Definitive performances?

[MusingMuso]

Fine indeed. But this is more expressive and rhythmic:

 

And I couldn't resist adding this link:

 

 

====================

 

Hey! That's rather good.

 

I like the Karg-Elert, so why did he write so much miserable organ-music?

 

I remember hearing SOME of his "Lake Constance" thingy, and when I was awake I was bored.

 

Does Jonathan Scott have a bladder like a hamster or is he an habitual chain-smoker?

 

He's forever walking on and off in these videos.

 

MM

 

PS: Recorded all of 6 miles away from me.

[Vox Humana]

I like the Karg-Elert, so why did he write so much miserable organ-music?

Because he was a German Romantic.

 

Does Jonathan Scott have a bladder like a hamster or is he an habitual chain-smoker?

 

He's forever walking on and off in these videos.

Well, at least he doesn't wear shades.

[MusingMuso]

Because he was a German Romantic.

 

 

Well, at least he doesn't wear shades.

 

 

==================

 

I think we should have a category for "best pithy answers" of the year!

 

Of course, there are organists, there are showmen (and Diane Bish), there is "Arty" Noble wearing a cape and THEN there was Liberace.

 

"You like my solitaire diamond honey? Take a good look....touch it if you want to....you paid for it!"

 

Whatever happend to showmanship?

 

MM

[DouglasCorr]

==================

 

I think we should have a category for "best pithy answers" of the year!

 

Of course, there are organists, there are showmen (and Diane Bish), there is "Arty" Noble wearing a cape and THEN there was Liberace.

 

"You like my solitaire diamond honey? Take a good look....touch it if you want to....you paid for it!"

 

Whatever happend to showmanship?

 

MM

 

ummm. What do you ware?

[MusingMuso]

ummm. What do you ware?

 

===============

 

I'm afraid I am terribly conventional on the outside: I could be your friendly solicitor or bank-manager.

 

The only slight stir was when I borrowed a T-shirt off my dismally educated young friend, John, when I wanted to do a bit of decorating.

 

I didn't realise when I put it on, but on the back it read: "When you've finished, just put me in a taxi."

 

I thought about wearing it for Mass, but I hadn't the courage.

 

 

MM

[Vox Humana]

Because he was a German Romantic.

In mitigation, I have to concede that I do like Brahms. I also have, like him, a soft spot for Clara Schumann.

 

Talking of Brahms, can anyone recommend a definitive performance of the chorale preludes? I have a CD of Nicholas Danby on the Anneesens at Farm Street, but, although both the playing and the organ are superb, the two do not seem to me to be very happily matched - the organ (or maybe just Danby's registration) seems a bit "hard" for this music. I find these pieces very elusive interpretation-wise and so, it would seem, do most other performers; very few ever seem to project the depth of feeling that one can sense is there. I'm still searching for an interpretation that really "clicks".

[Nick Bennett]

Liszt's Ad Nos played by Jaroslav Tuma in the final of the Nuremberg Competition (which he won) in the 70's and broadcast by the BBC! An absolutely stunning performance that I used to have on tape: I haven't heard it for decades, yet I can still hear the way he phrased the last page to perfection.

[Ian Ball]

In mitigation, I have to concede that I do like Brahms. I also have, like him, a soft spot for Clara Schumann.

 

Talking of Brahms, can anyone recommend a definitive performance of the chorale preludes? I have a CD of Nicholas Danby on the Anneesens at Farm Street, but, although both the playing and the organ are superb, the two do not seem to me to be very happily matched - the organ (or maybe just Danby's registration) seems a bit "hard" for this music. I find these pieces very elusive interpretation-wise and so, it would seem, do most other performers; very few ever seem to project the depth of feeling that one can sense is there. I'm still searching for an interpretation that really "clicks".

Try Jacques van Oortmerssen here & elsewhere. I've tried many but keep returning to this now-classic recording.

[sprondel]

Talking of Brahms, can anyone recommend a definitive performance of the chorale preludes?

Jürgen Wolf, organist at the (now) "Porsche"-Orgel in Leipzig, St. Nikolai, recorded a wonderfully dark and slow Brahms set of op. 122, along with the Reubke, a few years ago, when the organ was still awaiting reconstruction. Even though the action is a bit noisy, the colours of that organ give the music a mournfully, black-veiled air that really is the antithesis of any neo-baroque misunderstanding of these gorgeuos pieces. The Reubke, however comes off a little inert. Anyway, the set appears to be out of trade, but I still cherish it.

 

Best,

Friedrich

[Adnosad]

These comments I would wholeheartedly agree make for interesting reading. The problem is though that any attempt at trying to set a benchmark for " a definitive performance must by its very nature,fail.

 

Ones opinions can only hope to be arbitary at best. There are many organs,organists,venues, recordings, registrations, musical editions, techniques, tempi .................... which I may or may not like but I could certainly never attempt to be able to elevate any of them to the lofty level of being " definitive ".

 

As humans we are hardwired to our own particular likes and dislikes no matter what the genre; and, if we had to explain in an analytical fashion why this should be so we would soon become enmeshed in our own arguments.

 

Like I stated in my intro , such comments make for interesting reading . I could just as much suggest a particular recording, or anything else for that matter, as I could recommend a restuarant whose food / service etc. I had enjoyed. It is all , arbitary. However myself, and everybody else probably ,will be well aware of the self professed " experts " who know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing. All I can say is that it is a truly humbling experience being in the presence or within earshot of such gods walking upon the face of the earth!!

[MusingMuso]

These comments I would wholeheartedly agree make for interesting reading. The problem is though that any attempt at trying to set a benchmark for " a definitive performance must by its very nature,fail.

 

Ones opinions can only hope to be arbitary at best. There are many organs,organists,venues, recordings, registrations, musical editions, techniques, tempi .................... which I may or may not like but I could certainly never attempt to be able to elevate any of them to the lofty level of being " definitive ".

 

As humans we are hardwired to our own particular likes and dislikes no matter what the genre; and, if we had to explain in an analytical fashion why this should be so we would soon become enmeshed in our own arguments.

 

Like I stated in my intro , such comments make for interesting reading . I could just as much suggest a particular recording, or anything else for that matter, as I could recommend a restuarant whose food / service etc. I had enjoyed. It is all , arbitary. However myself, and everybody else probably ,will be well aware of the self professed " experts " who know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing. All I can say is that it is a truly humbling experience being in the presence or within earshot of such gods walking upon the face of the earth!!

 

=============================

 

 

 

Democracy has little place in music, yet over the years, I have heard not one, not two, not a dozen......it is literally dozens of comments about certain performances on record.

 

I would defy anyone to arrive at any different conclusion than that of "definitive" when they listen to Francis Jackson playing the Healey Willan "Intro & Passcaglia" from the Great Cathedral Organ series back in the 1960's.

 

Similarly, Roger Fisher's "Reubke" from the 1970's, which still draws gasps from those who hear it, even if the Chester organ is far from historically correct.

 

I'm sure I would not be alone in a crowd, by suggsting that Heinz Wunderlich plays Reger better than any other.

 

Whether we like it or not, certain things are just marvellous to behold, whether they be great paintings, Shakespeare, Ayrton Senna driving an F1 car etc etc.

 

Surely, it is when something is revisited time and time again,and still remains outstanding across the years; that the word definitive can be considered.....unless it's Florence Foster-Jenkins of course.

 

There are landmarks in all sorts of things, and it is usually the people who KNOW who decide what the particular landmark is.

 

I would suggest that it isn't as quite as arbitary or as subjective as we think.

 

MM

[Adnosad]

=============================

 

 

 

Democracy has little place in music, yet over the years, I have heard not one, not two, not a dozen......it is literally dozens of comments about certain performances on record.

 

I would defy anyone to arrive at any different conclusion than that of "definitive" when they listen to Francis Jackson playing the Healey Willan "Intro & Passcaglia" from the Great Cathedral Organ series back in the 1960's.

 

Similarly, Roger Fisher's "Reubke" from the 1970's, which still draws gasps from those who hear it, even if the Chester organ is far from historically correct.

 

I'm sure I would not be alone in a crowd, by suggsting that Heinz Wunderlich plays Reger better than any other.

 

Whether we like it or not, certain things are just marvellous to behold, whether they be great paintings, Shakespeare, Ayrton Senna driving an F1 car etc etc.

 

Surely, it is when something is revisited time and time again,and still remains outstanding across the years; that the word definitive can be considered.....unless it's Florence Foster-Jenkins of course.

 

There are landmarks in all sorts of things, and it is usually the people who KNOW who decide what the particular landmark is.

 

I would suggest that it isn't as quite as arbitary or as subjective as we think.

 

MM

 

 

I enjoyed reading your comments/observations on this matter. The examples which you have quoted are indeed excellent if not exemplary but I still ponder on the issue of decreeing the term " definitive ". The application still involves a reasonable amount of microscopic hair -splitting.

 

I would be very interested to know the definition of, " it is usually the people who KNOW who decide what the particular landmark is ". There is a general consensus as to outstanding quality/ performance etc. regarding the activity/ work under review but for the reasons I originally stated our definitions can at best only be arbitary, or subjective even.

 

 

I am certainly one for indulging in self-deprecation but I think I can place my hand on my pectoral and say that " I know what is best ". By implication that has to mean that we all know what is best but eventually we are all going to differ unless we align our prejudices,fetishes, or whatever we want to refer to them as, with the same supporters club.

 

In other words we end up going round in circles - which is ok by me since it provokes stimulating debate!

[MusingMuso]

I enjoyed reading your comments/observations on this matter. The examples which you have quoted are indeed excellent if not exemplary but I still ponder on the issue of decreeing the term " definitive ". The application still involves a reasonable amount of microscopic hair -splitting.

 

I would be very interested to know the definition of, " it is usually the people who KNOW who decide what the particular landmark is ". There is a general consensus as to outstanding quality/ performance etc. regarding the activity/ work under review but for the reasons I originally stated our definitions can at best only be arbitary, or subjective even.

 

 

I am certainly one for indulging in self-deprecation but I think I can place my hand on my pectoral and say that " I know what is best ". By implication that has to mean that we all know what is best but eventually we are all going to differ unless we align our prejudices,fetishes, or whatever we want to refer to them as, with the same supporters club.

 

In other words we end up going round in circles - which is ok by me since it provokes stimulating debate!

 

==========================

 

 

Your penultimate sentence is very significant, because we all differ in many ways and, of course, none of us are without prejudice and even personal fetishes about this or that style.....but....

 

If we consider the word definitive, it seems to be a special word, more often than not used as an adjective, which implies a multi-layered combination of other appropriate adjectives,such as:-

 

“authoritative"

 

“of great excellence”

 

“irrefutable”

 

“reliable”

 

“most significant”

 

“superlative”

 

“greatest”

 

You asked what I meant by the following:-

 

" it is usually the people who KNOW who decide what the particular landmark is ".

 

Well,I mentioned the late Ayrton Senna driving a Formula 1 car,(especially in very wet conditions), and when I suggest that his performances were way and above all those around him, I have to be aware not only of his considerable abilities, but also the variables.

 

Was his car better than all the rest, or lighter, better set-up for the conditions or were there other factors which gave him an advantage?

 

Well, the answer has to be 'no' on all counts, and it is ONLY with a background knowledge of the possible variables that the questions can be answered with any degree of certainty. However, even then, the permutations of all those variables can sully the argument and raise still more questions. However, when the same thing happens time and time again, a conclusion has to be reached that Senna was the greatest, most authoritative, most effective, bravest and most cempetitive driver of his generation.....a multiple of appropriate adjectives.

 

So taking a slightly different example, what about Francis Jackson's recording of his own "Toccata, Chorale & Fugue?"

 

 

It has the authority....he wrote it.

 

It has the accuracy....he wrote it

 

It was performed on the organ for which it was written.

 

It is musically convincing from the first to the last note.

 

I KNOW these things because I happen to know them as facts.

 

So could this be the definitive standard?

 

I would suggest yes, because the moment the music moves elsewhere, it changes in so many ways.

 

Perhaps what we really mean by "definitive" is that which "defines" a particular time, place, circumstance and performer....no more and no less....and which stands up to the scrutiny of peers, academics and the combined critical faculties of those who listen from a position ofknowledge.

 

What I can say with some degree of certaintity,is that the "definitive" performance is something very special,and probably only comes around once in a blue moon....or every pearl sky....take your pick.

 

MM

[David Drinkell]

I'm not sure whether this is strictly within the scope of this thread, but I picked up a CD on a second-hand shelf a few years ago called 'The World of Psalms'. The first track is King's (Willcocks), the second Westminster Abbey (McKie, Preston at the organ) and the remaining fifteen St. John's College, Cambridge (Guest, Bielby and Scott at the organ). It's interesting to compare the St. John's interpretations with those on the first two tracks, but to my mind this is psalm singing to absolute perfection. Apart from that, the rich subtlety of the accompaniments is stunning, particularly John Scott's on the later tracks. In particular, the added intensity of an extra pedal stop makes so much difference at certain points.

 

This is just a cheap compilation (I think it cost me five bucks secondhand) from original recordings made in 1963, 1966 and 1977, but I'm hooked on it and still find I learn by listening to it.

 

The old St. John's organ sounds mightily impressive - it seems to me that the new one is a similar conception but 'made fully perfect' without having to coax old pipes into making new noises.

 

There are some wonderful chants by Hylton Stewart, too - something of a George Guest speciality. A composer who, in his own small way, might reward some re-evaluation.

[MusingMuso]

I'm not sure whether this is strictly within the scope of this thread, but I picked up a CD on a second-hand shelf a few years ago called 'The World of Psalms'. The first track is King's (Willcocks), the second Westminster Abbey (McKie, Preston at the organ) and the remaining fifteen St. John's College, Cambridge (Guest, Bielby and Scott at the organ). It's interesting to compare the St. John's interpretations with those on the first two tracks, but to my mind this is psalm singing to absolute perfection. Apart from that, the rich subtlety of the accompaniments is stunning, particularly John Scott's on the later tracks. In particular, the added intensity of an extra pedal stop makes so much difference at certain points.

 

This is just a cheap compilation (I think it cost me five bucks secondhand) from original recordings made in 1963, 1966 and 1977, but I'm hooked on it and still find I learn by listening to it.

 

The old St. John's organ sounds mightily impressive - it seems to me that the new one is a similar conception but 'made fully perfect' without having to coax old pipes into making new noises.

 

There are some wonderful chants by Hylton Stewart, too - something of a George Guest speciality. A composer who, in his own small way, might reward some re-evaluation.

 

============================

 

 

 

I'm sure it is within the scope of this thread, and for no other reason than personally having heard the combination of George Guest conducting, and John Scott at the organ, live in St John's, I wouldn't mind in the least if someone suggested that this was "definitive" psalm-singing. (I'm not sure that anything conneceted with speech-rythmcould ever be considered definitive, but who cares?)

 

A marvellous era indeed, when many choirs sought to reach for the same high standards: now almost completely gone outside the confines of cathedral music.

 

Of course, the stories about George Guest always make for entertaining and amusing conversation; especially the one when he got the potential choral scholar very drunk after interviewing him, so that he wasn't in any fit state to attend the later interview at King's College.

 

MM

[David Drinkell]

============================

 

 

 

I'm sure it is within the scope of this thread, and for no other reason than personally having heard the combination of George Guest conducting, and John Scott at the organ, live in St John's, I wouldn't mind in the least if someone suggested that this was "definitive" psalm-singing. (I'm not sure that anything conneceted with speech-rythmcould ever be considered definitive, but who cares?)

 

A marvellous era indeed, when many choirs sought to reach for the same high standards: now almost completely gone outside the confines of cathedral music.

 

Of course, the stories about George Guest always make for entertaining and amusing conversation; especially the one when he got the potential choral scholar very drunk after interviewing him, so that he wasn't in any fit state to attend the later interview at King's College.

 

MM

 

George didn't have much time for modern speech rhythm, where the first bar-line comes fairly early, and his pointing might be considered old-fashioned, but the way the choir sang for hymn was absolute magic. He said himself that a good choir-trainer could make any sort of pointing sound effective.

 

I've done the Cambridge Sprint (King's at 5:30, John's at 6:30) many times - still do if I'm that side of the Atlantic in term-time - but I am a bit too young to have heard the Guest/Scott combination. What always stood out for me was the tremendous regard - love is not too strong a term - which radiated from the choir when George was carving, and which showed in the music.

[MusingMuso]

What always stood out for me was the tremendous regard - love is not too strong a term - which radiated from the choir when George was carving, and which showed in the music.

 

 

 

========================

 

 

Yes!

 

MM