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New York's Riverside Church

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A case of big car syndrome

 

So - I will not mention the thing that usually goes hand-in-hand (as it were) with big car syndrome.

 

Suffice it to say that men who drive mini clubmans do not normally suffer from this.

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A case of big car syndrome

 

===========================

 

If I may be so bold.......... :)

 

I would suggest the Steve that he doesn't post long specifications of American organs: not because they are irrelevant or uninteresting, but because they are so very long and space-consuming. It would be far batter to re-direct us to URL's where such things can be read by those for whom such things are compulsive reading.

 

Actually, the Riverside organ is one of the more interesting, for it has undergone something of a metamophisis in recent years and the acoustic of the church has been improved.

 

The point I, and most other organists would make, is that a paper specification counts for nothing, and everything depends on the skill or otherwise of the builder and tonal-artist. Unfortunately, that cannot be listed on paper or on a computer-screen.

 

One thing I have noticed about this discussion board is the almost total silence when it comes to the more important German instruments of the romantic period; though Pierre does often mention E F Walcker.

 

I wonder if Barry Jordan or anyone else knows how many of the really big Steinmeyers are still in original condition?

 

Back in the 60's, when the BBC broadcast organ-recitals from all over the world, I recall being very impressed with organs such as those in the Meistersangerhalle at Nurenburg.

 

Do these instruments still command the respect they deserve?

 

MM

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===========================

 

 

 

One thing I have noticed about this discussion board is the almost total silence when it comes to the more important German instruments of the romantic period; though Pierre does often mention E F Walcker.

 

MM

 

Dear MM,

 

I may know something about these. After all, I am personally

involved with the german romantic organ tradition -and interested

with the british one, well, maybe a little more than that-

 

But why care? These organs are crammed with Dulciana-like things!

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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Oh no! 

 

Dulcianas?!!

 

:)

 

Yes.

 

Dulciana (stringy), Dolcan, Dolce, Dolcissimo, Fernflöte, Aeoline, etc, while

the equivalent for the Dulciana Mixture is the Harmonia aetherea....Soft

stops by the tons, more by far than in any UK organ.

 

Pierre

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Yes.

 

Dulciana (stringy), Dolcan, Dolce, Dolcissimo, Fernflöte, Aeoline, etc, while

the equivalent for the Dulciana Mixture is the Harmonia aetherea....Soft

stops by the tons, more by far than in any UK organ.

 

Pierre

And why not? Orchestras have to play ppp sometimes, don't they? :)

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
===========================

 

 

 

I wonder if Barry Jordan or anyone else knows how many of the really big Steinmeyers are still in original condition?

 

 

Do these instruments still command the respect they deserve?

 

MM

 

One of the largest (stop-wise) is the vast 1911 Steinmeyer in Christuskirche Mannheim which ISOC has used for teaching with Dame Gillian Weir (Liszt and Messiaen - most evocative for some of his music). This vast (glorious) organ even has a section in the centre of the roof. On the opposite side of the church is a Marcussen of 1988.

 

*I have counted (I think) 92 speaking stops after a little time. In abreviated form it is:

 

Man I

16,16,8,8,8,8,8,8,Quint,4,4,4,Quint,2,Kornet III-VI, Mix V, Cymbel IV, Tuba mirabilis 8, Clarine 4

 

Man II (Schwellwerk)

16,8,8,Unda maris 8,8,8,8,8,4,4,4,4,2,Ses,Larigot,Cymbel III, Clarinette 8

 

Man III (Schwellwerk)

16,8,8,8, Voix coelestis 8,8,8,8,8,4,4,4,4,Quint,2,1, Terz,Superquint,Septime, Plein jeu V, Fagott 16, Tromp. harm. 8, Oboe. 8, Clarion 4

 

Man IV (Fernwerk) - in the dome with shutters

16,8,8,Vox angelika 8,8,8,4,4,2,Progressivharmonika III, Trompete 8, Vox humana 8, Glockenspiel

 

Pedal

32,16,16,16,16,Quint, 8,8,8,4,4, Mix V, Bombarde 32, Pos 16, Trompete 8, Clarion

 

Fernwerk Pedal

Violon 16, Bordunbass 16, Prinzipal 8

 

 

If I remember correctly, the original console (so there has been an updating'/restoration at some time) is still next to the instrument in a vast gallery behind the main altar. The whole edifice is awesome and desgined only for speech. Therefore, it is rather 'dark' for organ music. But it is a great period piece of architecture and organ.

 

Best wishes,

 

NJA

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===========================

 

If I may be so bold.......... :)

 

I would suggest the Steve that he doesn't post long specifications of American organs: not because they are irrelevant or uninteresting, but because they are so very long and space-consuming. It would be far batter to re-direct us to URL's where such things can be read by those for whom such things are compulsive reading.

 

 

I think I might have found the cure for that - see the layout of organ specifications thread.

 

http://web16713.vs.netbenefit.co.uk/discus...p?showtopic=347

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I think I might have found the cure for that - see the layout of organ specifications thread.

 

http://web16713.vs.netbenefit.co.uk/discus...p?showtopic=347

 

If I may also be bold - as far as Steve B. is concerned, it is still probably better if he simply gives the URL for the relevant organ specification. We have now gone from no upper-case characters to everything in upper-case. This is no easier on the eye. We also still have no spaces between words.

 

Speaking personally, I am not sure that I am sufficiently motivated to wade through the chaff to reach the wheat - or whatever the phrase is....

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If I may also be bold - as far as Steve B. is concerned, it is still probably better if he simply gives the URL for the relevant organ specification.

 

I have no opinion. I don't read organ specs from anyone.

 

Until I can find 2 organs built by 2 different companies to the same spec that sound the same, I don't find anything much meaningful in them.

 

I appreciate I'm in the minority here, but my view is that there's so much variation between the tonal qualities and blend of, for example, 2 different builders' open diapasons, that a spec is just a list of names to me.

 

Hence, I say - each to their own! If this kind of thing floats your boat, then good on you. It's just not for me, and far be it from me to ask anyone to stop doing it if someone derives pleasure or interest from it.

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I have no opinion. I don't read organ specs from anyone.

 

Until I can find 2 organs built by 2 different companies to the same spec that sound the same, I don't find anything much meaningful in them.

 

I appreciate I'm in the minority here, but my view is that there's so much variation between the tonal qualities and blend of, for example, 2 different builders' open diapasons, that a spec is just a list of names to me.

 

Hence, I say - each to their own! If this kind of thing floats your boat, then good on you. It's just not for me, and far be it from me to ask anyone to stop doing it if someone derives pleasure or interest from it.

 

Surely one could draw a distinction between fictional/hypothetical/projected specifications and those of instruments that actually exist, where consultation of the specification could be a valid pursuit in order to

 

1/ Discover the available resources of an instrument on which one has been invited to play in order to ensure one selects appropriate music. After all, it has not been unknown for a recital programme to have to be changed at short notice when the recitalist actually met the instrument for the first time.

 

2/Discover the available resources of an instrument which one is proposing to go to hear played by someone else , to discover whether the trip will be worth your while. For example, would you consider it time and money well spent to undertake a round trip of 300 miles to hear an all Bach recital by a player you had never heard of on an unmodified Edwardian octopod. It is quite possible to say yes to this question and still accept that knowledge is usually preferable to ignorance.

 

3/Discover the available resources of an instrument a recording of which one is contemplating buying in order to form an opinion about whether the instrument is likely to be capable of facilitating a performance which would provide you with pleasure rather than one that would cause the CD containing it to find its way on to e-bay within minutes of the CD leaving the player.

 

All that said I do not see how it is possible to disagree with your conclusion that a list of stop names is no indication of what sound will come from the instrument to which the list relates.

 

Brian Childs

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk
One of the largest (stop-wise) is the vast 1911 Steinmeyer in Christuskirche Mannheim which ISOC has used for teaching with Dame Gillian Weir (Liszt and Messiaen - most evocative for some of his music). This vast (glorious) organ even has a section in the centre of the roof. On the opposite side of the church is a Marcussen of 1988.

 

*I have counted (I think) 92 speaking stops after a little time. In abreviated form it is:

 

Man I

16,16,8,8,8,8,8,8,Quint,4,4,4,Quint,2,Kornet III-VI, Mix V, Cymbel IV, Tuba mirabilis 8, Clarine 4

 

Man II (Schwellwerk)

16,8,8,Unda maris 8,8,8,8,8,4,4,4,4,2,Ses,Larigot,Cymbel III, Clarinette 8

 

Man III (Schwellwerk)

16,8,8,8, Voix coelestis 8,8,8,8,8,4,4,4,4,Quint,2,1, Terz,Superquint,Septime, Plein jeu V, Fagott 16, Tromp. harm. 8, Oboe. 8, Clarion 4

 

Man IV (Fernwerk) - in the dome with shutters

16,8,8,Vox angelika 8,8,8,4,4,2,Progressivharmonika III, Trompete 8, Vox humana 8, Glockenspiel

 

Pedal

32,16,16,16,16,Quint, 8,8,8,4,4, Mix V, Bombarde 32, Pos 16, Trompete 8, Clarion

 

Fernwerk Pedal

Violon 16, Bordunbass 16, Prinzipal 8

If I remember correctly, the original console (so there has been an updating'/restoration at some time) is still next to the instrument in a vast gallery behind the main altar. The whole edifice is awesome and desgined only for speech. Therefore, it is rather 'dark' for organ music. But it is a great period piece of architecture and organ.

 

Best wishes,

 

NJA

 

 

Brilliant! Here is your answer, folks, to the question of how to tell us about a very large organ in only a few lines! Thankyou Nigel Allcoat.

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Surely one could draw a distinction between fictional/hypothetical/projected specifications and those of instruments that actually exist, where consultation of the specification could be a valid pursuit in order to

 

1/ Discover the available resources of an instrument on which one has been invited to play in order to ensure one selects appropriate music. After all, it has not been unknown for a recital programme to have to be changed at short notice when the recitalist actually met the instrument for the first time.

 

 

Ah, you've found the flaw in my argument. I do use NPOR to "research" organs on the very rare occasion that I get asked to play somewhere. (I'm not much of an organist - conducting's more my thing).

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I have no opinion. I don't read organ specs from anyone.

 

Until I can find 2 organs built by 2 different companies to the same spec that sound the same, I don't find anything much meaningful in them.

 

I appreciate I'm in the minority here, but my view is that there's so much variation between the tonal qualities and blend of, for example, 2 different builders' open diapasons, that a spec is just a list of names to me.

 

Hence, I say - each to their own! If this kind of thing floats your boat, then good on you. It's just not for me, and far be it from me to ask anyone to stop doing it if someone derives pleasure or interest from it.

Hi Adrian,

 

Well, I'll join you in your minority. I fully agree with your points of view.

 

But I also agree with Brian's points of views. I use NPOR to check the spec of an unknown organ I'm going to play and they do have their uses. On your latter 2 points, I tend to look more at the period/builder and performer rather than a stoplist myself.

 

But unless stoplists are there to illustrate a point someone is trying to make, I find myself wondering why they're on this board. I don't know why certain people have recently taken to posting up specs with very little prose or reason. But each to his own.

 

Neat trick with the code tag, btw!

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