pcnd5584
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Posts posted by pcnd5584
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I used to have an LP of the "old" incarnation of Ely, played by Arthur Wills. I can'[t remember what was on the disc, but I'm sure he found some "French" sounds - may have been for a Daquin Noel.....? I have never fully understood the intended use or been aware of the actual effect of the Horn Quint.....?
Neither have I, Andrew. As far as I know, the H&H/Mander at the RAH still has the Quint Trombone (10 2/3) on the Pedal Organ and the large instrument in Johannesburg Town Hall still possesses the Horn Quint on the Bombarde section of the Solo Organ (or whatever it is called). However, it is interesting to note that the Horn Quint is one stop which was not re-instated at Ely Cathedral.
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... In his autobiography, Arthur Wills stated quite categorically the opinion that an organist should be able to fashion his instrument to suit his taste. I can't imagine how he thought that he was doing anything to recreate the old Hill sound. The reeds, of course, had been altered some time before the rebuild (and some mutations improvised from existing ranks on the Choir Organ) and lowering the pressure had made them extremely loud. I don't think either Arthur or Sam Clutton, the consultant, could be said to be particularly sympathetic to the 1908 Harrison, and both were very keen on French music of all periods.
I once remarked to Paul Trepte that the Wills rebuild had made the organ frighteningly loud, and he said that there were times when one needed that amount of power to get the sound down into the nave. The 1908 organ would not have been designed with this particularly in mind. All the same, I reckon that Wills and Clutton (and Michael Howard before them) had tone in mind and the increased volume was a natural result of that, bearing in mind the scaling. There was a drawstop allowing one to transfer the Swell reeds to the Pedal, which at least gave a manageable amount of reed tone down there.
Firm sub-unison tone is, I think, essential for a lot of French Romantic music - a fact that was often ignored from the sixties onwards - and a manual 32' could be a logical inclusion on a very big instrument. I was sorry when they ditched the one at Peterborough. I also feel, though, that open tone (as at Liverpool) makes a better blend than a bourdon (I feel the same about 16' flues - I've rarely met a 16' Bourdon that I really liked!).
With regard to Arthur Wills, I doubt that he had a moment's thought in the matter of restoring the 'Hill' sound at Ely Cathedral. As you observe, both he and Cecil Clutton were extremely fond of French music and wished to have an organ which could fulfill Wills' desire to play much of this repertoire.
Is it the case that, once again, this instrument is not quite able to cope with a full building on great occasions?
in the matter of 16ft. flues on the claviers, I find that a well-voiced Quintatön is often preferable to a Bourdon - although if it is a choice between having or not having any kind of 16. clavier tone, I should still prefer to have a Bourdon; at least there is then some kind of sub-unison tone.
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... and a 16 foot Trompette on the Recit, with a suboctave coupler from Recit to GO. ...
In fact, such stops are relatively rare on a small two-clavier Cavaillé-Coll. Even the rather larger three-clavier instrument at Ste. Clothilde (as originally built) did not possess any stop at sub-unison pitch, either reed or flue, on the Récit. For example, the organ in the church of Saint-Louis d'Antin, Paris, has three reeds on the Récit-Expressif (Voix Humaine, Basson-Hautbois and Trompette) - all at 8ft. pitch, whereas the 16ft. Bombarde (not Trompette) is found on the G.O., and completes a family of three reeds. Interestingly, whilst it has an 'Octaves Graves G.O.', there is no sub-octave coupler for the Récit.
Another example, the organ in the church of Saint-Jean-Baptiste, Long-sur-Somme has two 16ft. flues on the G.O. (Violoncelle and Bourdon), but a solitary Basson et Hautbois (8ft.) on the Récit.
Where Cavaillé-Coll did insert a 16ft. reed on the Récit of a smaller instrument, it was more likely to be a slender Basson - or even a Cor Anglais.
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Re the book - 'tried to get into it but eventually gave up. I would have probably have given up and moved somewhere more 'in sympathy' in the circumstances too!
A
I have read about three-quarters of the book (which appears to be self-published). I shall finish it, but I only got it yesterday.
The first thing which occurs to me is that he may not have done himself any favours by writing it. The second is that, whilst there appear to have been regular instances of either mis-management or non-management by various persons associated with the cathedral, the author is also bluntly candid in his opinions of almost everyone else in the book - occasionally to the point of extreme discourtesy, if not actual rudeness*. On the other hand he does, at many points in the text assure the reader of the high quality of his own organ playing (and, at one instance, his very high Intelligence Quotient). In one such illustration, Dr. Smith informs us that he is the most well-qualified cathedral organist in the country† and so he put himself forward to be considered for a number of recitals in prestigious venues. There is nothing actually wrong with this - clearly he needed to supplement his rather low salary; however, it comes across as self-aggrandisement. Later, we are reminded that he is one of only about four cathedral organists who holds the ADCM . For the record, I note that he failed to include either Roy Massey (then in charge of the music at Hereford Cathedral) or Dr. Arthur Wills (at that time, Organist and Master of the Choristers at Ely cathedral). In any case, there are a few former cathedral assistant organists who also hold this diploma - one such is Paul Morgan (not long retired from Exeter Cathedral, who I believe sat the examination at the same time as Roy Massey). Another is Ian Hare (late of Cartmel Priory, now of Crosthwaite Church, Keswick), who is similarly qualified.
It further occurred to me to wonder if he had approached those professional colleagues whom he listed as appearing on various short-lists for prestigious posts (but who failed to gain those positions) if they minded this information being disseminated in book form. I should have thought that the publishing of confidential short-lists at any point was rather bad form - particularly in view of his comments regarding other interviewees and their reasons for applying for various jobs. (My colleague made the same point this morning, during the sermon.)
There does seem to be rather a number of instances where Dr. Smith candidly lets us know how good an organist (and choir trainer) he is. There are also many occasions where, in his dealings with the cathedral clergy and other officers, he perhaps comes across as intransigent and somewhat arrogant. Clearly I have not worked at Llandaff, but I also note the comparatively large number of jobs in other cathedrals (and some educational institutions) for which he failed even to be short-listed. I am aware that we are informed that his references were 'excellent' or 'very strong' - but I do wonder whether in fact Dr. Smith had also acquired a less-flattering reputation than the one he attempted to portray in the book.
Certainly the recent developments at Llandaff Cathedral do not inspire confidence; however, it appears that the incumbent clergy (particularly successive deans) have for decades regarded Llandaff primarily as a parish church, with themselves as the parish priest. I wonder if the situation is in reality rather more complicated than the notion of 'musically un-appreciative' clergy dispensing with an expensive item of annual running costs [the choir]. In any case, in a small, easy to miss reference, Dr. Smith does hint that after the opening of the M4, Llandaff became something of a backwater, having previously received around twelve thousand visitors annually.
One further point - in this current climate, I think that he was rather unwise to include the paragraph in which he expressed a desire to see young African girls in a state of undress, with them clothed in nothing but coloured beads.Charity leads me to ascribe a certain naïveté to his narrative at this point.
Whilst it is true to say that Dr. Smith and his family did appear to have several quite genuine grievances (such as the failure of the cathedral authorities either to remunerate him satisfactorily as the years progressed, or their extreme reluctance to carry out essential maintenance on his accommodation). there are also several occasions where the author comes across to me as perhaps a less attractive personality than might have been perceived.
† 'Aware that my qualifications as an organist were higher than those of anyone else in the country'. p.63; At Cross Purposes; Michael Smith. Self-published (through Amazon); 2014. (In any case, I doubt that he was correct; take just one example: Paul Morgan, MA (Oxon), BMus (Lond.), FRCO(CHM), ADCM, ARCM, LRAM, who was at that time the Sub Organist of Exeter Cathedral.)
* Perhaps the most obvious instance is his assessment of the organ playing of his one-time assistant, Anthony Burns-Cox, which I thought was unnecessarily discourteous. He goes on to suggest that that Mr. Burns-Cox lasted barely any longer in his subsequent appointment at Romsey Abbey than he had at Llandaff. For the record, I note that Mr. Burns-Cox held the post at Romsey from 1980-90.
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Indeed - this could well make interesting reading. Thank you.
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In a post on Christmas Day on the Facebook Organists' Association group, Doug Tang confirmed the registration here, different between Radio & TV versions:
Carols from Kings (TV): Tuba, unison off, octave, solo to pedal...
9LC (Radio): Gt 4' Octave Tromba, Pd 4' Octave Tromba (they're different) and the 4' Schalmei.
Nice to have the choice...!
Indeed - although I am surprised that it was thought worth drawing the Schalmei in addition to two high-pressure Trombe ranks. (Those on the G.O. speak on around 450mm w.g. - approximately 18 inches. At least these stops are under expression, in the Solo box.)
The Pedal 4ft. Tromba, being derived from the G.O. Contra Tromba (16ft.), speaks on the same pressure, but would have a slightly different scale and voicing. However, I am still wondering if the Schalmei was actually audible.
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Though without the two extended interludes featuring the fleetly footed tuba - they do appear in the single sheet version.
Indeed - althoug, having looked at a copy earlier today, it would be easy to re-arrange it: play the solo reed part on the pedals and a progression of seventh chords (as appropriate) with the left hand. (I only watched it once, but as far as I can remember, I think that this was what Douglas Tang was doing with his left hand at this point.)
A further confirmation of this was that, immediately prior to this section, the other organ scholar pressed a piston, which cancelled all the Pedal stops. I presume that this was the stepper piston, which simply advanced through the general pistons.
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Also, St Mary Magdalene Church, Paddington
And at Saint Luke's Church, Chelsea. (Although I note that this console has been moved from the east end of the south gallery, to the west end of the north gallery.)
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I think the reed solo might have been played on the pedals....
Indeed - the piece is published in Carols for Choirs, Volume Five.
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Simon Earl - Assistant DOM at Wakefield Cathedral to be DOM at Christchurch Priory.
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Indeed - although I had understood that Wakefield ceased to have an Anglican cathedral last Easter.
(Or is it to be so next year - I cannot now recall....) It is still calling itself a cathedral on its website - and advertising for a new DofM; however, according to information received earlier this year, two cathedrals were to be 'lost', one of which was Wakefield. Does anyone have any further (or more accurate) information, please?
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That all sounds quite possible, pcnd, and apologies if my previous post sounded a bit churlish. The Sheldonian was the first building designed by Wren—I wonder if it’s always had poor ventilation or whether the original design worked (for its time) and subsequent changes (installing heating, closing vents?) have caused the problems. I remember Paul Hale demonstrating the old organ to me in the mid 70s and, in a relatively empty building it sounded pretty in tune.
Not at all.
You may well be correct regarding heating and the closing (sealing?) of vents or windows.
As far as the pipe organ is concerned, has all of the pipework been removed? The NPOR states 'Organ destroyed or broken up.' I know that the console has not been there for many years, but I wonder, is the Jackson case totally empty - except perhaps the building frame, in order to brace it?
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...Others more knowledgable than I can speak to how temperature affects the pitch of pipe organs, and we all know that hot air rises, but there is nothing particularly exceptional about the position of the organ in the Sheldonian that would make the pitch of a pipe organ there more unstable than many organs in buildings without climate control. ...
Apparently, the building is not well-ventilated; perhaps when it is full during degree ceremonies, there is an abnormally large increase in the temperature near the ceiling and at gallery level Presumably the building is heated for winter ceremonies. I was informed by a colleague who had played for a number of events on the old pipe organ that the tuning at such times became extremely bad.
Your comment regarding the position of the instrument is not entirely correct - this instrument is virtually jammed up against a flat wood-panelled roof, with little room for air circulation. The pipes would have been very much boxed-in. The scales and tight layout of the case pipes would also have impeded air circulation. Neither is the case particularly large for the contents, so the interior layout was probably quite cramped.
Whilst there are perhaps many instruments with cramped conditions, or little room for air circulation, perhaps it was this particular combination of a number of adverse factors which resulted in particularly unstable tuning.
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As far as the Anglican church is concerned, it seems that the parts which are attracting larger congregations are the Clap-Hands-Her-Comes-Charlie folk and the Cathedrals. ...
Interesting - is this more indicative of Canada, David? I saw a survey in something a few months ago (it might have been the Church Times), which suggested that the only places in which the congregations are growing in number (in the UK) are the cathedrals and those churches which still stick largely to cathedral-style worship and music.
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Given their choice at the moment is an electric instrument in an apparently parlous state, they would be much better off with hiring a new digital instrument! 35 years ago I remember playing concerts as a member of the OUSO in the Sheldonian when the previous pipe instrument was still very much playable but when we played Elgar’s Cockayne with its impressive organ part we decamped to the Town Hall. There are many more prestigious symphony orchestra venues in the UK that deserve a proper modern concert hall pipe organ. The orchestras that play in the Sheldonian are either smaller or less noted. And with my proposal the Sheldonian could become a major centre for the performance of baroque music with a proper and properly-sized baroque organ.
The other problem is that of tuning. The former pipe organ was also used at graduation ceremonies (which generally took place during the summer). The pipe organ at this time was unpleasantly out of tune - and not just the reeds. The situation was exacerbated by the position of the instrument - fairly high up in the building.
Incidentally, with regard to the case, the side wings (formerly in the window recesses) were removed years ago.
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As if Sotheby’s would give such prominence to a lot with an estimate of £150. The proof-reading seems fine.
Unless it was by Canaletto - and was insured by the new purchaser for ten million quid....
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Resurrecting an old thread, but has anyone ever come across any organs where there is a 'Swell to Pedal Combination Coupler' but not the more usual 'Great & Pedal Combinations Coupled'? I played in the NZ Organists' association playing competition in June this year and the three-manual organ which was used had this... And the Great & Pedal pistons were not permanently coupled.
Several Harrison organs have both of these devices. Exeter Cathedral is one example. In addition, the Mander rebuild of the Chichester Cathedral organ also has both - but Alan Thurlow was formerly Sub Organist at Durham Cathedral, which is presumably where he met the first coupler.
However, Harrisons normally engraved the stop 'Pedal to Swell Pistons' - and wired it so that it was possible to set a different set of Pedal combinations, which would balance the settings of the Swell pistons.
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I'm afraid I must disagree, most respectfully, as always, here.
I believe 'white and gold' can be tasteful, if not elegant. (That is, unless my taste 'buds' have deserted me.)
For instance: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Alkmaar_organ.jpg
Of course, it could easily, in the wrong hands, descend into pure kitsch- and, going by the console, your fears may very well have borne fruit.
It can indeed look good - the picture of the case at Alkmaar looks spectacular.
However, given that the stonework around the tribune at Nôtre-Dame is predominantly quite dark and that the case is wide, I do not think that it would look quite as good here. The case, as it stands, presents an elegant and dignified aspect. In any case, as you observe, given what now passes for the console, I think that any changes to the decoration of the case could end up looking quite odd.
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I am not. If I recall correctly, the current loft, rather elegant as it looks, is still Viollet-Leduc’s construction, and it was never meant to bear a Positif-de-dos, even if the beast turns up in some of the drawings form the « restauration ». From what I have been told, even moving around up there can become awkward because the wooden construction tends to swing and sway with the steps.
Furthermore, Viollet-Leduc had the base of the main case reduced in height – again if I recall correctly, because his loft was situated higher up, and he did not want the case to obstruct the view of the rose window. That’s why, in proportion, today the case looks as if it ducks slightly.
If one wanted to reinstate the Positif-de-dos in matching proportions, i. e. in full eight-foot height, one would have to
a. dismantle the organ in its entirety, for the first time in its history,
b. build a new loft on a lower level, stronger and more bulky,
c. to reconstruct the base of the main case, and re-erect the historic parts, with all of Cavaillé-Coll’s extant Barker machinery, bellows etc. one storey up,
d. to come up with a convincing concept, musically and technically, for a division that never was a part of what Cavaillé-Coll actually built.
Of course, you could say that of the current Solo and Résonance divisions too (apart from the latter expanding Cavaillé-Coll’s idea of working with partials which played a major role in this organ). But they, God only knows how, found a home within the existing structure.
And all this is completely ignoring any concerns regarding the whole thing, building and organ, being classified « monument historique ».
Yes, I can imagine why no-one wanted to turn the cathedral’s main entrance into a three-year, or rather five-year, construction site.
Best wishes,
Friedrich
I agree.
If the Positif-de-dos case were to be returned to the tribune as it now stands, as Friedfich states, this would spoil the present proportions of the main case. In addition, the tribune is quite deep and the Positif would be some distance from the main organ. There would also be the problem of the console: should it be turned through 180 degrees, or left as it is?
Since the present Positif division (in the main case) is perfectly adequate, I cannot see any real need to re-instate the former case. (If it, and the main case, were also to be repainted white and gold - which was another of Cochereau's wishes - it would look hideous, if not actually gaudy.)
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And Latry will perform the "Sacre du printemps(Rite of Spring)" saturday the 27th of september (8.30 pm, free entrance) together with his new spouse and former student Shin Young Lee.
I'm curious to listen again to the restored organ of NDP....
I would be interested to hear your opinion of the rebuilt instrument, after the recital. I still prefer the previous console - and cannot imagine why it was thought necessary to replace the previous one. However, it will be interesting to learn what you thought of the organ, with its 'new' Resonance division.
This video
is worth a look. Now I know to where the original Cavaillé-Coll console has been moved. -
Thank you for the information, Stephen.
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Hi
My piano & organ teacher carried a portable metronome - a device like a tape measure, but with calibrations for musical tempi and acting as a pendulum. It's really not that difficult to obtain the relevant tempo from such a device. Not sure where she got it from - or if such things are still available (this would have been laye 1950's/early '60's).
Every Blessing
Tony
Although 'relevant tempo' is often either arbitrary or conjectural.
With regard to the Associated Board, often it is nothing other than a current editor's idea of how fast a particular work should be played.
There are also instances of composers giving metronome marks which were challenged by performers. In several cases, the composer was quite happy to accede to the view of the performer. One such case was Duprê and Cochereau; another was, I believe Howells, although I cannot recall the performer.
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Thank you for posting this, it is indeed astonishing - and fantastic.
I have a great respect for the talents of Pierre Pincemaille. His improvisation skills are stunning. And on this superb instrument, the osmosis between player and instrument is quite apparent; much like that of Cochereau and the Cavaillê-Coll instrument at Nôtre-Dame de Paris.
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I have long thought that the speeds we hear today cannot be historically correct. When we remember pieces which were written for particular performers who were unable to play them because they were too difficult to play and now are common place in the repertoire, it seems to me evident that the standard of performance has been going up over the centuries. What basis is there for playing fast? In the sleeve notes of Harnoncourt's Bach B-Minor Mass, he quotes one of Bach's sons as stating "Mein Vater spielte seine Werke recht lebhaft" (my father played his works very quickly). Quickly in relation to what? In that recording of the B-Minor Mass, Harnoncourt takes a pace which is so fast that the horn players simply can't play their notes and it sounds awful. Andrew Parrott has done some research on this and I believe he discovered a source which indicated how long a specific (Bach?) performance had taken, but I forget which and what. I might try to find out.
The interesting question, if we assume performing speeds have gone up over the years is why? I think there are two reasons. Firstly, simply because performers can play faster, just as our athletes can run (quite a bit) faster. In organ playing, I suspect some of the reason is the lack of acoustic in many American churches. Performers tend to play faster in a dead acoustic anyway, as the music seems to demand it, or, to put it the other way round, in a long and lively acoustic, a musician will tend to play more slowly, so that it doesn't all become an unclear wash of notes.
John
Indeed - I would agree with this and the points made by Vox.
You raise the important point that we have no real reference point or bench-mark by which to judge these matters. However, I should be most interested in the outcome of your research into Andrew Parrot's conclusions.
Another factor which may have influenced performance speeds is the gradual increase in the pace of life. I suspect that if one were able to put Bach (or Mozart) in Oxford Circus, for example, they would both be entirely overwhelmed by the frenetic activity.
It also ties in with an earlier discussion regarding pupils' performance speeds and in particular, those from the Far East. I have had, on many occasions, to encourage pupils to slow down a piece (often considerably). This is particularly true of the music of Bach and Mozart. YouTube is partly the culprit, here. I suspect that many who post themselves playing on this media channel are doing it, partly in order to 'show off'. Unfortunately, it often gives the misleading impression that the piece in question has to be played at this speed. Unfortunately, as John has observed, this often results in mistakes and a sheer lack of musicality in the performance - simply because the pace is far too fast.
With regard to optimum speeds of examination pieces, I rarely resort to the use of a metronome. For one thing, the speeds given are often editorial (and when I have checked them, they almost always appear to me to be too fast). I prefer to allow the piece itself, the figuration and where relevant, historical context to give an indication of how fast the piece should be played. I see nothing musical, for example, in playing the first movement of a Mozart sonata as fast as possible, purely because it is largely notated in semiquavers. If the end result is unmusical, then the speed is wrong - particularly when it is evident that a student's technique does not allow them to play the piece accurately, fluently and securely.
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I am grateful that PCNDs rather worrying comments regarding spelling it out to me have been removed, as has his offer to buy my silence in return for permission to visit the organ at Wimborne.
I sincerely hope that lessons have been learned and that we can move on from this conversation and return to the friendly and informative board as John Mander requests above.
I edited the post myself. I did not offer to 'buy your silence' - I stated that since I was opening the Minster for you to play in my holiday, I did not expect to see any further posts in the manner of which you have posted so far on this topic. I find this to be an entirely reasonable response to your vitriol.
Under the circumstances, you give me no option but to withdraw my offer for you to play the Minster organ.
The 1908 Organ Of Ely Cathedral
in The Organ
Posted
Indeed - although I was not convinced by this when Gerard Brooks demonstrated it. Fortunately, as far as I can recall, it is only acoustic below G in the 32ft. octave. I am not sure about the RAH; this instrument already has two 32ft. reeds (one of which is enclosed in the Swell expression box). At Orléans, it was more likely to be either a space-saving device - or to have been financially expedient. I do not think that Cavaillé-Coll did this anywhere else. True, the Pédale Orgue at S. Sernin, Toulouse has a quinted bass on the 32ft. flue. However, He did occasionally use a 'basse acoustique'* for a 16ft. reed on some quite large Récit divisions - Nôtre-Dame de Paris was an example; however, this was replaced with full-length resonators at the time of the 1990-92 rebuild and restoration.
* Although in this case, Cavaillé-Coll used the term to denote simply a half-length bass, not a quint and unison.