Ian Ball
-
Posts
391 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Ian Ball
-
-
Save Schulze and his followers, I do not know of much tierce-less choruses
in british organs -baroque included, with their Sesquialteras, identical to the flemish ones-.
Schulze was an inheritor of both northern and Silbermann traditions. Silbermann,
an outsider in the saxon scene with his frenchified Mixtures, who preferred
to isolate the Tierce on a seperate rank if those crazy guys really wanted it !
As for Hill, wasn't he influenced by a certain Neukomm, a good friend
of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll ?
Thanks. That's very interesting. Pity Silbermann was hailed as definitive for Bach for so many years in the 20th century (Bach disliked his Mixtures, I believe). Actually, you'll often find a tierce lurking in Hill choruses (if only in the bottom octave of the Sw mixture, or even in a Swell Cymbal as in his glorious Peterborough creation). Even John Nicholson included a principal scale tierce (and larigot) on separate sliders for those crazy guys...
-
....A Squeeze(swell)box they needed a week to destroy!
:lol: Pierre
With justifiably and audibly good results!
-
"Are you saying the 'organo pleno' of manuals to quint mixture; pedals to mixture plus 16' reed is purely a Dupré/post Dupré fancy?"
Yes.
A Dupré way, but under way since the teaching of Lemmens.
At least in Bach, this is not historically correct. And yes, you
may surely use reeds in the fugues, the "french" way !
"And what about the numerous baroque organs (especially in North Germany and the Netherlands) with (predominantly) quint choruses at high pitches?"
(Quote)
Those belong to a completely different Orgellandschaft. And note
their Sesquialteras and Terzians, which are chorus stops.
Pierre
"But what about the long tradition (in the UK at least) of quint mixtures on Romantic organs - often topped by a Sharp Mixture too (mid-century Hill, Nicholson et al)? Was Schulze the only force behind this? And so what of he was? It sounds wonderful (and you can hear the inner parts)!"
-
Tierce mixtures are mandatory in Bach since this was what he had under his fingers
in 90% of the organs he ever played.
-The Tierce in french organs.
During the Renaissance and early baroque period, the french Principal chorus
knew tierce ranks, be it in Ripieno organs (there is a description in Arnaut de Zwolle
of a such organ, with all ranks seperated like in italian or english organs, with
a 4/5' rank), or sometimes in the Blockwerk kind (Dijon).
When the flemish masters worked in France (Langhedul & Co), they introduced
there the "chorus Sesquialtera", typical of the flemish, dutch and british kind, that is,
1 1/3'- 4/5' in the bass, then a break to 2 2/3'- 1 3/5', Principal scales, to be used
within the Principal chorus.
Later Mersenne described a "Tiercelette" 4/5' rank, so it became an isolated rank.
During the 17th century a move took place towards the exclusion of the tierce from the
Principal chorus and its developpment to the extreme, on the other hand, in the Flute chorus:
3 1/5' rank on the Great or Bombarde manual, Tierce 1 3/5' on all the manuals, plus several Cornets, all wide scale but
different from each others, from the gentle, mellow, singing Stop on the Positif up to the bold,
loud Grand Cornet on the Great, just behind the Montre.
So it was clear: a Principal Chorus without Tierce ranks, played with no reeds whatsoever
(save the Pedal Trompette of course), and a big Flute chorus, crammed with tierces,
to which one can add the reeds.
Do not believe those french quint mixtures were intended for the polyphony; quite the reverse
is true. The "Plein-jeu" was meant for solemnity -imagine the priest entering the church followed
by a procession-, and was played in chords. Do not expect any "Ti-tu-tah" there.
And so the french baroque organ ended up divided in two parts, exactly at the time the german one
made the reverse way, that is, the fusion of the "Engchor" and the "Weitchor" in an integrated ensemble.
The neo-baroque made a *mixture* with that, and produced an organ vaguely "german", but divided
in two, with french-like quint mixtures (after Dupré's Diktat) meant for....Polyphony, with no possibility
to add a tierce (Neo-baroque Sesquis are flutey soloists, not the real baroque thing!) in it.
In fact the Tierce choruses were not really meant for polyphony, but rather for climaxes.
In a baroque organ from central germany, you'd better either use a "Grand jeu" kind of
registration, also with the reeds, either restrain to 8-4-2, or 8-8-8-4-4-2 2/3'-2' (and all
what can be done within thoses boundaries).
We are far from the quint mixtures which have been glued onto post-romantic big jobs,
but I guess some people will understand why they drive me mad...
Liverpool has not been build for neo-baroque re-interpretation of Bach "The Singer machine way",
but rather for the Vierne Mass. PAM; PAM-PAMPAM-PAM....There, like in Notre-Dame, the Septiemes
aren't anti-social, but to the point as filling helpers.
Pierre
This is all good stuff and has been aired before countless times on this forum. I for one love gritty Bach on low-pitched tierce choruses (tho I still hear echoes of my teachers' chagrin if I dare add reeds to fugues, so strong is the habit of not doing so). But what about the long tradition (in the UK at least) of quint mixtures on Romantic organs - often topped by a Sharp Mixture too (mid-century Hill, Nicholson et al)? Was Schulze the only force behind this? And so what of he was? It sounds wonderful (and you can hear the inner parts)!
And what about the numerous baroque organs (especially in North Germany and the Netherlands) with (predominantly) quint choruses at high pitches?
Are you saying the 'organo pleno' of manuals to quint mixture; pedals to mixture plus 16' reed is purely a Dupré/post Dupré fancy?
Bach fugues with reeds can sound so tiresome; without Mixtures they can sound so dull.
-
Yanka Hekimova doesn't seem to have recorded it - when we were there we got the Minuet and the Toccata - as with the rest - all from memory and quite spellbinding. She also played the 1st movement of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony (hear on her website) which was equally amazing. It all sounded completely convinving on that organ and there were none of the weird harmonics or stranger small reeds in action - simply a huge variety of flutes, strings, chorus work and 'big' reed sounds.
A
She is an astonishingly fine musician.
My abiding memory of that organ (apart from the life-changing experience of driving Vierne Messe Solennelle and Vierne VI Final on it) is hearing Bernard Haas playing his transcription of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring in concert. Afterwards, with quiet modesty, he explained how his first version of the work was too hard, so he had to redo it. It still sounded (at the very least) like a duet. Incredible.
-
Fine memories of your visits to France, guys !
And here one of mines, a feeling of what I enjoyed in Britain in the 70's:
(Certainly worth Saint-Eustache!)
Pierre
But the boys are all so SHARP (apart from the final top B flat)! Perhaps because there was so hot air from the squeezebox three inches behind them...
-
Perhaps not the ideal time to launch an appeal... or am I just letting the media influence my confidence?
-
I've just had a very quick scan of the 2009 Prom schedule.
There is a reasonable amount of organ music this year, albeit including an inordinate amount of Messiaen (again), but with one highlight on the Sunday afternoon in week3. There is also a Bach day later on with Simon Preston playing a goodly set. Saint-Saens No. 3 appears at the end of a Messiaen programme with Olivier Latry doing the honours.
Wasn't that last year?
Alas no Latry this year...
Here's this year's link:
-
I do not think that it had one, Ian - at least, not from the time of the H&H rebuild in 1957. In The Harrison Story (Laurence Elvin), it is listed as a (tierce) Cymbel (26-29-31) there, too.
It definitely had one. Alas the spec has been taken off the Cathedral website so can't check.
-
I don't remember much unblending neo-baroquery there in my day (1990-91). Where's the Solo Cornet des Violes gone? It's listed as Cymbel on NPOR.
-
...give any spare £££££ to rehousing the CC in Warrington Parr Hall...
Peter
Is the glorious Schulze at St Peter's Hindley still homeless? Manchester could do FAR worse! Perhaps with the Parr Hall CC in the nave somewhere too...
-
...the Tuba that Norman Cocker specified, presumably for his own Tune, was removed in the late 70s
Paul Walton
I can't believe I'm quite such an organ anorak to contribute this nugget, but I believe the tuba he had in mind was that in Cork Cathedral. Some say Manchester's party horn could be heard from platform 12 of Victoria Station...
-
Actually it worked fine for me. I have just spent an enjoyable hour recreating some of Cochereau's improvisations from the comfort of my own home.
I hope that the good people of Worcester enjoyed them....
Much appreciated Sean, thank you, as I drafted yet another defence to a redundancy claim... Just missed the pedal mutations!
-
Yep, nice to know the economic crisis isn't stopping some people spending unnecessary money on unnecessary 'improvements' to their organs.
David Briggs is a brilliant organist but surely even he realises that not every organ needs the pedal division of Notre Dame?
<sigh>
back to work
Bazuin
Actually DJB's not the advisor and there are plenty of organs pre-dating NDP that were built with pedal mutations. To my eyes the new scheme looks like an ideal and cost effective solution for what was probably a rather 'vanilla' organ.
-
not like Gloucester then
I couldn't possibly comment
-
oh, and I'll leave Pierre to design the Mixtures! Bring back Norman Cocker's original design, I say...
-
As what?
After Lausanne Cathedral? I don't think so!
Oh dear. Haven't played it so can't comment. Played some fabulous ones in the States tho.
But let's have no more talk of aliens. A good (old?) British organ is what Manchester needs, with foundations like my Gran's fruit cake (rich, complex and comforting), strings like her Victoria sandwich (light and fluffy) and reeds like a strong cup of tea (Britain's favourite drink - it's official*)
-
In such a rotten acoustic nothing else would sound any better than what is alreay there. No doubt they will be interested in something from "another place" if the usual suspects are involved, in any way!
DW
Fisk would be nice ~shhh~ sorry
-
Last night we attended a performance of the 'St. John Passion' at Manchester Cathedral and very good it was too.
The Dean opened the concert by welcoming everyone and announced that the priority music development for 2009 was to be a 'new organ'.
I am aware from conversations with members of the resident team over the last 6 months that:
1. Paul Hale has been on site and surveyed all the current organ material.
2. A number of builders have been asked to submit proposals (sorry, can't quite remember all the names which were quoted)
3. The new instrument would be (to some extent) accommodated within a new case on the screen.
Let's hope these plans get further than those made during Gordon Stewart's tenure during the '80s, when it was proposed to have a 'stock' 3 manual Walker on the screen. I gather that funds were availably at the time, but got diverted into other things.
It certainly will be lovely to see a fine case back on the screen, the present aspect viewed from the nave is not pleasant.
DT
The 80s proposal had a lovely David Graebe case on the screen. But thank goodness it wasn't built.
Hope they keep the French Horns...
...and the two curtain shakers in the Jesus Chapel.
Oh, and the Solo string chorus up to Cornet des Violes.
And the clarinet.
Oh and the lovely Swell reeds (both great and small).
Come to think about it, can't they just replace the dreadful Great chorus and leave the rest alone? I believe some tweaking to the upperwork was done in the 90s but it still lacks character.
-
Bless you for that, Paul. Cheque's in the post. Actually, Thomas Trotter plays it - went down well at his Worcester recital. Mind you, only I swing the middle section (historically informed, you see, but probably not what the composer intended
)Here is that very performance, Paul (mine, not TT's): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRvnZgpPoWo
-
The fact that the mood may or may not match nuptials is the least of your problems. This piece is VERY, very difficult!!! Fantastic though (If you like that sort of thing!) I only ever half-learnt it, too much like hard work. I must re-visit it and button it up sometime.
Best performance ever* : Ian Ball's last recital before leaving Gloucester cathedral. Never heard that organ sound so smooth! Simply beautiful.
Paul.
* Sorry - should qualify this by saying that it seems no one else plays/can play it!
Bless you for that, Paul. Cheque's in the post. Actually, Thomas Trotter plays it - went down well at his Worcester recital. Mind you, only I swing the middle section (historically informed, you see, but probably not what the composer intended
) -
Well, I could have predicted it.
I agreed to play the wedding for a couple I'd never met before, and when they asked me for suggestions, I said, of course, I'm happy to play anything within reason.
Bad mistake. They want, during the signing of the register, something by someone apparantly called Stevie Wonder or "another Motown classic".
Not being a composer or genre I'm familiar with, could anyone recommend me something suitable, including a link to the sheet music as a free pdf if possible? The wedding is Saturday afternoon
Contrabombarde
Well.. there's always Sometimes I feel like a motherless child from Bolcom's Gospel Preludes. It's dedicated to Marvin Gaye, a 'Motown classic' by any definition. Not sure the mood would match nuptials mind you
-
Just as I agree with you it is unfair to compare the action of a modern cathedral organ with historic instruments such as these, I hope you agree it may be similarly unfair to compare these two performances (in particular when it comes to wind fluctuations) when they are totally different styles of piece on totally different registrations making totally different demands on the instrument and player.
You urge me to divorce my feelings about interpretation from those of organ control. I can't. Whoever may make the organ sound better may not necessarily be the person to make the music sound better. Whilst one should never criticise a great master in public, and I am willing to be shot down in flames for doing so, I found the constant disruptions in the trio sonata phrasing destroyed any sense of line and without any obvious musical reason. I couldn't connect with this at all, and see no point in being able to finely control the pipe speech if... how can I put this?
Speaking generally, and not merely about this example, an organ is a compact way of making precise and varied sounds; often in imitation of groups of not-quite-unanimous individuals, some of whose instruments are slow to speak. In a bid to achieve expression, we unlearn rattling pianistic precision and adopt rhetorical devices, informed ways of playing out of time, to make the music speak as if we were able to vary the timbre and dynamic of a single note like the instrumentalists we seek to imitate. Bach taught the violin for the last 17 years of his life and frequently led services from the harpsichord - is there any doubt that Trio 6 is two violins and a cello?
Adopting rhetorical devices which disrupt the flow and disguise the character of the music, just to say 'look - I can control the pipes to such a fine extent', seems to me to waste a great opportunity to present matters with the greatest possible musical clarity, just as we might approach orchestral transcriptions - playing upon the ribs and backbone of the music with the minimum of compromise to flow and without the orchestral clothing. The expression and articulation should come from within the flow or rhetorical treatment of it (in imitation of an in-breath, or perhaps changing string and hand position), and not merely .... ........ by inserting silence where ............................. it would appear not to..... belong.
Please shoot me down in flames because I am attempting to come to a conclusion as to why I would prefer to listen to Peter Hurford or even Virgil Fox than someone who makes me
look up in astonishment every few bars.
No David, I quite agree. As much as I admire van Oortmerssen (despite sweating blood over his studies as a postgrad student), I find this example rather mannered and, well simply too slow, and I've I tried really hard to find subtle life and energy within. And, yes, I have heard his lecture about tempo - nothing new there my old choirmaster didn't tell me about relating Palestrina to one's heartbeat, or reading Chopin or Brahms on rubato, but then his lecture it is aimed at young students. The many performances out there of the sixth trio using 2 violins (or vln and flute) and continuo provide perhaps more valuable lessons, whatever your action. Mind you, JvO's Brahms disc is among my desert island collection. Fabulous.
-
Sunday morning radio is full of dreadful shocks - I turned on to Radio Three this morning only to hear an unspeakably crude arrangement of a Bach organ fugue by Elgar - I don't know why the BBC thinks orchestral transcriptions of organ music are better to listen to than the real thing - there seems to be some strange preconceptions of listners mental capacity......
Crude? I'd like to hear a better orchestration from that contributor, or anybody else. Mental capacity is indeed in question here...
I'm sure most of my orchestral musician friends (and certainly my clarinettist wife) would far rather wake up to that on a Sunday morning than 10 minutes of organo pleno (absolutely no double entendre intended).
That particular performance was exquisite and highly detailed too; the phrasing/slurring as expressive as any period chamber ensemble. So what if there was slurring across upbeats - 100 years ago we would all be playing like that and regarding it as 'gospel'.
Elgar's own interpretation (available on Naxos) is somewhat more restrained, actually, with a faster Fantasia and less rubato in the Fugue.
IFB
:lol: 
)
Youtube
in General discussion
Posted
Hmm. Some questionable articulation there...and the Mixture clearly isn't for polyphonic music and needs a tierce.