Ian Ball
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Posts posted by Ian Ball
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Sweet. Much more interesting, logical and versatile. Well laboured
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The ND choir is supposed to be better these days.
It's infinitely better than on those 40-year old recordings. There's an excellent maitrise and a very good group of professional adults.
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So good, you replied twice! I'm intrigued, and await the "real answer". Do I hear the words "preoccupied with colour at the expense of..." marching inexorably towards this debate?
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What real musical use are they for?
Well, one can't effectively render Isolde's Liebestod without a Swell and/or Solo sub-octave (or at least some very luscious 16s)...
and of course much French symphonic repertoire had Octaves graves in mind for big tutti passages played at the top end of the keyboard (to answer another subscriber, no they do not effect the weight of the keys as they function through the Barker machine).
Liturgically, the most useful application of both sub and super is to make string soup (which I find most toothsome on occasions), and also to brighten the Tuba when used for solos against a full congregation (at Hereford Cathedral the Tuba is rarely used without super octave as it simply cuts no ice in the nave). The most useful mini-full swell for psalm accompaniment can often be achieved by adding Sw Octave to the 16' reed plus 4 (and 2?) flues.
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Goodness I'm flattered. Where was that then?
And yes, I think we're pretty much on the same hymn sheet. Interesting theory about inept pedalling. I take your point about collisions, and of course there are exceptions to the usual 3-stop Thuringian pedal dept.
, for example. Here, a 2-man scheme has a 10-stop pedal dept and no pedal coupler. Cracking 32' reed too! Wonder how Die Meistersinger overture might sound on it...But I digress...we were discussing Buxtehude. This set has been a revelation to me. Fresh, free, 'no rules' playing, without the excessive speed and quirkiness of Koopman. I particularly love Spang-Hanssen's accelerando trills in the coloratura preludes, which begin by markedly overlapping the two notes, as if the interloper is trying to knock the main note off its perch. Fabulous and well worth a listen. Can be picked up cheaply if you dig around. Wonderful choice of instruments. Great colour.
PS actually I've just found his
(actually pretty fast!) YouTube doesn't say but it's on the 1696 Schnitger organ of Noordbroek Reformed Church, Netherlands.PPS Of course this is the best Buxtehude playing you're ever likely to hear. Such an innocuous, 'manualiter' piece, too.
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Ha'peth o'tar?
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If this scheme works, then fine, but could I offer one or two observations which I would be asking myself with a scheme like this?
1) What do the Gt Dulciana and Sw strings actually add to this registration? I'll bet they make little or no audible difference. As a general rule it is bad practice to include stops that merely use wind to no effect - in fact, being the querulous old goat that I am, I'm inclined take it as a sign that the organist isn't using his ears properly! Of course, when doing a stop crescendo and diminuendo it may be more trouble than it's worth to subtract stops like these only to add them again later, but that isn't that case here.
2) Similarly, what do the flutes add? They may be necessary to make the sound agreeable, or to give the chorus a proper balance (or indeed the right balance between treble and bass), but again they may just thicken the sound where the diapason chorus alone might sound clearer. If all they do is give Buxtehude a Romantic veneer I would omit them, but bear in mind that the chorus may have been voiced with their inclusion in mind. Find out what sounds most musical.
3) The pedal registration looks nicely independent (and you do not mention couplers), but is it really? It may well be, but I know of organs over here where you can draw stops like these, yet the pedal still does not really produce an effective, independent, contrapuntal line with definition equal to the manuals. As for the 32', does it have time to speak properly at whatever speed(s) you are playing?
Bottom line: don't just go for aural effect; try to illuminate the music as well.
I'm sure you will have considered most, if not all, of this already, but I thought I'd pontificate anyway!
Edit; Sorry - just realised that you posted the organ spec, not your registration!! Haha! Ah well, never mind. Points are still valid, I think.
Hear, hear and thrice hear! Clearly it has to keep moving, but it seems to have become fashionable (over here at any rate) to race through it with a ridiculous superficiality. For me, the appeal of this movement is the dichotomy between the majesterial ground bass and the brighter, flowing activity that goes on above it. The "correct" speed is the one that preserves and finds the best balance between these two characteristics while still maintaining forward momentum. To dash through it headlong reduces its stature IMO. But the trouble with fashion is that once you have got used to hearing a fast speed it is very difficult to accept a slower one so that one man's majesty becomes another's deadly plod (think of Vierne's In dir ist Freude!) Fashion is an evil thing!
Well, playing devil's advocate for a moment, could it be fashion that has dictated that all but one Open Diapason be the foundation of an English organ's chorus? For instruments of a certain vintage, dulcianas, salicionals, gambas and flutes (not just at 8' pitch) would have been included in the builder's original composition pedal or piston settings for the plenum, and I see no reason to exclude them if that is the case. One notable exception might be a late-vintage Harrison, where the Large Open was designed to supplant lesser foundations (shame so many LOD's have been removed, or put down into the Pedal as a makeshift 8', but that's another beef). But I see no reason to leave such stops out of a bigger chorus 'to sound clearer' if the whole instrument wasn't designed to play Buxtehude in the first place (obviously as long as the wind doesn't suffer). "...thicken" is a subjective and dangerous word! A melange of foundations, even at 4 and 2' pitches, can produce wonderfully attractive and clear overtones, in addition to sumptuous gravitas so beloved of organists throughout history (not just since, say, Wolstenholme). Indeed the more I research and hear original Baroque instruments, the more I'm convinced that the generous provision of foundations on some instruments was intended to be combined in as many ways as possible, including in the tutti. Play in a way that is also doing credit to an instrument's integrity, I'd say, otherwise you risk weakening the music you play on it.
Put it another way (to paraphrase David Bednall's gloriously revolutionary utterances): do an orchestra's flutes stop playing just because the brass have joined in? No.
And will someone PLEASE explain why there is still this obsession in certain folk for an "independent pedal", as if it's the nadir of an anti-romantic's dreams; something to which all organs should aspire when they grow up? Sure, the larger Hanseatic instruments had such, but Sachsen/Thuringen and all stations south rarely did. I've seen too many decent English organs utterly ruined by the removal of space-hogging Open Woods in favour of nasty upperwork, usually late-speaking and too quiet, and of course the ubiquitous Rohr Schalmei... As long as you can still hear the tenor part, I see no reason not to use Gt to Pedal - often it's the only way to get the pedals to speak with everything else.
Ultimately, I would say "aural effect" is the final arbiter. It may well be that Great 8' flute, plus principals at 4 and 2 might be more 'appropriate' for PF&C (adding/subtracting the 2 at will)
I apologise, Vox, for using your post to have a wee rant!
Best wishes
Ian
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On the other hand, this organ has existed without them for its entire life and, despite having received a number of restorations, none of the incumbent organists has so far been inclined to re-instate the original mixture or mutation scheme.
Very true, and I adore the Liverpool sound (as long as Grand Chorus to Great is given a rest once in a while!), but there have been significant changes since it was built: e.g. suppression of the Pedal mutations, the u/e Choir division, and tierce in the pedal mixture
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Interesting promo
Less successful in
repertoire, perhaps, although a poor recording. I could live withstrings though. -
at Liverpool in 1927! Wonderful poise, colour and virtuosity
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That is just outrageous! There's more here (in HQ). I think the chap on the top right is feeling sea sick...
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[deleted by author]
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Many thanks Chris for your helpful response. I can certainly testify to the welcoming, inclusive and 'missionary' attitude of Worcester Cathedral's music department, and for the frequent opportunities given to all ages to play and hear the wonderful new organ. It's good to know kids concessions are still very much in mind for the 'big' recital series. Looking forward to seeing you on Saturday!
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Whatever, I still regard £15 as an insignificant amount.
I'm sorry but for a family of four, it is not insignificant! I don't quibble about the cost for an adult - when you can't reserve a seat, for an artist of DJB's callibre, a blanket £15 is fine, but one can't be expected to encourage young people to experience such an event without concessions. If there are concessions, then they should be shouted from the rooftops, in my view.
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I have always believed that the maximum that should be charged for a concert or recital, whatever you call it, is £10 with concessions , and I say this being aware of recitalists fees.
I am shocked, therefore to note that David Brigg's concert will cost you £15 and no concessions.
Is the recitalist aware that this monstrous admission fee is being charged with the aged and students paying exactly the same-? disgraceful. I certainly will not be there.
I thought there was a recession.on.
Colin Richell.
I agree entirely re concessions (if there was a good bar and comfy seats, I might concede
). However, there have been generous concessions for children at recent recitals. Perhaps Chris/Adrian might confirm if this is the case? -
Doesn't Duruflé's Sicilienne need an F#?
But ofcourse we all do prefer a pedalboard that's either constructed and/or placed 'ambachtelijk' (artisan/artisanal).
The old masters didn't do ergonomics, why would we ....
I'm tempted to say "because I'm not a 17th century Dutch dwarf"... but I'll resist.
Perhaps it's more to do with the fact they couldn't easily do 3 hours+ organ practice in one session, without buying a blower many beers. So I guess back ache seldom set in!
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Does anyone know if the Henri Messerer transcription used by Olivier Latry on his 'Midnight from Notre-Dame' disc is available anywhere?
Hear hear! Although I do think the Kynaston recording of the WT Best arrangement is more moving/exciting, much as I adore the Latry disc (OMG that Mozart Fugue in C minor performance....electric. One of the hardest pieces in the repertoire, not to mention the Prokofiev Toccata...)
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Yes, I was right, it is the Dover Great Transcriptions for Organ volume, transcribed/arranged by Middleshulte. You won't be disappointed by the full-bloodedness of the arrangement; 25 pages long and you can barely see the score on occasions for registration changes, dynamics and articulations abound all over the page. Guaranteed not a dry leg in the house at the end! Did you have a particular organ in mind for the performance?
Excellent - although not a free score it sounds right up my alley. No organ in mind; just wanna learn it.
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Interestingly (and slightly off topic - apologies), a number of albeit smaller English organs are steadily finding their way abroad. Orgelbau Oppel, for example, is just one firm which snaps up suitable Romantic English organs when they become available, to restore and sell on as viable alternatives to digital organs. Stephan Oppel has just bought and collected my little house organ and was on his way to collect another Victorian instrument from a church in Flixton. Stephan and his colleagues drooled and gasped when I showed them the 3-manual 1907 Hill organ currently rotting, unused, in St Mark's Kingsholm, Gloucester and would have paid good money to take it away.
If the RAM want a quality instrument, with real pedigree, that actually supports a substantial chunk of the repertoire, perhaps they might consider refurbishing one of the scores of redundant 19th and early 20th century British organs crying out to be loved.
I've yet to hear a new Open Diapason by any current British builder that equals a good, stringy Victorian/Edwardian example. They all sound too close to neo-classical models to my ears (with sincere apologies to our hosts). I'll get my coat...
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Sorry something seems to go wrong when I paste the link in.
But search the icking-music-archive.org site and you should find it easily enough.
H
Thanks but the only arrangement I can find there is the harpsichord one mentioned above.
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After a quick look
Chaconne arranged for harpsichord and transposed to G minor here :
http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bac...onne_gminor.pdf
H
not really what I was after - a full-blooded romantic re-working - but useful to have. Thank you.
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Does anyone know of a website from where I can download free of charge the WT Best (or any other decent) arrangement of the Bach Chaconne for solo vln in d minor? As both composers are in the public domain I do object to paying for a copy!
Likewise Best's excellent transcription of Mendelssohn's E minor Prelude & Fugue for piano.
The usual places (IMSLP, WIMA and Sibley collection) don't seem to offer it.
Many thanks
Ian
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Yeas, a terrific piece which I think is much more sophisticated that the earler Processional (though that's great fun too). I have been looking at his Antiphones lately which I am considering learning, and which I reckon to be a lot more profound - does anybody have experiences of that piece? (I suspect this calls for a new thread...)
Peter
Yes Antiphonies is a very fine piece. Well worth learning. I recall a thrilling broadcast of John Scott playing it in Chester Cathedral, back in the 80s. Cymbelstern 'n'all.
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As a Mathias fan and someone who plays his Processional, I've looked at the Recessional and wondered what it sounds like....and here it is!. Note also who is playing!
Having to listened to it a couple of times I now can't get the damn thing out of my head! Definitely one to learn though.
However, I realise some will think any time spent on Mathias might as well be spent watching paint dry.
Glad you liked it! It's quite an earworm, as they say :angry:
Youtube
in General discussion
Posted
Can't help thinking that by the middle of the 2nd clip, makers of programmes for British youth would be worried they'd have lost concentration. Such a shame: this is a brilliant lesson in physics and engineering. Nice not to have distracting pop music in the background too. We even get that in 'serious' science/nature progammes for grown-ups in the UK...