John Robinson
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Posts posted by John Robinson
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Come to think of it, as you can see the resonators from the nave floor, they must be arranged horizontally or at least at an angle. Otherwise they'd have to be wound round like a french horn to fit into the space.
The Tuba Mirabilis is, for the most part, horizontal, although the boots and part of the resonators are vertical. In a way, they are indeed 'wound round like a french horn'!
There is an excellent photograph of an internal view of these pipes in the booklet 'The Organs of York Minster.
I could post it on this site if I knew how!
John
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Having just read the new 'LATEST' (read only) forum, I should just like to thank Mr Mander and other moderators (?) for their perseverence in the face of recent problems with the web site and its use. I'm sure we are all grateful for their provision and maintenance of this facility.
John
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I find this a very interesting topic, but note that no comment has been made about 'balanciers'.
As I understand it, their function is to reduce the weight necessary to open the pallet, and their use is generally restricted to the bass end of the soundboard.
I'd be very grateful if anyone could comment on their effectiveness, not only in reduction of weight, but also in respect of response and repetition.
Theoretically, well designed and regulated balanciers should be able to reduce the weight of tracker action, in even a large instrument, to next to nothing, if required. Obviously, there has to be a financial penalty, but do they have other drawbacks?
John
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Did anyone go to the Leeds Organ day a few years ago ?. the town hall organ pushed the digitals onto another planet
David Wyld had his mirabilis recording gear there, but it was never issued, I wonder why 
Peter
I remember attending a 'battle of the organs' at St George's Hall, Liverpool, many years ago. The 'combattants' were Noel Rawsthorne and Carlo Curley on his Allen touring organ.
I heard afterwards that NR had been asked to tone down his registration to allow the toaster to compete.
No contest!
John
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I played St Paul's decades ago and, unless I'm going senile (quite possible) the swell pedals were of the ordinary variety. As far as I can recall the only time I have ever come across the infinite gradation pedals was on the old organ at Canterbury Cathedral (even longer ago). Your description is correct. If I remember correctly, so long as the swell pedal remains very slightly depressed forward the box will continue to open slowly until fully open. The further you press the pedal the faster the box opens. To stop it opening, you have to return the swell pedal to a centrally sprung position (at least I think it was sprung). To close the shutters you used your heel to move the pedal in the opposite direction. What I do remember is, it took some getting used to!
I suppose with these swell pedals you could engineer a slow crescendo during a double-pedal passage by engaging the pedal a tad just before you start it.
I think Liverpool Cathedral had/has them.
John
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Incidentally, I should not wory too much about an university having spelling mistakes on an apparently 'official' form, Friedrich - in my experience, schools and univeristies are often the worst offenders.
I was perusing the staff notice-board at school to-day and, in a memorandum from the HM, there was a hyphen missing, the lack of an upper-case character and one incorrect use of an apostrophe. Perhaps he was formerly a grocer.... Nice chap, though - so I did not complain!
And, in my experience, local education authority inspectors - one, in particular, who specialises in English!
John
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Talking of streets, there are some interesting shop window displays around the Oude Kirk...
Reminds me of the day, many years ago when I was quite naive, taking out my camera to photograph the Oude Kerk, in all innocence.
All the nearby 'shop windows' were rapidly obscured by curtains. Realising my error, I beat a hasty retreat.
John
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Wasn't St Paul's called the parish church of the Empire about 100 years ago? It's certainly the national church for state occasions.
Except coronations of course!
John
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I was told when I graduated in 1969 from a University in Yorkshire that I had become an honorary Yorkshireman, although a subsequent speaker suggested such was not possible since the word "honorary" (implying without payment) was not to be found in any locally available dictionary. A vile calumny, doubtless, though I do seem to remember "if tha' does owt for nowt do it for tha' sen" being said more than once in my hearing.
I have learned a considerable amount from discussions and posts on this site and am grateful to everyone whose greater knowledge has contributed to the improvement of my own so it would be self-defeating to be "riled" when someone s disagrees with me, or corrects a mistake I have made. That said I do think that in a couple of instances on this site there appear instances of personal animosity being displayed which cannot be explained on the basis of anything publicly posted here, and I would personally prefer it if those with private quarrels kept them private and did not involve the rest of us.
Brian
Brian, I hope you didn't think I meant you when I referred to 'sum'n on't site'. I'm not going to say who, of course. Think about it!
I'd just like to add that none of my posts involve intentional personal animosity against anyone, although I have been told that I do have a rather dry sense of humour. Also, I can laugh at myself and really don't mind too much what people may say about me. But Yorkshiremen, tight-fisted? Come on!
Generally, you should take anything I say with a pinch of salt!
John
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PS : To change subject so as not to anger JR, who originally said, "You can always tell a Yorlshireman, but you can't tell him much..." Genuine question : know the quote but not the originator.
Nay, lad! Tha'll not rile me as easily as sum'n on't site!
'Course ah knew tha were talkin about flyin as in usin't aerofoils to support't weight, but ah were just tryin to be pedantic, like.
Hope ah didn't rile thee ta much!
Besides, yon sayin's perfectly true, though ah don't know who made it up, like.
John
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It can MOVE backwards through the air but it cannot FLY backwards at the same speed as it can FLY forwards (which is what I mean by reversing), and the backwards movement is not possible except at low altitude. This is very useful for operating from non-conventional landing sites but has very limited potential as a means of avoiding any form of missile attack by anything even slightly more sophisticated than the rockets used by the first RAF Typhoons in Normandy in 1944.
But perhaps we should return to the subject of organs
My car can't move backwards as quickly as it can forwards! Sadly, it cannot move sideways, which I would certainly find an advantage when parking!
For God's sake let's return to organs now!
John
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But there are no fighter jets that can fly backwards ! Even the Harrier cannot do that, if by fly backwards you mean put into reverse like a car.
Yes, it can. And sideways. How do you think it can position itself for vertical landing?
But I think we should get back to organs - much more interesting!
John
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Vox Flatularis 32'
I prefer not to go into the whys and wherefores
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"3. If there are both English and Americans, it will end up discussing who saved who's butt in the war."
(Quote)
......And we belgians would have all been buried six feet under the grass had
we not been helped by BOTH the british and the americans.
My own grand-father owed his life having been sheltered in London, while one
of my uncles served in the Royal air force.
So thanks to everyone and.....Peace on earth!
Pierre
You mean that WE contributed something to the war effort?
That's very hard to believe considering what is portrayed in the Hollywood war films I have seen.
Perhaps the efforts of the Russians, amongst many others, may have helped a little?
My apologies. This is an ORGAN forum, after all.
John
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I suppose we have to assume Bach wasn't already married by the time he went to Lubeck. But suppose he'd married Buxtehude's horse - err, daughter, I mean - then succeeded Buxtehude in 1707:
- Having considerable artistic freedom in the bourgeois, liberal and comercial atmosphere of Lubeck, he develops purely instrumental works on an ever-increasing scale for performance at the Abend-Musiken. He becomes the father of the symphony, writing 104 of them in total. In his organ recitals, he becomes known for his improvised multi-movement "symphonies" lasting up to 45 minutes. Some of these works he commits to paper, and twelve have come down to us.
- He is able to tour Europe as an organ virtuoso and symphonist. He visits all the major capitals of Europe, including London, where his symphonies and operas are greeted with wild enthusiasm, and where he makes the acquaintance of Renatus Harris and Christopher Wren.
- In 1727, the Dean and Chapter of St Paul's invite Bach to take up the post of organist following the death of William Croft. Bach consents, on condition that he can have a new organ built. Bach invites Gottfried Silbermann to build an instrument based on Harris's scheme of 1712. The organ has six manuals and pedals and 102 speaking stops. It is substantially intact to this day. A German organ becomes a "must have" for any self-respecting church. Snetzler builds an instrument of 90 stops at the west end of Durham cathedral. There is no insular period in English organbuilding.
- William Boyce studies with Bach. He takes the symphony to unprecedented heights. Some of his symphonies last 90 minutes, and involve huge forces including vocal soloists, choirs and organ. His eighth symphony is performed in the Ranelagh rotunda; there are alleged to be 1000 performers.
- In 1745 Bach becomes professor of music at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of Trinity College. He holds these posts until his death in 1772. Composers from all over Europe flock to Cambridge to study. Famous alumni include Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, Verdi and Richard Strauss.
- In the mid 1800's, the second Cambridge School, founded by Brahms, experiment with twelve-tone music. Richard Strauss becomes noted for the economy of his works, some of which are as short as a dozen notes. His entire output can be performed in a single concert.
- Shortly before his death, Bach donates his collection of manuscripts to the Wren Library at Trinity College. They include not only all his own compositions, but hundreds of works by Buxtehude, including the oratorios, and many works by Reincken, Scheidemann and Tunder, many of which would otherwise have been lost.
- In the twentieth century, Dutch organ enthusiasts flock to England to hear the fine west-end instruments in the great English churches, especially those at Winchester (Snetzler), Lincoln (Hildebrandt), York (Silbermann) and King's College, Cambridge (Gabler) in addition to those at Durham and St Paul's already mentioned.
Very interesting. Just a quick question:
Why did Bach live for another 22 years? It can't have been on account of our world-beating NHS, as it hadn't been conceived yet.
Possibly because, having married Buxtehude's daughter who, apparently, had a face like a bag of spanners (I didn't know this as I never met her), he didn't go on to have thirteen children?
John
- Having considerable artistic freedom in the bourgeois, liberal and comercial atmosphere of Lubeck, he develops purely instrumental works on an ever-increasing scale for performance at the Abend-Musiken. He becomes the father of the symphony, writing 104 of them in total. In his organ recitals, he becomes known for his improvised multi-movement "symphonies" lasting up to 45 minutes. Some of these works he commits to paper, and twelve have come down to us.
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See here:
http://vandenheuvel-orgelbouw.nl/instrumen..._kopenhagen.htm
This said, there might be something at least as interesting the other side
of the Kattegat -in Stockholm-
Pierre
Many thanks. Most interesting.
I'm pleased to see so many mutations, including three sevenths and two ninths, although I'm not so sure about all manual divisions, bar one, being enclosed.
It is interesting that high pressure tubas seem to be becoming more and more popular on the continent. I know Klais has produced several over the past few years. I wonder whether the Royal Trumpet will bear any resemblance to the Mander ones at St Paul's.
Of course the BBC will never countenance anything like this, but we all know their attitude to the organ.
John
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I recently received the details of the new 91 stop organ (5 manual departments) (finished in 2007) for the Radio Concert Hall in Copenhagen. Where is the BBC's? Whither the British Organ in the 21st Century?
Best wishes,
NJA
Could you post details, please?
John
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[i think that the best and most useful Quintaton that I ever came across, was a re-voiced Libelich Gedackt by Brindley & Foster. The re-voicing by Hill, Norman & Beard was ingenious, and involved little more than tacking pieces of plywood onto the existing mouth with glue and panel-pins!
MM
And opening the foot holes, perhaps?
John
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joe clipp is a very fine friend but i must remark that the recorded sound of the corona militaire has yet to thoroughly excite me
I quite agree. The Trompette Militaire at St Paul's sounds superior to me, but better still are the Royal Trumpets - the best sounding stops of their kind that I have ever heard. How much of this is as a result of the acoustical difference between the two buildings, I don't know.
John
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In the late 80s and early 90s a big tidy up of the gallery spaces took place in order to gain some extra storage off the church floor. The SE gallery was earmarked as an ideal area where chairs and staging could be stored out of sight. Unfortunately the redundant pipes and other bits of the Dome chorus needed to be removed to achieve this.
It seems a long climb to carry chairs and staging, or is there a lift?
I still think that this space could have been advantageously used for a distant Echo department (see my earlier post), but I feel I am somewhat isolated in my opinion!
John
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The positive at Liverpool is very good, though I must say that I would have loved to have heard the dulcianas. I think dulcianas can be very useful - for example there is a lovely organ I know in Kent that has 5 8' flues on the manuals, Open Diap and a Stopped on the Swell, and the same on the great plus (you guessed it...) a Dulciana. The latter is really useful as a soft stop that contrasts with the other material. It is really handy when playing with the choir (people not pipes!) too.
With regard to my earlier post and the response from Mr.W - the idea that the addition of a mixture enables one to "play Bach nicely" on the Albert Hall Organ is, frankly, hilarious and demonstrates a mis-understanding of the organ as an instrument in general. Beneath this 'Bach Mixture' there still lurks a monster Willis/Harrison - no additional pipework will truly make it suitable for playing Bach (didn't we learn that lesson the hard way in the 60's and 70's?!). As it is was it played Bach perfectly well - but with a 19th century English accent (and, on this organ, how could one expect anything else?). It's all marvellous of course (these monster organs are glorious fun to play) - but no one has yet provided a coherent justification for the new stop... That it will 'make the organ suitable for the playing of Bach' is a bizarre claim that resulted in the destruction of many a romantic instrument 30 years ago.
Ps. Please don't accuse me of being a 'conservationist' for decrying the new mixture...perhaps you mis-understand the term.
I agree that a quint mixture on this instrument, on its own, will not instantly transform it into a 'Bach organ'.
Nevertheless, it is nice to have at least one pure quint mixture on an instrument, as well as tierce mixtures, if nothing else to provide that sort of sound for the sake of variety. I'm sure it is not the case that the English Romantics never made quint mixtures.
By the way, More Dull Strings, are you not perhaps the erstwhile Leathered Lips under another name?!
John
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what ever became of the pipework in the southeast quarter gallery at st pauls cathedral in london after it was supplanted by new pipes in the northeast quarter gallery when the contraposaune 32 was removed and brought down to the chancel pedal?
I have a sneaking suspicion that it is still there, though disconnected. However, my information may well be out of date and it has possibly been sold on or scrapped. I must say that I can't really see any reason to keep it there.
Hopefully, Mr Mander will let us know.
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Ummmm.... I thought that was what I said!
The Positive section is delightful - and probably very useful.
Sorry, I thought you said Great Organ. I was wondering what a family of dulcianas would be doing on that manual.
As to the usefulness of a family of dulcianas, I can see a purpose on a secondary manual as an echo to the Great but, apart from the largest instruments, I think there are probably far more useful stops with more interesting voices.
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aeolian-skinner reintroduced the harmonic spitzflote and celeste in its later years
it has the advantage of restoring even-numbered harmonics which the tapered body of the regular spitzflote or flauto dolce suppress
the tonal result is a more beautiful and ethereal tonal quality than the flauto dolce alone
after the firm ceased production [et seq]
That little button marked 'shift' will allow the typing of capital letters, if required!
David Wyld had his mirabilis recording gear there, but it was never issued, I wonder why 
Courcelina
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
Motette CD 12191
Apart from several additions, including the ones cited in this thread and some high-pressure tubas, the whole organ was raised by six feet, apparently to increase the output by better reflection from the vaulting above it.
I, too, am pleased that there is now a celeste on the transept organ; a voice that has been lacking since it was first built. It is also interesting that they retained several uncommon mutations, one - 'Aliquot II-III' - of which I would particularly like to know more about its composition. Perhaps someone can help.
This is, in my opinion, an excellent recording in which BOTH organs may be compared. Although one can never be absolutely sure from recordings (for example, microphone positioning), both organs sound very impressive on this CD.
I now await a recording following the installation of the 40" west end tubas due this year, I believe!