John Robinson
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Posts posted by John Robinson
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I have an affection for the Cocker (I think many of my generation played Francis Jackson's recording on "The King of Instruments" LP many times). It's very jolly and goes down well with the punters. I don't think any other Tuba Tune quite matches it.
Yes, it's the only organ piece that my long-suffering wife says she really enjoys.
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That depends on the Tuba Colin! (And probably the building acoustics as well). It used to be in my repertoire - I had the music for years, and eventually learned it for a recital. It went well - but the printed programme had "Tuber Tune"!
Perhaps on the grounds that it has a steady beet and should only be played by someone who knows his onions!
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Regular broadcasting of organ music would help, too.
I think we'd all like to see more of that. I can remember only ever seeing three TV series about the organ:
Gillian Weir
Howard Goodall
John Scott Whiteley
and radio programmes featuring the organ are very rare these days.
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I'd say that the reed, at least, was discarded because it is well beyond possible repair!
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Ralph Downes included an open flute 2ft on practically all his pedal organs. Is this now unfashionable?
I should have thought that this would be a useful addition to fortify a 4' for pedal solos. (I'm not an organist, so I may be completely wrong!)
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I suppose that it's rather predictable that not one of the pieces chosen by the BBC is for organ!
As for your list, Paul, I'm not sure about the Messiaen. I think that would just confuse most children!
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ladies of negotiable affections
What an excellent description! I'll remember that.
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Twice recently I have heard tales of local business, one a shop, one a dentist, who have been forced to cease playing classical music by customers threatening to take their business elsewhere if the owner persisted in playing it. THAT is the sort of attitude this country (and, one might add, it's priests) are up against - an attitude that regards classical music as a minority (or even elitist) interest of no importance.
'Dumbing down'?
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Ultimately what worries me is that we are still preaching to the converted. How many terrific recitals, given by excellent organists, have you been to, with only 3 people and a dog in the audience?
I agree that this is a not uncommon situation in this country, yet I have been to organ recitals in Germany and Holland where the church has been full to bursting. Having sat down (luckily my wife and I arrived early enough to get a seat!) in Cologne Cathedral a few years ago, people were coming in with camping seats and the like and establishing themselves in the aisles - and it's not as if it's a small building.
What are they doing right, and what are we doing wrong? Just a national characteristic, I suppose.
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I can appreciate your point, firstrees - although I confess that I am enough of a Philistine to go all trembly and excited at the build-up from 09:17, to the entry of the 32ft. Bombarde towards the end of the Adagio. I want to jump and shout - and it fair makes my toes clench in my shoes.... Yes, it is a bit Romantic - but Roth only lets his guard - and reserve - slip for 1':31" (including reverberation). And it is S. Sulpice, after all. It would have been a shame to have let that superb 32ft. reed just sit there....
However, in all seriousness, the ending works for me on Roth's recording. No fuss, or apparent truncation - just simple resolution.
Vox - thank you for finding this recording, It had simply not occurred to me to see if anyone had uploaded it to YouTube.
I just got around to listening to this (on headphones). I found the sound of the 32' Bombarde very impressive, especially as it is (I believe) on no more than 4" wind pressure. This just goes to show that high wind pressures are not essential to obtain loudness, even in reeds.
I suppose that the answer is that in order to have loudness along with smoothness (as in English organs compared to those of other European schools), higher pressures are necessary.
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Is my memory playing tricks, or wasn't it the case that the Trumpet and Clarion had been the old Trombas and hadn't been happy on the lower pressure?
Yes indeed. According to my little book, all four Great reeds were originally made by Walkers in 1903-4.
Then the Trumpet and Clarion were "revoiced as dominant Trombas" by Harrisons in 1916-17, although they were still called Trumpet and Clarion. The four Great reeds were, at that time, placed on "7 and 15 inches", although it is not clear which were on which.
Then in 1960, Walkers revoiced them again, this time on 4 1/4", the same as the flue work, and stood them on one of the main windchests, the Posaunes being on an upper chest on 7". And there they all remained until 1993.
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Yes, I take your point. Reading through this again I think it is inferred that all four G.O. reeds have been moved back to their old positions, and four existing flue stops have been displaced. Two have been identified by pcnd5584 (the Cornet and Cymbel sitting below the reeds), the other two as yet undetermined. So presumably the raised chest remains unused?
Prior to the 1993 alterations, only two of the four reeds (Trumpet 8' and Clarion 4') were on the 4 1/4" main chest. The other two (Contra Posaune 16' and Posaune 8') were on the upper chest at 7".
In 1993, the Trumpet and Clarion joined the other two reeds on a new 4-stop raised chest, the new Cymbel and Cornet taking their place on the main chest. The only other alteration was the old Tertian II being replaced by the new Sesquialtera II.
As far as I know, the old 2-stop upper chest was moved to the East side of the Solo box within the screen to accommodate the new Bombarde 8' on 10" pressure (and one slider remaining unused).
So if it is the Trumpet and Clarion that have been moved down to the main chest, and restored to their original 4 1/4" pressure, there remains two unused sliders on the upper chest. Perhaps it has been decided just to leave these unused. Personally, I'm not sure why it was thought necessary to move these reeds and lose two valuable flues (notwithstanding your low opinion of the Cornet!); if they thought the 7" wind pressure was too high for the Trumpet and Clarion, couldn't they have left them there and reduced the size of their foot holes? Or perhaps they are just trying the lower pressure temporarily... I hope.
Incidentally, is it in fact Harrisons who are doing the work, as was suggested earlier?
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I refer you to posts 2 and 3, which explains perhaps what has happened.
Thank you. Yes, I got that. Two of the Great reeds have been moved down to the lower-pressure chests, displacing the Cymbel and Cornet.
But that leaves two empty slides on the upper chest, doesn't it? Are they to be left unoccupied, or will they be installing a couple of new stops?
Edit: ...assuming that the 'experiment' is successful and the trumpets are left in their new positions.
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So from the photo of the stops it appears the Cornet 1.8.12.15.17 and the Cymbel 22.26.29.33 have at least been put to one side.
In a recent recording of the Minster organ, John Scott Whiteley demonsrates this Cornet stop. Compared to the 'Cornet separe' also available on the Great (possible with the addition of the Sequialtera II 12.17, also added in 1993), I'm not sure if we should lament the loss of this Cornet stop. It sounds quite unexciting and dull to me, compared to the Cornet Separe version, which sounds a great deal clearer and much more useful, particularly for Bach.
Here are the two Cornet sounds, one after the other, commencing from approx 1:10 -
I think it's a shame to lose both of these stops. If they really must go, with what are they replacing them? Who just disposes of stops without replacing them with something?
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I believe that as part of an experiment, Harrisons have put the Gt Reeds back on their pre1960s pressure. This has rendered some of the new ranks put in in the 1990s unusable, but I gather that the Minster staff feel that the gain in the speech of the reeds is worth the sacrifice.
I understand that in 1993 Coffin placed all four Gt reeds on a separate (raised) chest on 7" WG. Prior to that, I think that two were on 7" and two on a main chest at 4 1/4".
Presumably, then, either the raised reed chest has had its pressure lowered or some of the reeds have been returned to the main chest (at lower pressure) replacing some of the flues that were on that chest.
Do you have any more details?
Btw, since when did Harrison's become involved with the Minster organ (since the 1930s, of course)?
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It seems to me that the BBC can no longer be regarded as a truly national broadcasting organisation, as it leans increasingly to the left and practises more and more PC activities.
We need a replacement that is truly apolitical and presents, as much as possible, a wide cross-section of musical styles and programmes.
If the public in general funds its activities, then the public in general should be catered for fairly.
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It's not unusual for inter-war organs to have an extra octave of treble pipes on selected stops for use with the Octave Coupler and Unison Off giving a full compass 8' stop from the 16'.
And more recently, too. I believe an extra octave of pipes was added, for this purpose, to the Solo Bassoon 16' at York Minster in, I think, the 1990s.
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They just didn't see the appeal of the organ. A pianist summed it in up after an organ recital I had dragged him to, wailing in desperation, "Can't you vary the expression of the notes?" I explained about stop changes, swell boxes, rubato and the rest, but of course he meant the sort of shaping of lines that an orchestral player, or he as a pianist, would use.
I wonder how these same people regard the harpsichord.
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Sad news.
On an incidental matter, it's good to hear people referring to it as the East Riding. As I understand it, this change of name (back to the original) came about due to local people's pressure.
All we need now is the reinstatement of the North and West Ridings!
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I had a little bet with myself, before clicking the link, as to in which country this is in.
I won!
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All those mutations and an apparently strange choice of stops reminds me of l'Eglise du Chant d'Oiseau in Brussels, and certainly its Positif division. This, too, was designed by Guillou, although he seems to have gone a few steps further at Leon!
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I guess many of us have had an organ-related Epiphany of some kind
That reminds me of when I was at junior school (must be between 7 and 11 years of age) when, just prior to some sort of musical event at our local church, our teacher warned us that the music would be a little slower than we were used to because "the organ cannot play as quickly as Mr Feather (our deputy head) plays the piano"!
I remember even then feeling a little put out that someone should suggest that the organ could not 'keep up' with a piano so, presumably, I must have had some interest in the organ even earlier than that.
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I wonder if any other member of this group has heard of a very worrying development at Zwolle, reported at an Organ Club meeting today. Apparently the church has gone happy-clappy, the organist has resigned and the traditional congregation have decamped to another building. It is intended that the church be used for exhibitions and pop concerts (!) and there is no use for the organ. Both church and organ are of course priceless and one wonders, if true, how this has been allowed to happen.
Holland has a very strict system in place to safeguard historic organs. Government-appointed experts must be consulted before anything is done to them. Having said that, a number of churches are no longer used for the purposes of worship, but the organs are still subject to the same rules.
I'm relieved to hear that this (and other historically important organs) is safeguarded.
On the other hand, if the church is concerned about a lack of income, wouldn't it be possible to encourage attendance of both the happy-clappy and the traditional people (who have apparently gone elsewhere), on different days if necessary. I just feel it's a shame that the organ is no longer used for worship.
Similarly, the church could be used for both pop concerts (if there's nowhere more suitable) and organ recitals - most certainly on different days!
Cocker
in The Organ
Posted
It's very directional, though. A CD I have (can't recall the title without going to look!) was recorded using a microphone suspended high under the central tower (for some reason) and the TM is much less overwhelming compared to the full organ. I understand that it is almost quiet (!) from the quire, but then it does point the opposite way.