innate
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Posts posted by innate
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No, the Imperial goes quite a lot lower than that. The only piece I have ever come across that uses the extended range is Bartok's Piano Sonata, which has just two isolated very low chords in the slow movement.
I think some Bosendorfers go down to low F and the big ones go down to low C. There are sometimes wooden flaps as previously described, othertimes the extended notes are all coloured black.
And Bach could be practical; when he transposed the Magnificat from Eb to D, he changed a couple of notes in the violin part to prevent them going too low.
I would rephrase that: Bach was the most practical of composers. He frequently wrote exactly to the limit of the particular instruments at his disposal. The Eb and D versions of the Magnificat are hugely informative not only for the organological details (eg flutes substituted for recorders, oboes for the solo (?slide) trumpet) but also for Bach's attitude to so-called "key-colour"; we hear so much about D major being a festal, triumphant key but the Eb version came first and was specifically written for the great feast of Christmas.
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Violins are easy enough to retune to obtain a low F.
In the Strauss example there is no time for retuning.
Organs routinely went to GG. I was thinking specifically of the "missing" Eb in the pedal in movt 3 of the first trio sonata.
Were the Trio Sonatas published? Was Bach's Eb really the reason for a change in organ design?
I recently played a piano with a longer than usual compass, at Swindon's Wyvern Theatre, which had some extra notes in the bass beneath a cover (so you don't lose your bearings when heading for the bottom), so would suggest strongly that development IS still with us. Developments in piano action and construction are just as intensely debated as organs.
I am aware of the extended basses available on some Concert Grand pianos, chiefly Bosendorfers, I think. The fact that they have not become more common tells its own story. I'd guess that heated debate over piano construction is much rarer amongst pianists than the equivalent organ situation, although pianists can have very strong opinions about different manufacturers.
The argument was, basically, that working on the assumption that all instruments are representative of their age and must be kept for that reason, then we would replace none at all, and there would therefore be no development of ideas. The fact that we still have surviving instruments from many hundreds of years ago would seem to suggest that total obliteration of the past is unlikely to happen. What would make that more likely would be expensive things like Pitman chests and complex primitive electric and pneumatic actions; what would make it less likely is the fact that we are so very conservation-conscious now.
Is there a single original-state church organ in the UK from more than 150 years ago? I mean original pitch, temperament, swell mechanism, range, winding, no revoicing; just repairs for wear and tear?
By far our biggest threat comes from the daily loss of even mediocre small instruments to electronics. That is something we should be getting far more worked up about than this.
I don't really regret the loss of most mediocre instruments on an artistic level per se. I really worry about the effect of the electronic substitutes on the musical life of a congregation. I guess that means I agree with you!
My personal attitude is less than fashionable, and it is basically that unless one is faced with an extremely fine, substantially original instrument OR a rare survivor from an uncommon builder, keep the best of it and make sure you leave a decent musical instrument behind.
I'd disagree with you there but it's probable difficult to set out one's personal parameters very clearly in this area.
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I think stopping would be an absolute disaster. Music goes on evolving and so must the instruments. Bach and Beethoven both wrote notes that were off the compass of their keyboards, knowing that the instruments would develop too.
<random thoughts alert> I don't think anyone has built an organ with a low B specifically for Bach's Pièce d'Orgue; certainly it didn't prompt a general development of the organ in that direction. And have we any evidence that Bach was composing for any time other than his own? Did Beethoven write any notes off the range of the flute or the trumpet or the viola? I'd imagine that most musicians of Beethoven's time expected the piano, still a relative newcomer, to continue its development. Now, the piano is fully-formed and will, I imagine, see no substantial development of either its range or tonal possibilities. Richard Strauss, the great orchestrator, wrote an impractical low F for the violins in one of his operas; no redesign of the violin has resulted...
Michael
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Incorrect singing technique has also given us the dreadful 'Klyst' for 'Christ' and many other similar infelicities. Regrettably, few modern choirmaters have had singing lessons. Until the late 1950s most choirmasters knew exactly how to sing and thus trained the boys correctly.
Barry Williams
I've forgotten the name of the Northern choirmaster at Magdalen College, Oxford in the Golden Age who, when questioned as to how he trained his boys to produce such beautifully modulated diphthongs and trypthongs replied "There's nowt to singing; just open bloddy mouth and sing!".
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Sorry if this is considered off-topic by anyone
Having used some of the Responsorial Psalm settings at the back of the New English Hymnal I am keen to get a "full set" of responsorial settings of all the Psalms, at least all that feature in the Common Worship lectionary. Does such a collection exist? I looked at the Hymns Old & New - Liturgical book which has RPs for the three-year lectionary but I think this book is designed for the RC church and I suspect the Ps. numbers refer to the Vulgate numbering so I'm not sure that I'd be able to find the right Psalm. I'd like the texts to be as close to Common Worship as possible. Any comments gratefully received.
Michael
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Come to think of it, you can ignore the bit about "durations"....
If we've learned one thing from the experts in Baroque performance practice it's that durations on the page are only a starting point.
Michael
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I've got a feeling you may be able to find some pages in facsimile on the net somewhere....
I'm no expert on the Orgelbüchlein having learned only a handful of the preludes, but this thread has spurred me to look at them to see what instructions there are from JSB. I have the revised Bärenreiter edition dated 1999.
Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier is presented in two versions. The earlier one (BWV 634) is marked "à 2 Clav. et Pedal." and the later one (BWV 633) "distinctius" with no similar words for 2 manuals but the right hand stave is marked f and the left p, which is of course a completely clear indication of 2 manuals.
Christ lag in Todesbanden (BWV 625) has no indication for 2 manuals but, in my humble opinion works very well on two manuals, with none of the difficulties or ungainliness of BWV 643. In fact, a two-manual version avoids problems of note-sharing between the cf and the alto part in bars 5 and 8, although a big stretch or "thumbing" is useful in bar 10.
Whilst I accept that JSB has been pretty clear in his intentions in OB given that the music only exists in MS form, the collection remains incomplete, and at least some of the rubrics post-date the writing of the music, can we be sure that what we have represents JSB's final thoughts? Particularly as some pieces exist in two versions. Certainly the absence of an engraved version such as we have for CÜIII implies that Bach considered it, in some way, a less important text.
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Bedrich Smetena?
Bart Simpson?
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Thanks for the stunning photos which I enjoyed seeing. As a short person this looks like a console where I would find the music desk uncomfortably high up, but more to the point, it looks to me as if it would be impossible for anyone to reach all of the stop knobs while seated on the organ bench. I'm not sure quite what the point is of a stop knob that can't be reached.
Also its interesting to note that there are no labels for the different divisions on the stop jambs.
All in all it looks like an instrument that could have been designed by our former american friend.
I think that the consultant was Peter Hurford; I seem to remember that the cost of the organ was 10M A$. I would be wary of making any sort of ergonomic judgement from photos; much better to sit at the console. Of course Hurford is a tall man and so the console dimensions might suit him well.
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Of course, the Hill organ at Sydney Town Hall is also an enormous tracker job from the real heyday of British organ-building. Sorry, I don't know how to give you an e-link.
Peachtree Road, Atlanta and St Ignatius Loyola, NYC are both detailed on this Mander site at 72 and 68 stops repectively. Not as big as Sydney Opera House but certainly much larger than Chichester. I didn't realise Sydney TH hadn't had its action "improved"
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I raised a topic entitled "St. Michael's, Tenbury" on these discussion boards in 2005 - but it received very little interest. This is a shame because in my opinion this organ is both a fascinating historical artifact and a national treasure. It sounds superb too!
My father was a chorister at St. Michael's c.1935-1940 and he has a story about some birds nesting in the tuba pipes. Anyone care to confirm or deny that the tuba was in regular use in the 1930s? Also, he remembers Sydney Nicholson taking over as organist and director of music when war was declared and Nicholson having a very poor sense of pitch when singing.
Michael
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Back to the Topic Heading, where is the Royal College of Organists? I take the following from their website.
PO Box 56357
London SE16 7XL
Opening Hours
The College is open Monday to Friday during term-time, and normal working hours are 10.00 to 17.00.
I walked past the old premises in Kensington Gore today and it proudly states: The Royal College of Organists over the door. There's a fancy brass entryphone but nothing to say who lives there now. The buildings seem to be in a pretty good state of repair.
Michael
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If memory serves, it's the 'Lourdes' Gloria by Jean-Paul Lecot. I'm pretty sure the music is in Hymns Old and New.Indeed - the dark blue edition, with supplement.
Thanks to both of you.
Michael
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I've been given a setting of the Gloria In Excelsis by a member of the congregation with no composer's name, title, or publisher. I wondered if someone here could help identify it.
It's a responsorial setting with the response being "Gloria, gloria in excelsis Deo" twice with a melody in 4/4:
E. d C- | G. f E- | A G E F |E- D- ||E. d C- | G. f E- | A A G C' |B- C'-
[X = crotchet, x = quaver, X. = dotted crotchet, X- = minim]
The solo verses are the text from Common Worship, I think, written in 2/4 in a cross between speech rhythm and metrical.
Many thanks for any help.
Michael
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All these comments on the chords in Alain's Litanies are enormously cheering.
I'm currently trying to learn the piece, and can mostly fumble through until there... at which point I have given up in despair every time until now. I shall practice with renewed vigour tomorrow. (If not accuracy.)
I'd sightread through it a few times over the last 25 years with the same despair as you, Richard. Yesterday, as a result of reading this thread, I went through it again and took the trouble to read the lefthand chords carefully. Apart from noticing a couple of missing accidentals, I found that after 3 or 4 slow readings the chords began to feel more comfortable, less surprising! I think I'll be able to play it quite well in a couple of weeks if I keep at it!
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I note the fashion for varied reprises when performing Bach Chorale Preludes. Can anyone shed light on why this should be "authentic" ? I found a quote by CPE Bach from 1760 talking about varied repeats in keyboard sonatas, but what other evidence is there? Thanks all.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by reprises in Bach's Chorale Preludes but it is a generally accepted principal in Baroque music, both vocal and instrumental, that repeated sections provide an opportunity for additional embellishment. The slow movements of the organ Trio Sonatas are an obvious example of such opportunities.
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This is not the same thing at all, Pierre. The Pedal Bourdon is of far greater use than the average Tuba - and not simply because of the fact that it is quieter.
<snip>
Personally, I cannot easily think of a less musical sound than the dreadful opaque honking of most of the tubas which I have heard - except perhaps a standard three-rank 19-22-26 mixture by a certain now defunct West Country firm of organ builders.
OK, pcnd, we know you don't like tuba stops. On the other hand they appear to have been considered essential on all large English organs for a considerable part of the C20 and have certainly been specified in pieces by many of Britain's leading organ and church composers. Whether Pierre actually plays or not is irrelevant to his point here; ditch all tubas at your peril.
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Sorry David, my mistake:
I meant indeed "that has not its place in all kind of organs".
Pierre
At first I was confused but reading the rest of your post and knowing some of your background (!) I was quickly able to work out what you meant!
Renatus Harris's scheme for a crescendo device for St Paul's cathedral of perhaps 7 unison stops being brought into operation gradually by a pedal is an interesting relative of the Rollschweller, I suppose.
The linked mp3 crescendo is a very good indicator of a slow, stop-by-stop use of the RS but I can also imagine its use over a short time in just the same way as we might use a general crescendo pedal, assuming that the RS can be operated in such a fashion, although these sudden effects can be perceived of, by some, as even less musical than pressing a few generals in quick succession.
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What would readers consider a good average number of weddings/funerals to play for each year at their own churches? I play about 12 weddings and perhaps 10 funerals per year at my small church in Gloucester.As a young man (1960/70) when marriage was more popular than co-habitation,I looked with envy at colleagues who seemed to have about 2 or 3 weddings each week in their church. One chap was so bored with the thought of having to play 4 or 5,he would pass them on to me. A welcome bonus for a young married school teacher!
I remember fondly my days singing for weddings in the late 1960s and early 1970s. 3 or 4 on a Saturday seemed not infrequent and there was certainly at least one 5-wedding day. Very useful money for the eight trebles. This was in a church on a 1950s council estate where the demographics were in our favour; most of the tenants had moved in as new parents so 20 years later most of the children were desperate to get married! I suspect there are fewer than 10 weddings a year in that church now.
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I suspect a simple misprint at some stage. Either "pope" or "poet" would make more immediate sense to an ordinary hearer, unless the reference is to the habit of having the organ as the instrument of choice in films of Gothic horror stories.
Any organist with a regular church job would recognize the nightmare that is Poe's "Three Sundays in a Week".
Michael
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This is the church just round the corner from the albert hall? Big chandelier above the middle of the nave?
Are you perhaps thinking of the Brompton Oratory?
Michael
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innate = Michael Haslam
Sang as a treble on RSCM Cathedral Courses in the early 1970s under Bertalot, Gerald Knight, Martin How. Read music at Christ Church, Oxford. Assistant organist at the Tower of London for a couple of years before concentrating on the piano and conducting for 20 years. Now "musician" at a North London church with musical responsibility for "family" services. Former member of Piano Circus and currently Assistant Musical Director of The Producers.
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Drum Roll, the autobiography of James Blades, is informative, moving and very readable. And in a similar vein Harpo Speaks, the autobiography of Harpo Marx, whilst not quite so music-centric, is a fantastic insight into a remarkable life, family and culture.
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It is quite simply fallacious to imply that serious organists do not play transcriptions. It is not true now and certainly was not true in the past. As to the here and now, Dame Gillian Weir, Simon Preston , Thomas Trotter, Nicolas Kynaston, David Briggs, Kevin Bowyer and John Scott Whitely have all recorded transcriptions, in some cases whole programmes of them, many still available or only recently released.
good stuff snipped
Serious organists do not play transcriptions ? They certainly do in this world.
I would just add that the greatest organist and organ composer, JS Bach, made and played transcriptions.
Royal College Of Organists
in General discussion
Posted
Sounds like the perfect time to organise a bloodless coup.