Adnosad
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Posts posted by Adnosad
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Democracy has little place in music, yet over the years, I have heard not one, not two, not a dozen......it is literally dozens of comments about certain performances on record.
I would defy anyone to arrive at any different conclusion than that of "definitive" when they listen to Francis Jackson playing the Healey Willan "Intro & Passcaglia" from the Great Cathedral Organ series back in the 1960's.
Similarly, Roger Fisher's "Reubke" from the 1970's, which still draws gasps from those who hear it, even if the Chester organ is far from historically correct.
I'm sure I would not be alone in a crowd, by suggsting that Heinz Wunderlich plays Reger better than any other.
Whether we like it or not, certain things are just marvellous to behold, whether they be great paintings, Shakespeare, Ayrton Senna driving an F1 car etc etc.
Surely, it is when something is revisited time and time again,and still remains outstanding across the years; that the word definitive can be considered.....unless it's Florence Foster-Jenkins of course.
There are landmarks in all sorts of things, and it is usually the people who KNOW who decide what the particular landmark is.
I would suggest that it isn't as quite as arbitary or as subjective as we think.
MM
I enjoyed reading your comments/observations on this matter. The examples which you have quoted are indeed excellent if not exemplary but I still ponder on the issue of decreeing the term " definitive ". The application still involves a reasonable amount of microscopic hair -splitting.
I would be very interested to know the definition of, " it is usually the people who KNOW who decide what the particular landmark is ". There is a general consensus as to outstanding quality/ performance etc. regarding the activity/ work under review but for the reasons I originally stated our definitions can at best only be arbitary, or subjective even.
I am certainly one for indulging in self-deprecation but I think I can place my hand on my pectoral and say that " I know what is best ". By implication that has to mean that we all know what is best but eventually we are all going to differ unless we align our prejudices,fetishes, or whatever we want to refer to them as, with the same supporters club.
In other words we end up going round in circles - which is ok by me since it provokes stimulating debate!
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A couple of Elvinisms:
"A dazzling stream of silver" for Harrison's new choir Mixture at Lincoln in 1960.
"Golden-toned Trumpets" for the Great Trombas at Ripon.
Similes such as those quoted can be interesting, and sometimes charming even but they do not really contribute very much I feel towards an understanding of the point they are trying to make save their indulgence in quaint,descriptive language more worthy of a bad novel.
The closest example I could quote as being representative was whilst in attendance at a recital given in Liverpool Cathedral some time ago when after the metalwork located up in the tower was brought into use a rather cut glass voice behind me stage whispered that she, " thought it sounded more like a ragmans bugle ".
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These comments I would wholeheartedly agree make for interesting reading. The problem is though that any attempt at trying to set a benchmark for " a definitive performance must by its very nature,fail.
Ones opinions can only hope to be arbitary at best. There are many organs,organists,venues, recordings, registrations, musical editions, techniques, tempi .................... which I may or may not like but I could certainly never attempt to be able to elevate any of them to the lofty level of being " definitive ".
As humans we are hardwired to our own particular likes and dislikes no matter what the genre; and, if we had to explain in an analytical fashion why this should be so we would soon become enmeshed in our own arguments.
Like I stated in my intro , such comments make for interesting reading . I could just as much suggest a particular recording, or anything else for that matter, as I could recommend a restuarant whose food / service etc. I had enjoyed. It is all , arbitary. However myself, and everybody else probably ,will be well aware of the self professed " experts " who know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing. All I can say is that it is a truly humbling experience being in the presence or within earshot of such gods walking upon the face of the earth!!
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I don't know that one, but old Bevingtons are interesting. There is one very similar to this at Hilborough, Norfolk (NPOR N06363), but it also has a Sesquialtera 17.19.22 on the Great. What fascinates me about it is that the case appears to be a lot older than the organ and is very similar, but on a larger scale, to the old case (formerly attributed to Father Smith) at Staunton Harold. The Great is in the case, but the Swell is tacked on at the back. I've never met anyone else who has thought about this particular example, which strikes me as being potentially a lot more important in historical terms than has been realised. Incidentally, it's a nice organ too, and features on the BIOS soundfiles.
I have just remembered that there is a very nice, to the best of my knowledge, original Bevington instrument in Slaidburn Parish Church, West Yorks. A plaque on the case informs the reader that the instrument was exhibited at The Great Exhibition.
The church purchased the instrument but the only location for it, considering the size of the building .was at the West End directly in front of the door. Access to the church has been via the side door ever since!!
Not had a the opportunity to hear this instrument but I am sure some perusers of this site have more details. Good to know that at least this instrument has survived the passing and ravages of time.
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Try this as a link to a drawing. There are a number of photos of the spire if you Google "Images". Have a hunt.
Best wishes,
N
Hey ! a real " WOW " factor if ever there was one! Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. My laziness would no doubt have overcome me and I would have found this site sooner or later.
Truly a gothic edifice of the highest order. Pity it, together with a lot of other people and buildings had to pay the ultimate sacrifice in order to save mankind but that is life I suppose.
I am surprised that this church was not mentioned in that excellent book entitled " Visionary Spires " gen. ed Sarah Crew. This book examines fantastic designs ( mainly Gothic ) some of which made it off the drawing board and others which didn`t.
In order to get back onto matters organ it would be interesting to wonder at the organ which occupied it. Think I may well have a sleepless night in designing a case/ console/ spec for it!!
Whilst I am still edifice geeking I do not think however that even this Colossal Pile would even come close to a drawing I saw in a book entitled " Funerary Architecture "; the author of which I have forgotten. Anyway, there is a drawing in this book of what can only be described as a Gothic monolith which was planned to stand on the Millbank site by the Thames. In scale this would have completely dwarfed the Palace of Westminster/ Westminster Tower and the Abbey!!!!
Its function? To act as a Repository for the Great and The Good of Britain!!! The designer , I think, was Waterhouse.
I have to be careful on architects what with mixing Scot and Pugin on my previous ramblings!
Thanks once again for the input on the thread.
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I would dearly have loved to have seen his (Scott's) church in Hamburg (destroyed by the allies) which was the tallest (147.3m) in the world for 2 years after the spire was completed in 1874. The Spire (like Coventry) still remains and is the city's second tallest building. We forget that British architects were/are highly regarded aboard. I was also amazed at the Scottish work in and around St Petersburg when I first went there.
Best wishes,
N
I think a few of the people who are contributing to this thread would possibly enjoy the opportunity to peruse some of these edifices if you have any pics available.
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MusingMuso wrote
[..snip..] The church is not by Pugin, but in fact by Giles Gilbert-Scott, [..snip..]
MM
The church was consecrated in 1859 and Giles Gilbert Scott was not born until 1880. The architect was his grandfather Sir George Gilbert Scott who thought of it as "on the whole, my best church."
Oscar
Correct, and as has my serious error been pointed out by another esteemed poster, thank you for that!
It is a magnificent piece of architecture and I think we should still be thankful for Edward Akroyd in being such a generous benefactor ( alongside his other philanthropic work in Halifax as well )
The edifice still behoves a still impressive town ( or is Halifax a city now?? )
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Reading between the lines, (and the gaps on the pipe-racks), I think you may be referring to All Soul's, Hayley Hill, Halifax.....the famous "Schulze" organ (with a few real Schulze ranks), built by Forster & Andrews and voiced by Philip Selfe, if my memory serves me correctly. (It never sounded like a Schulze organ, but it did sound superb). I heard Flor Peeters in recital on this very organ.
The church is not by Pugin, but in fact by Giles Gilbert-Scott, and although made of very soft limestone, it is the most wonderful landmark in Halifax, if only because the ancient Parish Church is built in a valley bottom and almost invisible to anyone in the centre of town.
MM
You are totally correct. Thank you for that correction as well. Advancing years and the comensurate madness which accompanies it!!
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In their heyday, Laycock & Bannister turned out a large number of instruments....possibly 700 or more. If St Mary's is the church with the great spire in Nelson, it has been closed for many years, and I have no idea what state the organ is in if it is still there.
At one time, I could have counted possbly 40 instruments in a ten mile radius, but perhaps half a dozen remain; largely in Anglican churches: the majority of large, imposing non-conformist chapels having been closed, demolished or turned into housing projects.
What astounds me, (changing the thread content completely), is that so many of these magnificently made instruments were wrecked and burned by demolition contractors and developers, yet they could so easily have been used as the basis for tonally revamped instruments, using new pipework.
Most instruments built by provinvial builders in modern times, come nowhere close in mechanical quality and structural integrity, even if they sound better.
A former employee of the firm used an old L & B Methodist Chapel organ as the basis for a more modern instrument; carrying out the work himself as organist of the church where it is now situated. It's a fine instrument, and is as sound as a rock mechnically; the majority of the instrument's action and windchests dating back to 1870 or so.
MM
Such is the wicked way of life - no respect for the old or the dead!!
Such destruction of the craftsmans work has gone on since time immemorial. The earliest example of such destruction I can recall was as a youngster I can remember a local church coming under the hammer and since it was the `6o`s the students from the local art college used the pipes; painted various colours as an " installation " to use a current artistic phrase!
One of the worst examples which comes to mind is that of a very large Pugin church somewhere in the West Riding which had an excellent F & A instrument incorporating some Schultze and Cavaille- Coll pipework.
The church was broken into one night and thieves stripped out the metal pipes. Those responsible were caught, the pipework was given back to the church and the incumbent at the time promptly sold it on for scrap!!!
This fine church remains and comes under the auspices of the Redundant Churchs Protection League ,or something of a similar description.
In fact some of the instrument remains - but what a mess!
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If we are both thinking of the same instrument (and cathedral), the total capital required includes £95,000 for 're-voicing of the reeds' - I am presently unsure how this could reasonably fall under the guise of either an overhaul or a restoration. I wonder why this was even considered necessary on this particular instrument?
One might reasonably expect that a few tongues might need to be replaced, or possibly the odd shallot repaired and pehaps a number of wedges re-seated, etc - but 'revoiced'?
Surely some mistake....?
Yes. I reckon on thatbeing an error too. The work is mainly of a " restoration " in essence. Action/leathering/ electrical etc. So far as I am aware the reeds are functioning in a perfectly satisfactory manner. BUt I am quite sure there are those who would totally disagree.
From listening to this particular instrument now even my aged,deaf, tone deaf lugs can detect a significant difference , and improvement in performance/output as a result of the work carried out to date.
The same can also be said of the instrument ,also by the same builder which occupies a large building in the same area; work which is being carried out by a local organ builder/repairer/restorer.
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I find this quite amusing; not simply as a comic statement, but as something being quite close to the truth.
I don't know if many board members have ever stumbled across organ built by Laycock & Bannister, but the first John Laycock had been a craftsman joiner before becoming an organ builder. I suppose joiners were better then than they are now, because most things were made of wood, but Laycockj obviously did his homework and his measurements well, because there are quite a few organs of his well over a century old, which continue to give sterling service; so well made were they.
Unfortunately, he didn't seem to be a great tonal artist, in spite of some nice (rather than superb) instruments, but structurally and machanically, his instruments were maginificent. Sadly, with the demise of so many smaller parish churches and almost all the big old chapels, many of these instruments were scrapped.
MM
You have reminded me in your post of the name of L & B . There used to be quite a good example of such an instrument in the form of a 3 decker in St. Marys Church, Nelson, Lancs. The church has survived I believe. The organ.................well??
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Interesting points to ponder on that reply methink. Where large capital sums are available for repair /restoration work then yes, I agree, ethics can prevail over cost. A disposable income always has more purchasing power than a budgeted income - and it tends to lean towards the latter for most of our parish churches and their ilk when it comes to managing and maintaining their fabric and contents.
A very large cathedral close to my location is currently doing quite well in raising funds for a major overhaul of its instrument. This is no mean task but if one scales their scheme down in order to compare with a much more modest example then the issues of cost are exactly the same. I mean " Where / how do we raise the capital? "
As a result I mention again the unmentionable word " compromise ". I state again that the price is the dominant factor . I know exactly how much time and labour it requires to carry out major repair work on an old tracker instrument. In those Good Old Halcyon Days materials and the labour to go with them were both in plentiful supply, and cheap. Not any more! I do not mean tuning `n tweaking `n hoovering here, more full blown in your face heavy restoration.
Which brings me quite nicely on to the point of the availability of those able to carry out such work. Yes, there are numerous firms who carry out excellent work. But let us not forget they are in the business of making a return. They are not charitible institutions who happen to like repairing historic,wonderful instruments. Some firms, and I refuse to name for obvious reasons, have unfortunately denigraded the noble art of the organ builder by carrying out work of a somewhat questionable quality.
To finish, one can discuss until the Last Trump soundeth with regard to the descriptive qualities and their relevant worthiness of those proper nouns " craftsman " contractor " " builder " whether that encompasses the sphere of organ building/ repair or any other activity.
The terms , must by their very nature, be somewhat arbitary.
I finish with an often quoted story from the legendary WTB stable.
" Mr. Best, do you happen to know who built the organ in here ? " ( referring to the old Philharmonic Hall in Liverpool )
WTB " The joiner. "
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I can see the day arriving, and it will be a very sad day, when a great many more wonderful pipe organs, many of them legacies of times when churches were packed to the doors, will become unplayable because the funds to maintain them are simply not available and there is also no hope of raising them. Pipe organs are likely to become heard only in our cathedrals and major parish churches. As I have posted on a number of occasions, the parish church where I was a chorister has a magnificent 4-manual, 104 speaking stop organ that's not been touched since it was built in 1938. Conservatively, it needs something like £800K to restore, but I cannot see that sort of money being raised, given that it's located in a poor northern city with traditionally high unemployment.
I agree totally on this point; therefore, there has to be some form of, dare one utter the word which must not be even breathed, compromise??
The organs, of which your example is one of many, provide a testament to the craftsmanship of a bygone age which can still be replicated, but at what a price. When one thinks of those magnificent edifices which were raised by our Victorian forefathers to nourish the spirit and ease the conscience I don`t think that many of them ever realised that their endowments for edifice and magnificent instruments would ever survive as long as they have in order to enable us to pick up the legacy ( and maintenance costs!! ) of keeping their spirit alive. I do not refer specifically to the Great and the Grand examples but rather to the numerous smaller churches throughout the land which recieved endowments from local benefactors.
I will not reiterate further on this since I spelt out one of the main reasons for Compromise in my initial posting on the subject. I still expect to be thrown into the tumbril as as an iconoclast for holding such views. I can handle that - no problem
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I was quite enjoying reading the interesting comments / observations which stemmed from the initial posting regarding an organ being put up for sale on a certain well known site.
As seems to be the usual pattern of events on this site, the subject becomes a little elaborated as contributors give their opinions and can end up appearing to be debating a different topic altogether. Fine, no problem there.
The comments raised by contributors seemed ,well, to myself, quite interesting and non-invasive. I realise that not everyone embraces digital technology but it is interesting to have input and cross over at all levels on issues and subjects.
A church in my home town has a very fine 4 manual F & A organ which gave up the ghost many years ago and was digitalised by a now well known firm. The pipework remains intact and the original console was converted and has been in use for some thirty years. This console has now collapsed, along with the original electronics but the organ and the 4 manual console has been replaced by a state of the art instrument from the same company and will be inaugurated by a well known and respected organist this June.
Why did the Authorities not have the F & A rebuilt? Simply because an astronomic amount of capital had to be pumped into major repairs to the fabric of the church. Something had to give . A good decision was made which suited everyone concerned
I am somewhat perplexed to find this thread is now closed.
I suppose this is what open -ended democratic debate is all about.
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Sadly, I never heard Brian Runnett play live, but I can well believe your observation re: Reubke.
BR had an extraordinary affinity with the German Romantic repertoire, and one of my most cherished records is of him playing Reger, among others things, from Norwich.
MM
Was fortunate enough to hear him play on the still extant but defunct 4 manual instrument in Holy Trinity Southport in the early `60`s. Quite remarkable.
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For me it would have to be the late Brian Runnett of Norwch Cathedral.
Agree................. a tragic loss to the music world at such an early age................now resides only in the memory of an increasingly ageing few. Such is the stuff of life.
I would nominate SP`s rendition in the `60`s as a possible contender.
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There will be a Recital to celebrate the Bi-Centenary of the Birth of Aristide Cavaille-Coll. This will take place at the Parr Hall, Warrington, Cheshire on Friday, 17th June, 2011 at 7.30pm. The Recitalists are Roger Fisher, Organist Emeritus, of Chester Cathedral AND Benjamin Saunders, Director of Music at Leeds Cathedral. The programme will include music written by the composers who were inspired by the 'symphonic' organs of Cavaille-Coll. This Recital may represent a final opportunity to hear the Great Organ in it's present home, prior to a possible move elsewhere.
Well Tempo Primo it would appear from the result of your posting on this topic that there are likely to be cohorts of pro-CC supporters attending the proposed recital at the hall in June.
It is always encouraging, I think, to know that one can fully rely on rock solid support from the voiciferous on such occasions
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There was rumour of it going to a cathedral.
Believe that a potential home has been found for this instrument but still not sure where and from reading these notes no-one else seems sure either.
Either way it is good that there may well be a new home for it where it will be used on a more regular basis instead of gathering dust on the mantelpiece.
I think all due credit still has to be extended to Warrington Council with regards to their efforts over the years to at least keep the instrument extant. Not an easy one in relation to the costs involved in maintenance,staff and, heating linked to huge attendance figures at the recitals over the years.
I am quite sure that there will be an equivalent turnout for the Final Recital/ Funeral. There usually is to mark such occasions.
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I have it! Couperin, Bach, Hindemith and Reger put out by Gemini Recordings
Trawled through the vault and found that I too still possess this recording which can only be described as " masterful execution " despite the garish cover which adorns it.
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Can anyone point me towards diagrams/line drawings of different sorts of organ pipe? (Or would Mr Mander's drawing office like to make me a set?!) Preferably copyright free. For use in a CD booklet.
" Organ of the 20th Century ". Author: Geo. Audsley. Published : 1919 by Dodd Mead & Co. ( NY ) may be a nod in your required direction.
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I have just taken posession of PRCD 1042 . Richard Lea playing nothing much of which I had previously encountered (on the organ at any rate) on the iconic Walker at Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral. Superb playing, amazing sounds and at least two pieces that I am now after copies of. Get it direct from Priory at £9.99 + p/p - its a bargain! Maybe not for the purists (no G compass here) but my journey home from work today was nicely filled and the car speakers much exercised.
A
Glad you approve. Mr. Leas choice of items is always forward looking and dynamic, both in his recitals and recital work. The level of musicianship he employs is of the highest standard. Finally, his registration skills and sensitivity as an accompanist should be regarded as object lessons in themselves.
These views are my own, and I would not expect them to be endorsed by fellow perusers of these forums. All views and opinions have to be subjective and arbitary by their very nature.
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Do not feed the troll!
The troll is happily fed and watered and has no problems whatsoever!
As expected I can feel the Flames of Hellfire and Perdition licking at my nether regions, but, no problem there!!
Briefly, i knew this would not be a particularly easy issue to get round.
My posting may have given the honoured readers on this site palpitations but I speak as an appreciator of the arts and most of the appendages which hang off it, not as a Goth, Vandal, or other bare -buttocked savage BUT.............
.......... the general trend of the thread seems to be going the wrong way round the roundabout. The emotive words " cost ", " value ", and " worth " are totally subjective, as well as arbitary.
We live in a highly developed Capitalist Age in which " real values " have become distorted to a horrendous degree by the media in their obsession with worth,wealth, and most importantly, cost. Our esteemed reader of my post himself mentions directly these Capitalist Trappings - Race horses, sports cars, artefacts etc. All very true, couldn`t agree more, but, their " worth " , " value "? that is another matter which is as subjective as it is voluntary.
I think that is sufficient for the moment. I await more comments on this topic ( hopeful aren`t I ?? )
Just to stoke the flames up a bit I am now going to listen to Ian Tracey playing on a very good Makin organ in Warton Parish church, Lancashire contrasted to Geoffrey Fisher playing an equally good instrument ( crafted by hand ) In St.Peters church, budleigh Salterton.
Good Day To You All.
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There was rumour of it going to a cathedral.
It would appear that for so long as mechanical organs walk upon the face of the earth there will always be rumours as to their continued existance.
The once-upon-a-time magnificent instrument in Parr Hall is no exception. As contributors to this topic have correctly pointed out well meaning but totally impractical plans for its existence continue to circulate. Allan Taylor I think has set out the most sensible and balanced posting on these points.
The cost of mechanical organs is astronomic and,in todays economic climate, totally morally reprehensible. I am not a complete iconoclast, I appreciate craftsmanship,ingenuity, an appreciation of what was once great in the past etc.....etc but that does not detract from hard nosed economics one iota, unfortunately.
On a recent visit to the HW works in Liverpool I was amazed by the instrument presently being constructed there for shipment to New Zealand. Then I asked myself ,how long before that requires x amount spending on maintenance,rebuilding, even allowing for the adoption of more modern techniques of construction and materials?
I then listened to the 4 decker digital instrument which was ignonimously situated in a dusty corner at the back of the aforesaid works keeping company with an equally dusty old Roller.
This, whether we like it or not, is the way forward for the instriuments survival. Digital sampling has come along quite some way since the days of Livingstone - Burge .
I can feel the brickbats and hear the howls and screams even as I write this but it has to be written.
I finally condemn myself to the flames of eternity and suggest that in order to survive into the next millenium instruments of the likes of Liverpool Anglican, Parr Hall, Kings College, Redcliffe....................et. al should GO DIGITAL. This is the only way in which their magnificent,unique sounds will stand any chance of survival in the years to come. Hanging onto history is comparable to hanging onto fresh air.
Anyway, all is not doom and gloom; Just imagine, one would be able to " pick `n mix " with ones specification and tonal penchants - the clarinet from Redcliffe, the viols from Kings College, 64` from Sydney............................ and all in ones front parlour for a mere snip in comparison to " The Real Thing "!!
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Thank you. I'm glad you agree. The recording 'sends' me.
There was one attempt last year at an organ recital in Liverpool Cathedral (which required as much registering as the whole of the rest of the programme put together), which elicited a certain amount of praise from the Cathedral's titulaire organist and members of the audience (who were probably being far too generous!)...
Would there be any chance you could recall the organist for this recital? Thanks.
Parr Hall ,warrington
in General discussion
Posted
Quite possibly the use of the word " remote " could be replaced by " north of Watford Gap " i.e. flat caps and the vowels to go with them , external privvies, et.al. Still mystified though as to how a town located at the confluence of a main railway line AND a motorway connection can ever be described as being remote. I am obviously missing out on something here methinks.
Both Myself and Mrs Adnosad thoroughly enjoyed the musical offerings given by RF and BS. Well contrasted programme items. The hall management must be thanked for their part in promoting the event as well as a certain lady, whose name I missed, who virtually single handedly organized the PR work.
The stage / organ was very well illuminated for the first time ever. Credit must be also given to their stage crew for their artistic efforts.
The bar service was good too!
Was also encouraged whilst speaking with David Wells in that he is fairly confident that there could well be another recital before too long.