may well appear to be in good condition from the exterior but with age the inner wall can deteriorate and cause a blockage. Downward pressure you say appears to operate the mechanism but on the return there is little if none.
I actually experienced a similar problem, not on an organ but a car disc brake. The disc would overheat as a result of not freeing off. I spent many happy hours dismantling/reassembling the said part to no effect. For some reason I decided to look at the hydraulic connecting line and upon persuading off a heavily corroded connecting clip I found that the accumulating rust which had built up behind it over the years had actually succeeded in constricting the flow of fluid. Pressure being greater on the application of the brake than the release of the same.
This may not be the case on your instrument but it just crossed my mind that it just might be something similar.
Just a suggestion anyway. I am no expert.
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6 hours ago, Vox Humana said:
Not mine, I fear. I wish it was! It's already fairly common parlance. Even the Abbey's own Twitter feed is @wabbey.
And there was me thinking of you penning the moniker! Never mind. Needless to say you have probably guessed, correctly, that I do not bother with " Twitter " or that other media platform, what`s -its-name? Ah yes - " Facebook ".
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1 hour ago, Vox Humana said:
I guess that would be true of Goss and Martin. McKie's knighthood was a personal gift of the queen in her coronation honours; he had previously played her wedding. But some of these were certainly more than 'just an organist'. Stainer, in particular, was so much more: a significant academic and instrumental in guiding government policy on music education. Marchant was principal of the Royal Academy of Music. Bullock resigned from the Wabbey during the war to become an academic in Scotland and was president of the ISM (and became principal of the RCM just after he was knighted), so, again, more than just an organist.
Just have to comment upon your most marvellous descriptive name for that vast French/Gothic pile in London, now to be referred to as as " The Wabbey. " This new term of reference could now be introduced into common parlance! It certainly appeals to my somewhat distorted/exotic sense of humour
Anyway, to get back on topic, whatever the thoughts on this matter, we are still clinging on in quiet English desperation to a system devised by the Dear Conqueror of These Fair Islands.
One lives in eternal hope that when the inevitability of a new monarch arises (! ) there will be a sweeping out of the lumber room, but I fear this time-stained system will remain in perpetuity; in fact it will probably descend even further into sycophancy, if that is possible.
Meanwhile, marvellous music will continue to be written and performed by dedicated and talented people of all genres, most of whom more than likely do not occupy their spare thoughts with " I wonder what I might get for this ? Three hearty cheers for The Pleasure Principle.
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Since we are continually having it banged into our faces that " we are a fair and equal society, " surely it would be better if this totally antediluvian shebang was consigned to its rightful place - the incinerator?
In the real world though, this system still grinds on, and so in a way it does reflect the attitudes/tastes/priorities ,whatever, of society at large, and if these individuals are from the world of finance, sport ,entertainment , politics etc. Well, so be it.
As has been stated, the individuals for these gongs are put forward and awards are made on that somewhat dubious factor called " merit". Question being, what exactly constitutes merit? Answer, being in the wider public eye, apparently!
I somehow detect a certain level of good old fashioned snobbery and elitism here with regards as to who is , or more to the point who isn`t, suitable for being awarded a gong.
Put more simply, to qualify, I`m afraid one has to be able to prove the worth of the proposed recipient, whatever the criteria and not merely by the fact one may have belted out hymn tunes for x number of years in a cold and draughty building for the benefit of a minority of the public.
A Wonderful New Year To One And All
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Bit unconventional for many of the stuffy aficianados I would suspect but IMHO this design is quite visually appealing, but I do rather appreciate industrial/scrapyard art . This instrument could look rather like the workings of a brewery - but how wonderful!
I always think it a bit sad really that the craftsmens art is covered by a cover,or box, or some similar, just for the purpose of aesthetics. Think this attitude of mine stems from seeing the " open air " instrument in Tewkesbury when I was very small.
Even computers in the days when they were installed in those awful dull cream boxs` took on an artistic lease of life when years later they were housed in clear acetate housings so one could see the works.
Even my grandfather clock irks me somewhat with its mantle covering the recently restored clockwork. Think I will remove it!
With regards to the ability of these pipes to sound, well I am no expert here but I think my caveman knowledge of acoustics and physics extends to the fact that if you have a pipe with a clear airway and you blow into one end of it, it will sound at the other. Many organs have pipes mitred to fit awkward spaces.
I know I sound like William Morris banging on here so, Seasons Greetings to One And All.
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1 hour ago, Dafydd y Garreg Wen said:
Leaving aside the question of island mentality, I do wonder why people like to describe Great Britain as “little” island. As islands go, it’s on the large side: there are only eight larger islands in earth.
Whilst I appreciate your geographical knowledge I do wish to reiterate that the whole substance of my comment, pertains to that " of our island mentality " with specific regards to our attitudes, which in the main, remain Anglo-Saxon.
Seasons Wishes Yo One and All
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5 hours ago, Peter Allison said:
A friend (who shall remain nameless) made good intentioned inquiries about using the organ to make a recording, with a famous and distinguished organist. He made demo recordings with the current DOM, BUT, been a fledgling recording outfit, he had to turn it down, as they were asking for £3K for the hire... he then went on to make a recording of the same material and organist at a RC cathedral in Portugal, where they were only to happy to accommodate him, more or less free. He obviously made a hefty donation to the church
And a pretty damm fine recording it is too1
In this flyblown little island, despite conquering most of the globe, we still have managed to retain an essentially island mentality and this can surface as evidence when " private little members clubs " experience the real world knocking on their doors.
One of our finest features, being a dog in a manger to use the eternal metaphor.
Seasons Greetings to One and All - It will soon be over :)
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Q E D m`lud.
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20 hours ago, John Furse said:
One million seems, in fact is, a huge sum. However, how much would it cost to build a similar instrument from scratch ?
As we all know, the advantage of an organ is that it can, within reason, be almost eternally renewed. How long do most of us keep our cars, washing machines, etc. ?
In some ways, therefore, £1M is a reasonable amount for what will be done. This work is highly-skilled and labour-intensive in the extreme.
When complete, this organ will (should) provide excellent service for another half-century, and more. This equates to £20,000 p.a. The highest paid player at Coventry City F.C. is paid this every fortnight ! He is 22.
Let us hope that this football club will play its part, not just on the field, but in this iconic building, by contributing to the rebuild.
Expressed another way; if one pro ratas the cost it does not seem to be quite such a good investment of capital. Especially when one includes essential maintenance etc into the equation.
I know this is a somewhat crazy way of looking at the matter of costing and running one of these noble monsters. One might suggest that in order to get one`s money`s worth the instrument would have to be played for several hours each day, thereby increasing costs due to wear and tear!
An intractable situation really, especially since the buildings in which they are located are closed for the majority of the time. When, for example, was the last time you can recall going into one of these establishments and hearing the instrument being played, other than for a scheduled recital or service, or the odd matching or despatching?
Despite my appearing to be a total bore with regards to this matter I reiterate my remaining support for these pieces of machinery. The economic viability still remains the dominant factor.
Finally, with regards to Coventry, well, despite whatever these soccer players ( and other bladder kickers ) may be paid, I do not think that they come within this remit somehow. What percentage of the population is actually interested in organs and all that goes with them? Answer in all honesty - precious few, so why should they be asked to contribute?
TAXI !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I wish Coventry every success with what will be a fraught filled venture. Liverpool have recently " completed" their restoration but, they are out with the begging bowl for further work to be done
Once again the old adage " an organ is the most expensive form of noise " comes to the forefront here. In all honesty how can it really be justified in expending such huge sums on an item which, let`s be perfectly honest, remains largely unused in a locked building ; all the more due to the current situation which shows little sign of abating.
Before the instruments of torture are laid out before me let me reiterate as I have stated here on prior posts I am actually a lover of all matters mechanical, musical or otherwise ..............but.............??
Move forward to the next sixty years and will our successors be likely to shell out for these restorations? Somehow I think not.
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I am in full concordance with all your comments .
The Advent from SJ`s was truly superb; I managed to record it onto cassette ( yes, that`s right, CASSETTE !! ) for future enjoyment.
The YT offerings have been varied and magnificent. As you said, the performance from Truro was outstanding.
Myself, and Mrs Adnosad enjoy nothing more than further cultivating the pleasure of settling down in front of the pc connected to large tv and enjoying the wonderful presentations which a lot of artists have worked very hard at during these difficult times we are in.
These events are further enhanced by our relishing vin blanc and salmon and cucumber butties as an accompaniment :)
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Belated congrats, here`s to the next one. Cheers ( hic ! )
Cathedral organs
in General discussion
Posted