Successful two manual instruments

[John Robinson]

On 26/06/2024 at 21:33, Contrabombarde said:

A complete digression I know, but by what system of stop nomenclature could that organ possibly have a Quintfluit 3 on the Great and a Nasard 2 2/3 on the Swell?

 

 

I agree.  A Twelfth would be more logical.  Perhaps it is, but just badly named?

[Rowland Wateridge]

I can’t offer any musical explanation, but it is not a mistake.  The College website confirms the Quintfluit 3 ft and, perhaps more to the point, Flentrop’s website does also:

https://www.flentrop.nl/orgel/cambridge-sidney-sussex-college/

[pwhodges]

In times past it was a common simplification (easier to engrave, too), and these days it can be a harmless style thing.  What's odd here is having 3 in one place and 2 2/3 elsewhere in the same instrument - that's either confused or perverse.

Paul

[Rowland Wateridge]

But it seems deliberate!  Flentrop’s are hardly likely to make that mistake.  When Contrabombarde first raised the point, I looked at photographs of the console.  Significantly (?) the stop knobs of both omit the pitch!  Then a generic search brought up several 3 ft fluits - notably at Alkmaar.   So, whilst having absolutely no definite answer to offer, it might be artistic historicism.

[innate]

31 minutes ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

So, whilst having absolutely no definite answer to offer, it might be artistic historicism.

As opposed to historic artistry 🙂

[peter ellis]

On 28/06/2024 at 19:46, SomeChap said:

A slightly more careful reading of the original poster Peter's contributions than my previous attempt suggests that what he is really looking for is two-manual instruments which have been successfully rebuilt / augmented for congregational / parish work.

A firm I do know has done a great deal of 'updating' two manual parish organs in the UK is Henry Groves of Nottingham, often under the advice of Paul Hale whose article is linked above, often within tight budgets and often not fighting shy of extension. 

Their 'rebuilds' page is here with, lots of samples of their recent work, and two that caught my eye as being relevant to this thread might be the Quorn  and Newnham rebuilds, among numerous others. 

A few caveats: Groves often use non-standard winding architectures, direct electric mechanism and computer controllers to save huge amounts of physical space and achieve flexible and accessible internal layouts in their rebuilds.  These are innovative, but therefore inevitably have not really been through the test of time, and they may not be available in Australia (where I think Peter is based). Many of their 'rebuilds' are almost new organs but with old pipework. I've never played a Groves organ or rebuild, so I have no idea how 'good' they are (perhaps other members have direct experience?). Also I am very aware that some here consider such updating to be mutilation. 

Also, while I defer to our kind hosts, their recent work does not seem to be documented very extensively on this site at the moment, so I'm not yet very familiar with their contribution in this area (if anyone does have examples to share then do please step in and fill the gap, as I'm sure it would be of interest).    And other excellent organ builders are of course available!

With all that said, Groves's work does appear prima facie to be a constructive match with what Peter was asking to be shown, so I hope the links above help.

SC

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[tl:dr: maybe look into Henry Groves's 2-man rebuilds, but this isn't an advert!]

I’ve been enjoying this thread so much I’ve stayed out of it. Yes I’m in Australia, and I have a two manual instrument, quite sizeable but is called upon to support congregations into the hundreds on a regular basis. Could do with a little more chorus, a little more brightness but there is little extra space and any major work would raise justifiable questions about ripping out and starting again. It’s great to see what can be done and I’m grateful to all for the suggestions. 

[Damian Beasley-Suffolk]

On 26/06/2024 at 21:33, Contrabombarde said:

A complete digression I know, but by what system of stop nomenclature could that organ possibly have a Quintfluit 3 on the Great and a Nasard 2 2/3 on the Swell?

 

 

In the Netherlands it's common to refer to a Quintfluit as 3'. Often they're on the hoofdwerk and quite chunky and produce a rich sound, and intended to produce a prominent solo voice for leading singing. Much Dutch protestant church music is based on psalm singing, requiring a strong leading voice, or "uitkomende stem" as required in some printed music. This is quite different from Anglican psalmody. A quintfluit is rarely accompanied by a higher 1 3/5 tone, although organs often have separate cornet or sesquialter stops. I can think of at least one instrument which does have separated quints, at 3' and 6', for forming a cornet on an 8' or 16' basis. In fact, a single 3' Quintfluit is often enough to turn the whole hoofdwerk into a massive cornet. These are not English 12ths. Sydney Sussex's is therefore in nomenclature a fairly traditional Dutch hoofdwerk.

As for the nasard 2 2/3, well that's obviously for the French swell and means nothing without the terts. A nasard is not a quintfluit. This is clearly not based on a Dutch bovenwerk, positief, or nevenwerk, which are rarely in swell boxes. The nomenclature does have a clear meaning, at least if you're Dutch.

It's another discussion really, but throughout the centuries there were Dutch organ builders who built for protestant churches, and those who built for catholic churches, and they reflect different traditions. It's far too simplistic to say that Sydney Sussex has a protestant hoofdwerk and a catholic zwelwerk with a pedal to suit both, and though I've never heard it I'm sure it doesn't sound like two separate instruments, but you can see the provenance. But the proliferation of such stops means that even on a modest Dutch organ you can play a wide variety of music from surrounding countries quite convincingly, especially England.