pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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They have a plan, and appreciate the history of the instrument, but need to fund raise:
http://www.sjp.org.uk/restoration-project.html
http://www.sjp.org.uk/the-organ.html
The Rector, Rev Lucy Winkett, is perhaps one of the best-known priest-musician-theologians, and a former Precentor of St Paul's Cathedral: http://www.sjp.org.uk/lucywinkett.html
I would not hold your breath in anticipation of this restoration. Whilst having no desire to question the veracity of this statement, or the wishes or enthusiasm of the incumbent, there has been a restoration project here since at least 1982, when students from my college gave a concert in the church, for which a colleague played the toaster. After the rehearsal, I picked up a leaflet, which gave details of what was planned, together with a proposed stop-list, and an appeal for funds. Ths must surely be one of the longest-running (without anything actually happening as a result) organ appeals anywhere, ever.
I would venture to suggest that if the church has not managed to raise enough funds by now, then it is unlikely that this organ will be rebuilt or replaced in the foreseeable future.
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Didn't one of his predecessor only last a few days because his vertigo couldn't cope with the organ loft?
Ian
Or even acrophobia. One could suffer from vertigo in a cellar....
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It was indeed Roger Sayer - have you been in the organ loft at Chester?
Yes - I played for a long week-end of services for a visiting choir a couple of summers ago, with no problems whatsoever. I am fortunate in not suffering from acrophobia. However, I can sympathise with those who do.
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Wimborne Minster has one of these to disable the Chamades with the key secure at all times in the pocket of the current 'Titulaire'. I have also heard of a similar arrangement at a well known public school where the decibel levels of teenage practice can be kept in check by means of a switch and lock.
A
Co-incidentally, I had to have this key duplicated twice, today. It is quite small, and I have now lost two copies. It has been very useful this summer, since the Chamade has been foully out of tune for most of the season, due to very hot weather (for Dorset), interspersed with occasional cooler and rainy days.
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The oddity at St. Sepulchre - the full length Double Open Wood 32' - occurred because the pipes of the present organ came from its predecessor, which was much larger. The story, as I heard it from the late John Mee (who played there regularly) was that Sir Sidney Nicholson selected the best stops from the 3 manual, 46 stop instrument. The result is one of those small instruments that sounds like a much larger one, as in Nicholson's collaboration with Arthur Harrison for the Royal School of Church Music at Chislehurst, subsequently at Addington and Cleveland Lodge, and now at St. Alkmund, Shrewsbury. The St. Sepulchre organ was certainly a remarkable beast and probably deserves restoration in its present form rather than recasting in a more historical manner.
Unfortunately, at the moment, this instrument makes no sound at all. As far as I know, the console has been disconnected, pending a restoration; an electronic substitute is currently in use.
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I might be wrong, and I apologise if I am, but I think that was pcnd5584 who mentioned that he had that, or something similar, (thinking about it, I think it was 'choir to pub'!) put on an instrument where he was, at the time, organist.
He also mentioned that he intended to have, when the Minster organ at Wimbourne is restored, 'Pulpit trapdoor' - very good!
You are indeed correct, SL. We are currently in discussion regarding the rebuilding of the Minster organ - I have already mentioned the 'Pulpit Trapdoor' stop (which I want connected and fully operational....)
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I appreciate that the RCO are trying to reflect more closely the practical realities of the organist's job, but surely the old tests were more realistic in requiring one to be able to do these things with no notice? One isn't always given prior warning, especially at rehearsals. Not all choirmasters think ahead properly and, in any case, they may need to respond to situations arising. "I think we'd better have this motet accompanied, please." (It was in five parts without a keyboard reduction.) "Can we have this hymn down a tone, please?" "After the last verse you'll have to improvise for a minute to cover the choir's movement." I've had all of these and more shot at me over the years without notice and I'll bet more than a few of us here have too. I no longer play the organ, but a few weeks ago I did find myself using the alto clef while accompanying and helping one of Mrs Humana's pupils prepare for an ABRSM viola exam. We should be able to do these things on the hoof.
I have had similar occurrences, Vox.
About a year or two ago, during the rehearsal for Sunday night's Choral Evensong (with the Gentlemen of the Choir), my colleague made a last-minute substitution for the published anthem. I cannot recall what we were to perform, but we ended up doing The Lord is King, by Boyce. The choir librarian handed out the parts - and I received a figured-bass only organ part. (All of the copies were the same, so swapping would have been pointless.) Since we rehearsed up to about 18:25, there was no time to practise (having only had a bit of a 'top and tail' through edited highlights). It was also taken rather quickly. Fortunately, I managed to acquit myself without anything untoward happening.
Again, occasionally, my colleague will decide that an anthem would be better with accompaniment on a particular occasion. This usually seems to happen with Gentlemen-only services, and almost without exception will include frequent crossing of parts, or having permanently to read the top two staves 'upside-down', as it were.
On another occasion (fortunately only a rehearsal), I was rather tired and commenced playing Harwood's A-flat major setting nf the Magnificat, in G major - only realising a couple of pages in that it 'felt' wrong. However, it made the central G# minor section a lot easier to read.
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As I recall it (from Archibold & Peterson), the manuscript of the Choral no.1 used to prepare the engraver's plates is lost (it definitely wasn't the NYC manuscript which contains some different readings) and so we can't definitely say that the printed registration directions aren't Franck's (or that they are, of course).
I remember once hearing Neil Taylor practising the E major choral at Ely Cathedral prior to a recital. My goodness, did he make the fonds sounds French. I did see his piston setting, but can't remember the details, except that I think it involved coupling down some of the Solo Organ including a string or two.
A friend of mine played some Franck on the Foghorn not so long ago. Despite being the largest organ south of Bristol (until the Buckfast Ruffatti arrives) it lacks a Vox Humana, dear old Harry Moreton having at last exasperated the PCC's patience when he asked for one. Nevertheless my fiend managed to engineer a quite effective one using the Solo Orchestral Oboe and 4' flute. I once heard Andrew Nethsinga produce an even better one using those two stops plus a couple of others, although the result was a bit louder than ideal. I hate hearing celestes used in place of the Vox Humana when the organ doesn't have, or can't fake, one - the atmosphere produced just seems mismatched - but the Swell Oboe is hardly ever a satisfactory substitute either. Yet what other options are there in the absence of a Solo Organ? That's a tricky one, I think.
With reference to the registration directions on the Trois Chorals, as you write, it is virtually impossible to state with certainty either one way or the other. However, the fact that they are both idiomatic to the style and nuance of the music, and that they are perfectly possible to realise on Franck's original instrument (although this would be a comparatively easy task for a pupil of Franck to replicate), suggests to me that they are, if not his own directions, then certainly sympathetic to his wishes.
At the Minster, I can render a passable Voix Humaine with the Swell Hautbois, 4ft. Flute, Vox Angelica and the (fan) Tremulant. On larger instruments, I too have resorted to using the Solo Organ. It is also possible to give a quite Gallic flavour to the opening of the Premièr Choral, on the Minster organ. The Fonds on the G.O. (with the Open Diapason I providing the fullness of a Flûte Harmonique, and the Viole de Gambe as a fair representation of a Gambe) and Swell Organ (including the Hautbois). Only the slightly chiffy Gedeckt on the Positive Organ betrays the instrument's English origins. (Ironically, as far as I am aware, this stop was intended to sound similar to a Baroque German or Dutch Gedeckt.)
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Friends:
Sorry to be thick, esp. if this subject has already been explained, but is there a digital instrument in the chapel during the big job's restoration ? Wondering what we are to hear for this year's L&C broadcast.
Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY
To answer your original question - David Drinkell is correct; a digital substitute has not been employed during the restoration. There are two small chamber instruments which have been used, in addition to more unaccompanied repertoire,
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...And would never pay the £25 for one of their DVD's
Added to which, the programmes are simply too 'popular' to interest me. Yes - I realise that this is probably a necessary commercial tactic; but I wish that Priory would release just one DVD in the series, which does not feature either well-worn 'pot-boilers', or endless orchestral transcriptions, clever though they may be.
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In addition to the useful and correct comments above, I'd like to add that the registrations of Franck's "Chorals" are probably not by the composer himself. Nevertheless, they are very appropriate, but with this knowledge, the performer can afford some more liberties...
This is an interesting point. The series of manuscripts stored in the Bibliothèque Nationale (MS 8707) give many schemes by Franck, for various types of registration - a fair proportion of which are clearly identifiable as referring to his own instrument in Ste. Clothilde, and others, that in the Trocadéro. The manuscript for the Premièr Choral is, I believe, the property of The Pierpoint Morgan Library, NYC. The description given is thus: 'Autograph manuscript, unsigned, dated 7 August 1890. Thirteen pages of music. Dedicated to Mlle Clotilde Bréal. No registration indications. (The manuscript was acquired by Alfred Cortot, sold after his death in 1962 to Robert Owen Lehman, and given to The Pierpoint Morgan Library in 1972.)' 1 However, the engraver's plates for the Premièr Choral and the Troisième Choral are missing, apparently - as are early drafts of these compositions.
Notwithstanding, the registration directions (and it is always better to read these in French and ignore any English 'translations') are appropriate in style (with the caveat supplied by Vox Humana) - and to the best of my knowledge, in the case of the Trois Chorals, are entirely possible to realise on the original instrument in Ste. Clothilde. However, as Vox says, this is really only half of the story. Some years ago, I was with a colleague at the organ of his church, where he was demonstrating the (large Romantic) instrument's capabilities. At one point, he said "And this is my French channel" - and then proceeded to draw all of the 8ft. foundation stops, including the huge (and probably leathered) Open Diapason I, the fat Hohl Flute, and a number of other unsuitable ranks. Unfortunately, he had attempted to follow the letter of the 'law' (as it were) - rather than the spirit.
When playing either the First or Third Choral at the Minster (J.W. Walker, neo-Classical with eclectic elements, 1965), I tend to eschew virtually all of the compound stops, except the G.O. four-rank quint Mixture, which I set to draw with the reeds. Otherwise, I rarely draw anything above 4ft. pitch - other than the Swell Fifteenth, which helps to brighten the rather 'English' 16ft. and 8ft. chorus reeds. Fortunately, the Swell Clarion is rather brighter, and thus is tremendously useful when playing much French Romantic music.
As Sprondel states, the Céleste should never be used unless specifically requested. In the whole of Franck's œuvre, I do not think that he called for this stop more than twice. It is worth remembering that the Hautbois (or Basson-Hautbois) was considered to be part of the 'Fonds'. In larger instruments by Cavaillé-Coll (i.e.: those with divided layes, or 'chests'), this stop was almost invariably sited with the Jeux de Fonds, as opposed to the Jeux de Combinaisons (reeds and upper-work).
1 p. 145; French Organ Music from the Revolution to Franck and Widor; Edited by Lawrence Archibold and William J. Peterson. University of Rochester Press (1995).
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Cavaillé-Coll's Montre pipes were slotted at the top, not to assist tuning but to produce a deliberately different type of Principal tone. In some respects it was midway between those of Gottfried Silbermann a century earlier and contemporary British nineteenth century Diapasons. The latter frequently had a dominant fundamental (first harmonic) stronger than all the others, whereas the second harmonic in those of Silbermann was often the strongest. This made them brighter and more zingy in effect than the British ones. Cavaillé-Coll's slotted Montres usually had the strong fundamental but the effect of the slot was to maintain the levels of subsequent harmonics somewhat higher than those of British builders. Sometimes this effect went as far as the seventh harmonic or so. The result was (is) that there was still enough energy in these higher harmonics to stand out when a flute was added (the flute's acoustic power is concentrated in its fundamental). This prevented the ear from being bombarded with too much fundamental tone, while at the same time allowing sufficient of the Montre timbre to stand beyond it and remain identifiable as a separate acoustic entity. Hence the fabled blending properties among his unison stops alluded to in earlier posts.
All this was quite deliberate. Cavaillé-Coll was probably the most 'scientific' builder of his day anywhere in the world - he presented papers on organ pipe acoustics at the Parisian Academy of Sciences for example. Also his methods and thinking are still available to us in his working papers which have been preserved. It is clear that he knew as much as anyone in his day about what he was doing at the level of physics, not to mention his artistry.
Apparently T C Lewis loathed Cavaillé-Coll's Montre tones, and he wasn't too keen on Willis's Diapasons either, which some (including W T Best) thought were little different to Gambas. Lewis was a disciple of Schulze, but that's another story. Among other things, he wrote a scathing monograph on the subject (of which I was fortunate to find a copy in a second hand bookshop while toiling up the steep hill towards Lincoln cathedral some years back).
CEP
Some good points. Colin.
Slotting the pipes would also have the effect of making the tone a little more 'string-like' (in the organ sense). FHW also occasionally did this to his Gemshorn ranks (which were often cylindrical, instead of inverted conical) - presumably because it was either easier or cheaper. (Although this latter would be odd - he was not known to cut corners or take cheap options elsewhere. He regarded zinc, for example, as "a cheap and spurious metal".)
Your comment with reference to T.C. Lewis and Willis was interesting. At the time of the (start of) the H&H rebuild of the organ in the RAH, the insufficiency of the foundation tone was one of the chief arguments advanced by those who wished to change this instrument. Certainly, after the rebuild was completed, it could not be said that either the clavier or the Pedal foundation work was inadequate as to 'body'. I believe that T.C. Lewis was also not particularly enamoured of FHW's chorus reeds. Quite what he would have thought of Harrison Trombe, I can only imagine.
I still regard the rebuilding and the revoicing of several of the chorus reeds on the organ in Southwark Cathedral as a great error of judgement on the part of HWIII. I wonder if, following the restorative work by Harrisons, it is really possible to state that they sound now as when they were first installed? It was not simply a matter of lowering the wind pressures; in order to raise them in the first place, Willis must surely have had to provide new (and thicker) tongues - and with a slightly different curvature. If this was indeed the case, I doubt that the original tongues were stored carefully, in case it was wished to re-instate them in the future.
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Finally. Thank you, Alastair. I have been looking (and waiting) for this for ages.
It looks on paper to be well-balanced - although the unenclosed section of the Solo Organ appears a little odd. It seems to have acquired the old G.O. reed chorus (from the nomenclature). However, aside from this reservation, I should happily live with this.
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I was listening to the recent BBC Radio 3 Choral evensong online, from Christ Church Oxford. I've heard this choir a couple of times during their tours to Toronto, Canada - they've made no less than 3 trips over here in the last 5 years. The choir is always excellent, and many stellar organ scholars have emerged from there (Particularly Ben Sheen who really is a tremendous player).
Old news to many, but I was disappointed in this broadcast once again by the organ which just doesn't have what is required to accompany settings like the Darke in F canticles, and it only proved marginally more suitable for Walton's Coronation Te Deum, where some of reeds could at least make an appearance from time to time without sounding jarring. The playing was top-notch of course - but how can they put up with an instrument without swell chorus reeds under expression for the purposes of accompanying? I would go as far as saying the organ is simply not fit for this purpose. And all of the reeds make an intrusive, thin, nasal sound and the mixtures come across as shrill on numerous recordings. That essentially leaves flues and principals only for accompanying, and the results, needless to say are very lacking in subtlety and interest, even in the hands of the best players.
Of all the instruments supporting daily choral foundations in the country - is the tonal design of this one the least fit for purpose? Not a comment on the quality of execution of the design, but rather one of suitability... (I know the organ at Magdalene, Oxford has come under some criticism for the kind of design that was opted for, but to my ears both it and Trinity Cambridge are more tonally suited to accompanying that CCO) All of these organs come from a time 30+ years ago when there was great interest in building classical instruments of superior quality, much more true to existing historical instrument than earlier 'neo-classical' attempts, but as a result sometimes seem very out of place and just to uncompromising. That said I'm not convinced the CCO Reiger organ really achieves highly on any level....
Dare I say it - In an ideal world should the CCO organ be replaced with something more suitable? It is very interesting that the tables have well and truly turned in favour of more romantic leaning instruments in choral establishments - judging by recent cathedral organ designs at Llandaff, and St Edmundsbury, Keble College Chapel Oxford etc.
I can appreciate that you dislike the sound of this instrument. However, I have played it for services on many occasions for a visiting choir - and I found it to be both an exciting and versatile instrument. Whilst it may not produce familiar (and therefore 'comfortable') sounds such as 'Swell to 2ft., with 16ft. reed'*, or Swell foundations, plus Hautboy, what it does do is to make one think un-conventionally. One example was when I was accompanying Bainton's And I saw a New Heaven, on a final Sunday Evensong. I ended up with the Récit undulant (and its attendant in-tune rank), the Pedal Bourdon, and the quiet 16ft. flue on the G.O. - which I used for the right-hand solo in the last bar or two, and for the quinted 32ft. effect. The latter was obtained by my elbow, on the lowest A of the G.O. clavier. Apparently it was most effective downstairs.
Whilst the above is perhaps an extreme example, about the only thing I would change is to substitute an Hautbois for the Voix Humaine - assuming that there was both enough height in the box, and that the slide was wide enough to take the pipes. This was about the only register which I really missed. I found the console to be comfortable, and the mechanical action was pleasant and crisp. (Sorry, that makes it sound like bacon. If anyone can think of a more suitable word....)
For voluntaries: whilst it was particularly good for French Classical and German Baroque music, I found that it was versatile enough to cope quite well with a variety of other repertoire, from French symphonic to English Edwardian. However, one did have to be creative with registration - and, again, un-conventional.
I found the opposite problem at Saint Mary, Redcliffe. Whilst this instrument is a joy on which to accompany, I had to be extremely selective and quite un-orthodox when playing Bach. (I really don't like Kevin Bowyer's Bach recording, which he made on this instrument. Whilst his playing was immaculate - and I believe that I understood what he had set out to achieve - I simply hated the sound.) Whilst Redcliffe possesses a wealth of quieter effects of ethereal beauty, and is extremely flexible in its imaginative layout, it also has a lot of registers for which I have never found any use, due to their opaque and over-powerful voicing.
In the end, I suppose that it comes down to a question of personal preference. However, aside from the fact that it would be exceedingly dull if all English organs were largely the same, I cannot endorse your question of whether the organ of Christ Church, Oxford is fit for purpose.
* To quote Ralph Downes - who was actually referring to the rebuilt organ of Gloucester Cathedral.
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According to David Coram in this post (last sentence), it's in Bournemouth.
Paul
PS, further research finds that it was created by pcnd of this parish.
It was indeed, Paul.
I have just (tonight) sent Jenny the information which she requested.
When the Minster organ is finally restored, I am having another just like it ('Choir to Pub'). I shall also be installing a further stop, labelled 'Pulpit Trapdoor'.
And I'm having it connected.
Incidentally: 'formerly of this parish' - unless you mean this board. (I have been back at the Minster for coming on eighteen years.)
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It is also worth remembering that Cavaillé-Coll voiced his Flûtes Harmoniques somewhat differently to those of FHW. The examples extant of 'Father' Willis were slightly harder in tone, and so did tend to quarrel with the Diapasons. However, such stops as voiced by Cavaillé-Coll were of a rather more blending tone. In any case, his Diapason stops ('Montre', or, often in the Récit-Expressif, 'Diapason') were again voiced differently to many English types (although this depends on the builder. There were clearly almost as many types of Open Diapason as there were English builders). Thus it is that, on a 'standard' Cavaillé-Coll instrument, one can draw, on the G.O. the Montre, Bourdon, Flûte Harmonique and Gambe (all at 8ft.), and have a beautiful, transparent sound - which nevertheless has plenty of 'body' - and with a beautifully singing tone.
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I have heard that there was a plan to remove the existing Positive division in the chancel (the only completely new division when the organ was installed at Guildford) and replace it with a more romantic division. This plan has since been reversed and the Positive division is now to remain as it is. The tonal aspect of the rest of the organ is also to remain pretty much the same.
John R
Having heard this instrument (at the hands of a superb accompanist) in services - and having had the freedom of the console in a closed building on several occasions - I regard this as no bad thing. This instrument, although slightly unconventional, hangs together well tonally and has a rich variety of quieter registers, which are ideal for choral accompaniment. The only problem (and it is a considerable one), is that the main instrument is placed between the choir and the congregation, so it is almost impossible to avoid playing too loudly at times - unless one only played on the strings and 8ft. flutes.
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If it's not presumptuous to mention it, after thirteen years at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, St. John's, Newfoundland, I have been appointed to Christchurch Cathedral, Fredericton, New Brunswick. It's a fine, cruciform church, partly by Butterfield, modelled on Snettisham Church, Norfolk, and has a very nice four-manual Casavant.
Congratulations, David. I hope that you will enjoy your new post - and the instrument.
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I note, with interest, that the authorities at Selby Abbey are hoping to acquire the redundant console from the former Harrison instrument in Manchester Cathedral. There is a photograph of the console (sans draw-stop heads, and a largely blank ebony panel on the extreme right-hand side of the console) on the abbey website. It is intended that this will be restored and connected to the Hill/HN&B organ as a Nave console, in the hope that it will encourage people to attend organ recitals - which may well be the case. The lunch-time recitals at Christchurch Priory are generally well-supported, probably partly due to the fact that the Nave console and the player are on full view to the audience. It will be interesting to see if this scheme comes to fruition.
On the subject of the new Tickell instrument in Manchester Cathedral, does anyone know whether there are any further photographs of the installation (or at least the preparation of the site), please? I found a few of the dismantling of parts of the instrument, but nothing else since, except for one of the new console (on Facebook), again minus draw-stop heads.
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Could this be it?
http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=A01167
http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=G01801
I only know it because I saw Paul Derrett installing it in its new home. It's not far from Shrewsbury.
Interesting. I was organist at this church for a while, when I was a student. Even then, the instrument was showing its age and there were some deficiencies in the tonal scheme (and inter-clavier balances), largely due to the fact that a few ranks were extended. However, as a whole it was reasonably versatile and made a good, colourful sound in the church.
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I seem to remember Paul Hale was/is advising on this.
A
For once, I should like to see this restored (if possible) to the way it was left by Harrisons - complete with a fair amount of the previous Lewis instrument.
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... absolutely... and the Vierne will be a good romp too! Didn't they have a new 32ft reed when Exeter was rebuilt? If so, you'll have a chance to hear that in this piece for sure!
The new 32ft. reed (Contra Trombone, an extension of the existing Trombone) arrived at the previous rebuild, in 1999-2000. It is a useful stop and, despite being half-length in the 32ft. octave, is a suitable foundation to the tutti. Low B is an odd, slightly unpleasant note, otherwise the stop is well worth having.
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I read somewhere (Bicknell The History of the English Organ, I think) that Keeton wanted Hope-Jones to build the new organ at Peterborough, but the donor specified Hill.
It is possible that the cathedral authorities had reason to be glad that the donor did so.
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Yes - I saw this scheme a few months ago and, on paper, it looks to be both comprehensive and generally quite sensible. Perhaps it is a shame that so much pipe-work from the previous instrument is scheduled to be discarded. Presumably it was felt that the cost of re-scaling and re-voicing in order to fit in with the new tonal scheme was prohibitive.
It has to be said that, though the previous organ was very exciting for repertoire (particularly the French symphonic school), it was less well-equipped for choral accompaniment, having but one expressive division and a great emphasis on chorus-work and mutations, to the detriment of quieter, accompanimental registers.
The Royal Festival Hall Organ - what if ?
in General discussion
Posted
Just a thought - as far as I know, Manchester Cathedral is not particularly reverberant. It is basically a large parish church, turned cathedral. Salisbury or Winchester would provide a rather better acoustic ambiance. Or, if you really want something very reverberant, but without the annoying, confused sound which is often the case under the dome in Saint Paul's Cathedral, Gloucester Cathedral is even better, at a round eight seconds in an empty building.