S_L
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Posts posted by S_L
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I'm glad, for Elizabeth Stratford and those at Arundel, that 'Songs of Praise' was a good experience.
What I wouild ask her to remember is that my comments were borne from an experience in about 1984/5. It wasn't a pleasant experience. It was a time of national industrial unrest in the country, those of us who lived through it won't forget it. The BBC was engaged in its own battle with the unions - which is why we had to record on one night instead, in those days anyway, of the usual two! The stress and threats of industrial action and a programme to record the following day from a Cathedral where the Dean & Chapter were being difficult about the union action, together with our tiny little Abbey, made the situation, amongst the crew, tense.
My comments about the Organist and Conductor/animateur being brought in were borne from a conversation I had with the, then, Director of the programme when I asked him what they did when either the organist or the conductor wasn't up to the job. "We get someone else in" was basically the tenor of his reply. Clearly, twenty five years later, things have now changed with contractually engaged musicians! I'm not sure I agree with the BBC policy on this - although I can see it has its merits.
I hope Elizabeth Stratford doesn't think my comments were, in any way, a reflection or criticism of the programme from Arundel. As I said at the outset of my original post, I didn't see the programme and, as a point of principle anyway, I would never criticise a fellow musician in public. They were comments, perhaps in reflection best left unsaid, from an experience twenty five years ago which has coloured my perceptions of the programme ever since.
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We don't use the organ at all during Lent - all music is sung unaccompanied (we don't sing hymns at High Mass!) and there are no organ voluntaries. The only exception to that is on Laetare Sunday. Similarly during Holy week the organ is silent except for the Gloria on Maunday Thursday and then until the improvisation before the Gloria and the singing it at the Easter Vigil.
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This is recounted by Gordon Reynolds in his humorous book Organo Pleno (Novello 1970): Chapter 7 - 'In statu pupillari'.
I wondered where I had heard it and thank you for reminding me. I had forgotten 'Organo Pleno' and 'Full Swell', both absolute classics with Gordon Reynolds' wit and Bernard Hollowood's cartoons making them some of the funniest little books I have read for a long time. And so I am idebted to the late Prof. Reynolds for the story. As an aside, I hadn't realised, until I read his obituary, that he was born in Hull, my own home city!
............................... of course, all of this is a long way from Ronald Shillingford's original post.
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This is not always the case.
I have played for two of these (both at 'greater churches'), and in each case, my boss conducted (and took the rehearsals) and I played.
The only tricky moment was during the first rehearsal, when the BBC made a balance check, for which I was asked to sustain a loud chord (it honestly did not occur to me to include the chamades). Later during the evening, the congrgation was singing lustily, so I used the tutti for the last line of the hymn.
About two minutes later, an extremely pale and dishevelled gentleman, with headphones slung around his neck and his hair standing on end, came up the stairs to the organ console, looked at me with a kind of wild expression and announced in a hoarse whisper "If you EVER ******* do that again, I will...."
Well, you get the idea.
I like that story - very amusing!! It reminds me of the story, probably apocryphal, of a young 'clever' organ scholar, I'm told at Halifax Parish church but that may be incorrect, who could hear a rather wayward tenor in the choir and decided to help him out in one of the hymns by 'decorating' the organ part and soloing the tenor part on the solo tuba! At the end of the hymn or whatever all that could be heard around the church was the comment - in a broad Halifax accent "If tha does that agin, I'll brek thee bl***y neck!!!"
As to the comment on my, rather too long, post. You will notice that I used the word 'frequently' - not the word 'always' when referring to musicians being 'imposed' on a church by Songs of Praise - Ron Shillingford has misrepresented or perhaps misunderstood this aspect of my comments.
I also, on purpose, didn't mention any names - and I don't think it was appropriate of him to do so!
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I didn’t see the ‘Songs of Praise’ from Arundel and so I can’t comment about the pitch of the hymns or the loudness of the organ playing but I can, albeit from experience from just over 25 years ago, add my ‘two-pennorth’ concerning the whole ‘Songs of Praise’ scenario. It is a pet-hate – and correspondents may, when they have waded their way through this, see why!
About 25 years ago we were asked to do a broadcast from our little Abbey and two things surprised me about the whole experience. Firstly was the appalling way that, in those days, the ‘SoP team’ behaved and, secondly, and conversely, was the amount of care that went into the actual, non-musical, side of the broadcast.
It was Lent. Back then, and to a certain extent today, they seemed to think that Catholics did Lent rather well and, so, only ever went to Catholic churches during the penitential season. I have to say that doesn’t seem to have changed that much although Arundel, and I’m sure correspondents will correct me, seems to be an exception. We had hymns imposed on us. My Rector gave me a short list of hymns that would be sung, others to be added by other denominations in the village, and I duly started to write, or put together some ‘arrangements’ of those hymns. (For ‘arrangements’ read, the occasional descant or subtle alterations of organ or vocal harmony – not the type of full-scale instrumental ‘arrangements’ now heard on a weekly basis) Eventually the ‘SoP’ came back with their list of hymns which didn’t include any of the hymns I had been working on. Our Rector, who was desperate to be seen on TV, wouldn’t stand up to them and so all my work was wasted.
It was decided that the large Abbey choir of forty voices would fill the small chancel, as they normally did on a Sunday and the production team felt the, rather splendid Victorian chancel, would be better seen without the choir sitting in it – and so they were sent to sit as members of the congregation apart from one item, recorded right at the very end, when they were sent to change into choir robes and take their usual place in the church. Again I tried to fight the choir’s corner but was overruled by the Rector and the choir spent almost the entire broadcast in the congregation. At the time the BBC were involved in a dispute with one of the unions and so filming took place on one evening, rather than, certainly in those days anyway, the usual two evenings. At 11 o’clock at night we were still at it – the cameramen were having difficulties with our tiny Abbey and kept getting each other in shot, the ‘congregation’ were getting fractious and, in the choir piece, a ‘sop’ to their being relegated to the congregation and recorded at about 11pm, tiredness started to show. The pitch started to be affected and they looked tired. This was a good choir, with an extensive track-record of hard work and a lot of experience but these people had done a days work, had given up their time for the broadcast in the evening and had another day to do the next day!
The pre-hymn ‘interviews’ took place at a different time and were mostly held in the grounds in and around the Abbey. I have a recollection of a certain, very well-known, TV presenter, under stress to get the broadcast done because of the industrial action, shouting at a member of the community for walking down the cloister when they were trying to film and having to be, gently, reminded by the normally quiet, retiring brother “This is my home – I live here”.
Having said all of this, at least I didn’t have a ‘Songs of Praise’ musician or organist imposed on me. A ‘visiting’ organist, it seems, played at Arundel. Frequently conducting is someone else. One is tempted to ask why? Doesn’t Arundel Cathedral have an organist who can accompany hymns? – we know this not to be the case! Why are the music staff, who work in the churches/cathedrals/abbeys used for broadcasts and know the buildings acoustics and peculiarities, frequently pushed to one side in favour of, I’m sure, a very fine ex-Cathedral organist?
Some 20 years ago I was interviewed for the post of Director of Music in a Cathedral. In my letter of application I commented that I thought the BBC’s whole attitude to religious broadcasting was going down the wrong road. At the interview I was asked about this. 20 years later I still think this to be so and possibly more so. I do worry about the BBC ‘pedalling’ their view of sacred music! I notice that broadcasts from Cathedrals are usually more conservative in their musical taste than when the broadcast comes from somewhere less exalted – presumably because the Precentor/Master of the Choristers etc has some veto on the ‘garbage’ the BBC wants to present!
Having said all of that I do have a few positive, but non-musical, points that I think might be worth making. In our broadcast the production team took enormous care in the way the building was presented. Yes, they booted the choir out of the chancel but we had two, very fine, Victorian painted glass windows at the West and East end of the church and the team spent two days building huge scaffoldings outside the Abbey on which to hang lights so that the windows would show to good effect when filmed, at night, from inside the church. More amazingly was the problem they encountered with filming in our little Abbey, at that time, the smallest building a broadcast had ever come from. Our central aisle was only just wide enough to take a movable camera. The problem was that it had uneven central heating grating on the outside of the aisle where the wheels of the camera went. The production team decided to ‘build’ a false aisle! They painted it red, the same colour as the carpet underneath and one man spent two days on his knees painting, onto the false aisle, the pattern of the grating underneath!!
I’m sure correspondents here have lots of positive comments to make about the programme. I apologise for the length of the comment – ‘Songs of Praise’ paid me a decent fee and I got a couple of ‘repeat’ fees too but it is one of my ‘pert-hates’, it wasn’t a good experience – and correspondents might be able to understand why!
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In retrospect, I found most of this year's TV broadcasts safe and predictable, but the one which caught my attention was the morning eucharist from Tewskbury Abbey. What a fine choir and magnificent organ. The singing had real vitality which I enjoyed enormously.
MM
I didn't hear the Tewkesbury broadcast, being in church, at that time, on Christmas morning where we had a Mozart Mass K140, Victoria 'O magnum mysterium' & Handl 'Resonet in Laudibus', but I did watch the Midnight from Liverpool - the Widor Mass is a 'meaty' piece of work, to say the least, and could not, I would have thought, in any way, be described as safe or predictable. I thought, also, Timothy Noon, conducting from a chair after an accident in the snow, and, particularly, the boys of the Cathedral choir worked their socks off!
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A very Happy and Holy Christmas to everyone.
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I work in a Catholic parish in Staffordshire and in the 15 years I have been there I have not noticed any initiatives that promote either choirs or organ playing. In fact you would be hard pressed to find a Catholic Church with a decent pipe organ in the part of Staffordshire where I live. They are usually under - powered, cheap, poor unit organs or more often digital. Sometimes all you find is a 30 - year old electronic with 12 sticks at your feet for pedals and samaba rhythms that come on suddenly during the offertory procession. In my parish we are trying to turn things around, with the blessing of the Archdiocease, but I often feel that we are a lone voice. We have earned a good reputation so far for using Palestrina, Byrd, Lobo and others each week at Mass; together with a quality organ music at the end of the liturgy. Yes, we have school children in the choir; yes, they love to sing the plainchant and polyphonic Latin Mass settings and we also have three enthusiastic young organ students.
As I was discouraged from playing by the organist at my local (Methodist ) church as a youngster, I am determined to see my young organists accompany as much os the Mass as possible. My organ students in the parish are consulted and involved at every stage with me in the re-building and enlarging of a fine Rushworth & Dreaper organ which we rescued from a chapel which closed in 2003. We even took our 14 year - old assistant with us to Terry Shires pipemakers in Leeds when we ordered the new stops for our organ. He is waiting to take his Associated board exam as soom as we have an instrument good enough. I would support any initiative designed to help and encourage youngsters from all walks of life to climb the steps to the loft and play. Equally, they should be given the chance to sing some of our wonderful Mass and service settings instead of being patronised with most of the rubbish that is served up in the liturgy today. This happens too often in the school Masses at many our Catholic High Schools. Some have thriving music departments, where the studuents could be involved in preparing music for the Mass. One local school was simply not interested when I knew of a pipe organ that they could have had installed in their hall for a small sum. They had just spent millions on new buildings.
Having said all that I am thrilled at the enthusiasm shown by the youngsters I work with and I know there is much more we can do. I would be interested to hear from anyone else working in a similar way, situated many miles from the nearest Cathedral (of either denomination) and with children drawn almost exclusively from state schools.
It all sounds so good doesn't it - and I have no doubt that it is!!!
............................... but it only takes the Archbishop to send you a new Parish Priest who isn't quite with your way of thinking and it will all collapse around you!
Depressing and you may very well say slightly defeatist. I never believed it would happen to me - .............. but it did - and all in the course of one weekend!
All the very best to you - long may it continue!
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The Hereford evensong was lovely - very relaxed and peaceful as an evening service ought to be - and the prayerfulness came through because the quality singing was clearly more than just a performance.
I went to Evensong at Hereford, one Friday night, a number of years ago, when Roy was Master of the Choristers. The cathedral was dark, the nave empty and in the choir there were the choir and clergy and, perhaps, two or three others.
The music was all unaccompanied, beautifully sung and it remains one of the 'highspots' of any cathedral visit I have ever made. It entirely summed up, for me, "where two or three are gathered....................."
It must be ten years ago but I shall remember that night for the rest of my days.................... Wonderful!
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The Regal (16') now on the Oberwerk that, until 1983, was on the Brustwerk at York University was a pretty fearsome sound.
I remember standing in the hall in about 1970/71 with an old organist who had been a pupil of Bairstow. "I don't care what Mr. ****** says, it's not a musical sound" she exclaimed!
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A long time ago I was sitting, prior to Evensong, in a Cathedral church in the North. A lady came up to me and said "Excuse me, but that's my seat". I looked at her, slightly astonished, and she added "I'm Mrs ...................." (the wife of the Master of the Choristers)
I knew the name and I moved - but, all these years later, I wouldn't again!!
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At the closing service of a Brighton church we had a version of the Doxology sung to "Knees up, Mother Brown":
Glory to the Father, Glory to the Son,
Glory to the Holy Ghost, Glory to the Three in One;
As in the beginning, now and evermore,
Glory to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost Amen! Hey!
I've been prepared to play some pretty dreadful stuff on occasion.
I don't think I have ever actually refused to play anything but there have been times when I have come close to it and times when I felt that I have to make my feelings known and made mild, or even not so mild, protestations.Some of the above are awful but I think that one just takes the biscuit!!
I don't want to say "I don't believe you" - because I do - but "I don't believe it!!!!!!!"
One wonders why the church was closing!
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It's a long time ago, maybe twenty years, but I have a vague recollection that I once went into the 'Star Inn' at Harome in North Yorkshire and that there was an organ in there - or have I imagined it?
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The trouble is that there is so much rubbish on the market.
I always used a variety of books - mostly 'A Responsorial Psalm Book' - for Sundays & Feast Days' by Geoffrey Boulton-Smith. There were a whole variety of settings in there of varying quality, and of varying difficulty - some were good, some were ok and some were awful - but at least you will have the words if you are prepared to compose music of your own. I'm, not sure whether the book is still in print though! I also used 'The Responsorial Psalter' - edited by Stephen Dean - it came in three volumes - but I used it rarely, the quality in here was less good.
A Responsorial Psalm was an integral part of our Sunday Mass - my Cantor and I would sit down at the beginning of the term and go through the next three months - which we were going to use - and which I was going to write or re-write!
Hope that helps.
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An interesting point is made by drd. If the proverbial gun was pointed at me I would have to say, unwillingly, that sight reading is one of my few stronger points; I have been playing parts of Gregory Murray’s setting of the Mass for over ten years now, but I always have to have the copy in front of me. Drd is probably quite right; the better reader one is the less is committed to memory.
David Harrison
I have a good friend, an organist, well qualified, with three highly respectable perfomers diplomas, who simply cannot play from memory. The complexities of Messiaen and Langlais, the counterpoint of Bach or the 19th century 'Romantic' school hold no fear for him - but ask him to play 'Crimond' from memory and he couldn't do it!
............... and I don't understand it!
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I had a bride on the phone not one hour ago! Would I be able to play the organ for her wedding on Sunday - this Sunday - at a church some 10 miles away? (Clearly good planning - or perhaps she had been let down!)
I told her that I didn't see a problem with that, providing the church authorities were ok with it, and asked her what she was wanting. She didn't know - the Priest was going to tell her BUT - more importantly was my fee!! I don't do many weddings nowadays and I told her the fee - a good deal less than, I know, quite a number of people in the locality charge. She told me that she would ring me back, it was clearly an issue and I didn't expect to hear anymore. Half an hour later she rang back, this time trying to bargain me down by telling me that it wasn't a Nuptual Mass.
I don't think my fee to be unreasonable and explained to her that my travel to and from the ceremony plus the ceremony itself would involve me in about an hour and a half's work and that I thought the fee, for a highly qualified professional person, was not unreasonable. Her plumber would charge twice the amount and a call-out charge for the Gas board is £75 before they do any work!
"I've got the organist of the church to do it" she shouted down the phone - so why did she bother to ring me back? Clearly this was one to be kept away from and, clearly, could have put me in a difficult position..
Over the 20 years I was DOM at a large Abbey Church I played for hundreds of weddings and encountered a number that one could write an epic book about - indeed, if I did write a book, I suspect no one would believe me. I suspect that there are quite a number of us in the same position.
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£225 does seem a little excessive!
I went through a time of having to attend a number of formal events where academic dress was required - and so I always just wore my old BA hood with an MA gown, despite having 'moved on' a little from there. Some time ago my wife suggested that I really ought to fly my proper colours and I paid £75 for my Ph.D hood - since then I've never worn it!
My wife's father was a Colonel - his brother was an Army Chaplain (killed at the very end of the war). Her father, very occasionally served Mass for his brother, wearing the battle dress of a private, without emblems of rank or the very considerable honours he had collected.
I wouldn't wear a hood if I was playing or directing at Mass. I might, just, wear it at Evensong if wearing hoods was the tradition - but I never play or conduct Evensong these days - and every time I go back to my College, where the wearing of hoods at Evensong is common amongst members of that particular institution, I always forget to take my gown and hood with me!!!
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I played for my Uncle's funeral there a couple of months ago. It is a reasonable sounding 2 manual Allen - I forget the model. It is at the back and a little remote from the proceedings up at the front.
Hope it goes well for you.
Many thanks for that - as long as it does what it says on the tin thats ok!
I'd rather play on a strange toaster that worked than a strange pipe organ that sounded dire and was unpredictable, unreliable and unplayable!!
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Firstly my condolences to you - the period between death and funeral is often one of manic preparation with an awful lull once everyone goes home at the end of the wake and reality sets in.
Secondly, on playing - I was asked if I'd play at my mother's funeral but until you're actually there it's impossible to know how one will hold up and I decided on balance not to. We were very blessed that the organist of her church (a professor of organ performance no less) offered to play instead. But I'd written a Nunc Dimitis many years previously that until then had never been aired in public, so I somehow found time to dust it off, rewrite it for the parts I could actually muster together in time for the funeral, transpose it so they could actually sing it, and rehearse it. That on balance was easier to cope with - though it was a hassle rearranging and rehearsing it at such very short notice. Maybe there's an idea for you if you've ever written music?
Finally, nothing shows up either on NPOR or Google but I did find a phone number - 01482 671212 - and a photo of an alarmly gothic Victorian
building: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/405091
Best wishes,
Contrabombarde
Thanks for that - the picture was a little alarming - but I know now where the place is!!
In truth we weren't that close - although she was my mother! I never discussed religion with her and I don't think she approved of my 'high church' leanings! She didn't practice but I do suspect she had some belief.
I've got quite a lot of experience of playing for difficult, often very difficult, events - though, obviously, I've never played for my own mother. I'm sure I won't have a problem playing although I would prefer not to have to - as for performing any of my music - I write a lot - but most of it, in truth, wouldn't be suitable!!!
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My mother died yesterday morning - and I find myself having to play for the funeral at the above crematorium. It was something I didn't want to do but my son, who is conducting the funeral rang them and they couldn't recommend anyone and "we don't usually have an organist" - "just some music for in and out".
I suspect it is an electronic, I suspect it will be a journey of discovery - but there's nothing worse than making a fool of yourself in front of all those relations who have been told by the occupant of the coffin what a wonderful musician you are!
I know what is going to happen - I'm going to just turn up and hope for the best but it's worth asking the questions:
Has anyone ever been there?
Does anyone know anything about the instrument?
Has anyone ever played it?
Thanks in anticipation.
SL
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My comment, wondering what an Area Dean does, was made as someone who has spent a considerable time as a member of the Church of England - and also of the Roman Catholic Church - and, to most laity as well as clergy and the hierarchry the role of an Area dean is, as the lady said 'what you make it'.
Some do very little - others do too much - others do very little and too much - some even do too much and very little!!!
You work it out!!!!
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Good news Quentin! Congratulations. But being RC I don't really know what an area dean does - please tell me!!
P
We do have Area Deans in the Roman Catholic church - look in your Diocesan Directory! - though quite what they do in either the Church of England or the Roman Church is beyond me!
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I am wondering whether that is supposed to be funny - or just bigotted twaddle!!
I'm not over fond of Howells either but the above doesn't deserve to grace this board!!
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Have people ever flocked to organ recitals ?
They do in France. I was in Chartres on August 15th some years ago - what a day! High Mass iin the Cathedral at 11 a.m. - a rather splendid lunch and then the Psalmody of Vespers in the church of St. Peter - followed by a long Procession, in the August heat, to the Cathedral arriving to a full Cathedral to sing the Magnificat, in Latin, preceeded by an amazing organ fanfare and accompanied by the most wonderful playing. Then a break for half an hour followed by an organ recital by Patrick Delabre (?) - the titulaire. The Cathedral was full and, at the end there was real applause and one felt a genuine affection from the audience to their recitalist. The music he played wasn't lollipops, by any stretch of the imagination.
What can we do? - no idea - but I sometimes think we ought to be less stuffy about it!!
I don't think I have ever actually refused to play anything but there have been times when I have come close to it and times when I felt that I have to make my feelings known and made mild, or even not so mild, protestations.
Awkward Organs
in The Organ
Posted
SS Nicholas & Peter ad Vinclua, Curdworth in the Diocese of Birmingham.
The organ and console are in a rood loft above the chancel arch. You reach them via a, none too safe, ladder from the nave of the church. Sitting at the console there used to be only a wooden rail between your back and the nave floor, some twenty feet below.
I don't have many bad dreams - but the nights I do usually involve the one time I played at Curdworth.