Adnosad
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Posts posted by Adnosad
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20 hours ago, peterdoughty said:
I didn't see a link there, but went hunting and found this page on St Pauls' website which links to some documents. I do love the nerdy stuff, specially the cathedral plans! Items 61-64 on page 20 of the appendices are interesting - seems to suggest the organ is permanently but minimally miked. Is that for their own use or the BBC/broadcast I wonder?
Good that it's in H&H's capable hands, too.
I found this info quite interesting especially since we have recently returned from a very pleasant visit to London . Having a few spare moments ( better half out doing important things ) I had the opportunity of perusing this " schedule of proposed work ."
Have to say that it fulfils every aspect of the consultant's art in cake icing and window dressing.
Needless to say there is no breakdown of costs; who would be interested anyway? completely minor omission.
Well worth looking at the Caroe website and casting one,s eyes quickly over the cut and paste brag sheets!
Finally I am somewhat intrigued at the spelling of " verger " as " virgir ". I have looked up this spelling in my two volume " Compact Oxford Dictionary" and can find no such spelling; maybe it is a " Wrenism ". Hopefully some expert will be able to fully inform me on this important point.
Finally I would feel sorry for any organ firm who has to come in and make good the damage caused after the builders; remember the old adage, " no mess - no job ".
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Once in 80 years? That sounds often enough to me, Same could be said when it comes to visiting relations too!!
To get back on the subject ; the Eaton Hall bells were actually cast by the Belgian foundry of Van Aerschodt of Louvain.
There are 28 bells and 56 strikers.
I think I am turning into a carillon geekfreak!
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20 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
Some years ago, it must have been in August 2000, with my local organists’ association on a visit to Geneva led by the late, and sadly early deceased, Martin Hall, we had the experience of hearing Lionel Rogg as both organist and carillonneur. The former was on the van den Heuvel at the Victoria Hall (Geneva named their principal concert hall in honour of the British Queen) and the carillon was the following day at St Peter’s Cathedral. Our visit coincided with the late Queen Mother’s 100th birthday, and we were instructed by Lionel Rogg to assemble outside the cathedral at 12 noon. Punctually he appeared at a very great height emerging on the roof of the cathedral from a door and entering another in the tower. He then played the British National Anthem and ‘Happy Birthday’, followed by combining them in an inverted fugue.
Back to mobile carillons, not sure whether Adnosad would like it, but some time ago Musing Muso posted a video of a particularly complete, I thought rather impressive and substantial one (it would have required heavy lifting equipment to be portable), played with organ, trumpet and pan pipes - possibly from a Vienna Church. I have been unable to track it down. They played “Wien bleibt Wien”, a very catchy piece which the carillon seemed to suit well.
Phew! that was a close one in not being able to find the vid!
To prove I am not a complete Luddite with regard to these machines/instruments I have to say there is a very good one close to the Flower Market in Amsterdam which when we last visited played a JSB Prelude quite nicely, even to my ears!
Just to add to the list of these devices there is one attached to the clock mechanism in the chapel at Eaton Hall. It works to the extent that quite a number of the pins are missing so the tunes are not recognizable. Fortunately His Grace does not allow it to be operated.
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I really think that he best place for a carillon is in a tower as per normal bells.
I would be less than happy if one of my neighbours purchased one of these quirky contraptions; in much the same way as if one should install an organ ( !
I am happy to remain on my own with this opinion but to me they just sound like an overblown musical box.
Even a full ring of bells tends to take on the sound of scaffolding falling off the back of a lorry and rolling down the hill. I have in mind here the huge amount of metal swinging about in the tower of Liverpool Cathedral .
Despite my jaundiced views on the subject I am still interested in the history and manufacture of bells generally, as well as these " instruments " .
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8 hours ago, John Robinson said:
Which one?
You have caused me some hair tearing angst on this matter, well it would be if I had any!
I think this will have to be turned over to the Forum Grammar Police for further mooting.
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8 hours ago, John Robinson said:
I agree. We are all entitled to our opinions and those electronic gadgets which I may not name are not, in my opinion, not in any way equal to the real McCoy.
I agree too!
As regards the battle between pipes and silicone you are quite correct that there is no comparison; they are two completely different species yet they manage to ultimately produce the same effect i.e. obey the rules of physics /acoustics and tickle our auditory senses! After that it is all a matter of our individual interpretation plus the quality of our own hearing.
Now where did I put my hearing aid?
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Just tuned in after a couple of decent sized brandies and must confess to being somewhat confused with some of the replies to this thread! Thought I was referring to organs , especially those of the " D " variety. Whatever effect people desire to obtain from their fiddles is their affair; nothing wrong with that.
Hey -ho ,never mind, will try again tomorrow; best thing methinks
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CORRECTION edit out extra " myself "
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Looking forward myself to this little treat myself. DB is an outstanding musician/performer ( one of a very long line fortunately )
Will have to be on Catchup since it is broadcast far too late for me!
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Very good! hope it is up and running for the 95th and that IT may perform an offering on it.
Yes, I get very epsdis ffo too with comments referring to digital instruments as being merely " electronic " or just " toasters ". It would appear that there still persists a significant number of people who still need nudging into the 21st century. Do these individuals still have gas/ oil lights in their caves for the sake of being " truly authentic? "
As I have stated before on this subject, I have been exposed to censure from my very early days on this site for being so impertinent as to even mention the " D " word; I think that this attitude seems to being gradually put where it belongs - a hole in the ground.
Liverpool Anglican comes in for some stick with regard to " excess " but it is after all a rather large edifice which requires different instruments to suit different requirements. The Monster In The Loft provides for the greater part of these but there are many occasions where the practicality of a more compact versatile instrument serves the needs more adequately.
Finally, I do wish certain individuals would FULLY READ posts before girding their loins and launching an unwanted attack on individuals solely for the sake of promoting their own corner and prejudices.
Taxi!!!!!
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Further evidence that the only sound that the clergy like in " their" premises - is that of their own braying.
Any excuse in fact to get rid of that " wretched expensive noise " ( to use my previous quote )
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4 hours ago, D Quentin Bellamy said:
The person now charged with arson and the destruction of the Grand organ and the stained glass was apparently released, and news is that he has now murdered the priest who welcomed him into the area. The man is described as being of Rwandan origin, and evidently a very troubled individual indeed. This is all very distressing news.
Noting the mention of Nantes, I was wondering if work is now afoot to restore the cathedral and if there are plans to replace the organ.
In view of the present situation I feel quite sure that the organ will be the last thing on the church authorities mind!
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Yet another example of the work of one of our creators wonderful creations. Never mind, he/she/it loves us all if we believe what we have been told down the ages.
Still it is bad news. Regarding repair and restoration; well they will just have to wait in the queue it would seem. Lucky it has not happened in blighty ( as yet ) the authorities would merely see it as " an exciting real estate venture ".
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2 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
Gosh, so many different topics on this thread. I’m pretty sure we have already discussed the subject of 32’ metal pipes collapsing under their own weight, and as well as the RAH, if my memory serves, they included St George’s Hall, Liverpool and Birmingham Town Hall, the latter, I think, commented on by John Mander. I believe all of these have some internal support for the pipes. The William Hill ones at Birmingham (the earliest for England?), as well as the point made above about the pipe material, have unusually tubby feet. I have just thought of another outstanding example: the 32’ Contra Violone now at floor level in Exeter Cathedral. Not sure of its date - someone will know - and whether it pre-dates Birmingham TH.
Yes, collapsing pipes are certainly the flavour of the moment! My only addition to this advanced metallurgical discussion would be along the lines of total weight of pipe and the surface area of the foot of the aforesaid pipe.
There is a formulae by which this can be calculated and it results in the concentrated weight of the pipe at the foot which can be several tons. Intervening factors would of course still include the composition of the aforesaid pipe and any available support, plus the age.
The same formulae can be applied believe to a ladies stiletto ( or mens
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Finally, with ref` to your other post re` organs and recital attendance and the getting rid of the wretched things here is a true story regarding the fate of a large four manual instrument which contained a couple of stops by Cavaille- Coll and Schulze no less.
This noble instrument was located in a very large church with a spire in Yorkshire and was known to me in my younger days since the organist there was a friend of my father and I was lucky enough to hear it on several occasions .Anyway ,to make a long story shorter years later there was a break in and the pipework was stolen. The local constabulary apprehended the thief and returned the pipework to the church.
Was it reinstated? No way, the incumbent flogged it off to to a bona fide scrap dealer! c`est la vie.
Nothing is sacred in life.
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CORRECTION! This fool cannot even spell " fatwa " !!
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22 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
I haven’t heard any criticism of Willis II. Aren’t St Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin and the original scheme for Liverpool Cathedral due to him? The Liverpool Lady Chapel was certainly. I believe his son HW III left his own indelible stamp on some of his grandfather’s masterpieces. Henry 4 (he deliberately chose to abandon the Roman numeral) was certainly a controversial figure although, I understand, an outstanding voicer.
There’s no shortage of recitals or recitalists. Already, post-Covid, organrecitals.com have listed performances at 135 separate venues by no less than 312 different organists!
Correct with regard to the number of recitals et.al. available, My essential point is that of the the inverse correlation between the massive capital cost of restoration/maintenance against the actual number of gluts on seats.
If more people supported these events in person, which because of the present situation has not helped the cause, it would give added strength to the argument to retain and more importantly ,maintain these worthy instruments. Make no mistakes there are many incumbents who see this lack of interest/apathy as an ideal means of " getting rid of that wretched,noisy,expensive machine" and all that goes with it . Gives them more ammo to fire at their PCC meetings
No good banging on about " our wonderful heritage " if the " supporters remain glued to their armchairs.
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On 05/08/2021 at 07:26, Martin Cooke said:
What about the sentiments expressed in Huw Edwards' article? I don't think it is necessarily desirable to preserve every pipe organ just because it's a pipe organ, but... what I DO feel is needed (in the C of E, at any rate) is a mechanism like a quinquennial inspection whereby all church organs are inspected every five years so that churches can have repairs and faults corrected and organs properly maintained. With many organs not being regularly played by a competent organist or maintained by a proper organ builder, there is no means by which PCCs can be kept informed of the state of their organs. And, let's face it, the organ is probably the least understood (by the layman) piece of apparatus in a church, but is yet probably the most valuable. This quinquennial idea would help, too, to separate out those instruments that are genuinely good organs, suitable for their location and purpose, and entirely worth preserving, and others that are not of this quality. I believe at least some PCCs would be proud to know that they have an organ built by a well-respected builder, or that their instrument is a fine example of the work of X & X or Y & Z, and that it would help them to see the importance of looking after it. Equally, I think some churches need to be helped to see that silk purses cannot always be obtained from a sow's ear, and that some pipe organs are not worth spending more money on. There are too many instances where poorish pipe organs are inadequate to support the earnest work of a goodish organist who wants to be able to play a reasonable range of repertoire, or they are badly sited in awkward corners of churches so that they are not close enough to the congregation to be effective. In the case of a fine, historic organ being awkwardly placed, perhaps the church could be encouraged to boost its musical resources by having a supplementary digital organ and whatever music is to be performed is shared, as appropriate between the two instruments. The concept of having two organs in different locations in a church, after all, is not a new one, and there are already instances of where quite modern pipe organs are having to be supported by the use of digital instruments. I'm thinking of St Mary's Nottingham and Clifton Cathedral but I am sure there are more. Could there be more scope for a happy coexistences like these where a supplementary digital organ would actually enhance the status and usability (for want of a better way of putting it) of the resident pipe organ? ("Evensong tonight in the chancel with our lovely Willis organ." "At Eucharist next Sunday Dr Snodgrass will be playing some Bach on the Marcussen and some Rheinberger on the Viscount." And... obviously... many more ideas more creative than these.) And... thinking aloud... might this sort of thing not help to create more interest generally so that the musical life of a church begins to blossom more and more with success breeding success... and then there will be more funding available to look after the historic pipe organ.
Agree completely. The article ,penned by a person for whom I hold in high regard but in this instance I was nearly crying into my coffee with the overflowing sentiments expressed. I think my comments which I have just posted on the Albert Hall thread can apply here without the necessity to reiterate.
You sir are a brave man on here daring to mention the " D " word. I had the impudence to mention this word in one of my early postings on this site and I think the fatwah is still in place!
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20 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
Slightly peripheral to the general topic of the RAH organ, but relevant to its original builder and, after all, the case and front pipes (even if partially repaired) are wholly the work of ‘Father’ Willis, at the memorial recital for Angus Smart this week in Hereford Cathedral Peter Dyke mentioned that 2021 is the bicentenary of the great man’s birth. I may have missed it, but I haven’t seen any reference to this. Surely a subject for celebratory recitals.
Yes, good point about the bicentenary. One has to say though that amongst the organ fraternity Willis 1,2,3 have certainly inculcated the wrath of generations of organists; but that applies , I think. to a number of organ type people; even the " all bow down to the great god Cavaille-Coll " who have openly accused him of " organ heresy", to name but one. Before the boiling oil and molten lead is put on the boiler for me I state here and now to be a staunch Willis/ Cavaille -Coll admirer ;warts and all.
Talking of molten lead reminds me of one of our posters here on this subject who must have been covertly referring to Willis , who stated that the composition of the pipe metal of the AH organ must have been down to " the builder ".
Pretty obvious observation if ever there was one. Willis was a craftsmen, no doubt of that but he was first and foremost a businessman. If he saw an opportunity to cut his costs to increase his profits then like any good Victorian businessman he would do so. I have heard that some of the " timber " used in the present day rebuild of the Alexandra Palace instrument is of MDFB grade.
Also I don`t think for a moment Willis, or any other organ builder for that matter would ever have envisaged that generations down the line would be bothering to even consider restoring their creations, which are amongst other inventions very much products of that highly creative epoch.
I am now firmly driving my own hand cart to hell but never mind, The present day upshot is that millions have, and are being been spent on renovating worthy instruments which, unfortunately, under the present situation, is highly likely to continue for a considerable period of time - will never function to their full intended purpose. I will not bang on about recital attendances past, present, or even future.
I await the firing squad with my usual degree of stoicism!
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15 hours ago, Robert Bowles said:
I had some involvement at RAH during the final stages of planning the re-build around 20 years ago. Ian Bell asked me to look at the front pipes and the their distorted feet with my Structural Engineer's hat on. My recollection is that at first I really couldn't understand why they had not collapsed completely. If I'd been tasked with designing a component that was guaranteed to have structural problems, I would probably have suggested a tall, thin, soft metal tube with an inverted cone at its base! Access inside the instrument was not easy, but I found enough nooks and crannies from which to get a reasonable impression of what was going on, and that made me feel better. Some of the feet had clearly been renewed in thicker metal than the original. The pipes had multiple restraints on their inside faces, all based on the standard lateral restraint detail, comprising a small diameter vertical tube soldered to the surface of the pipe and fitted over a vertical pin that was fixed to the timber frame. That detail is normally involves just one pin per pipe, and is intended just to provide lateral restraint. In this case there were multiple small diameter tubes which were fitted right down at the base of the pins, gaining vertical support from the frame. The style and workmanship varied, suggesting that there had been multiple attempts at mitigation by different people, and the locations were somewhat ad-hoc, based on where there were sturdy bits of frame to connect to. I recall suggesting that this arrangement appeared to be working, but that it defied structural analysis. A greater margin of safety could be achieved by increasing the number of restraints and adding support points to the frame. I called this "Structural Velcro!" I had no further involvement, but it sounds as if that suggestion was taken up, and that it's come in handy with this recent damage.
So, translated into Standard English - a bodge up.
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1 hour ago, John Furse said:
I'm puggled ! I've searched the BBC website (not the fastest to navigate) and cannot find Holst in this programme. Is there summat I'm missing, please, Adnosad ?
What I did notice, when watching (having previously listened), was that the Timps were offset and to one side of the orchestra, behind the Basses. I would have placed them in the centre. Does anyone know if there a musical or acoustical reason for this or, in the vastness of the RAH, doesn't it matter ?
Thanks for that; yes, Williams, not Holst. Same point made by myself still applies.
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1 hour ago, OwenTurner said:
Looks like a ladder might have positioned to change a lightbulb or place a microphone? (Are those microphones on the casework in the photograph?) Perhaps someone didn’t realise that organ pipes are softer than cast iron drainpipes in terms of ladder resting. It would have held the ladder until the climber was a few rungs up, then slipped. Force directly proportional the weight of the person plus ladder and the cosine of the angle of ladder…
Microphones? well, if they were then I certainly have full admiration for the technical brilliance of the sound engineer!
My overall impression of the concerto was that it was quite good; the Holst though is definitely showing signs of being from an almost forgotten age.
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Perusing the RT just happened to notice that the "new" organ is going to be aired a couple of times.
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Sad but would appear on the face of it to be a " perfect passing "; very Viern(e)ish.
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I have only " attended" one on line funeral. Was a strange experience but it was filmed very discreetly; one also had to provide a code to " log in ", for obvious reasons.
Personally, with the greatest respect, I feel that this " event" should have been conducted in the same way.
Roger Fisher was a marvellous musician; but more importantly he was a very nice man. If we are not personally invited to the send off of a person we do not know closely, or we are not related to, then the best way, in my opinion, is to remember them spiritually - not via the intrusive means of digital intervention; HOS , and their ilk, fall into a different category altogether
In parting though I must say that overall the standard of music performed was well above that which we were " entertained " with at a recent send off.
Quite interesting nerdy stuff from St Paul's Cathedral
in The Organ
Posted
Morning!
I will take over the monopolising, for now!
Yes, you are quite correct with regard to my query re` " Virger "; it is one of those words which one has to clearly think about before committing to paper. The spelling IS incorrect on page 4 of the " Schedule of Work " , as is their spelling of " signaling " . I know I am being pedantic here.
Re` " dust and detritus " - we shall no doubt eventually find out. A similar situation is about to occur in St. Georges Hall where, despite millions being " spent" on major repairs to the fabric several years ago , the hall is now closed for " maintenance work to the ceiling and lighting " .
I am currently awaiting for a reply from David Wells as to what adverse effect this is likely to have upon the organ since there is bound to be a significant ingress of crap into The Dear Old Queen . Better get the cheque book out!