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David Pinnegar

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  1. How really WONDERFUL! It's such a really creative and unique design that it should inspire through being just so . . . unexpected. It would be great to organise a visit perhaps from the Crawley and Horsham District Organists' Association if perhaps you might welcome visitors. I've been saying to priests for a long time that a good instrument and good music can be an attraction which can get people back into churches. There are a steady trudge of instruments towards Ebay and I fear that not all will experience the happy ending to their former story that this organ has. Best wishes and many congratulations and all encouragement, David P
  2. On https://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,2247.msg10095/topicseen.html#msg10095 there is news of an instrument near Aberdeen which needs rescue or will at least be a source of parts. Best wishes David P
  3. This certainly does look like the Christmas Tree model and, whatever the tonal qualities, should be preserved as a matter of the design being so very unique. Best wishes David P
  4. On ebay is a wonderful little instrument well worth preserving - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Henry-Willis-Junior-Development-Organ/273897600962 - an extension organ with a most extraordinarily adventurous and exciting pipe rack . . . Best wishes David P
  5. Yes - Colin - spot on as always and most valuable examples. I came to a similar conclusion and demonstrated this with Bach's 48 last year doing a lecture about the Colour of Tuning in Mozart's time - and of course likewise apologies for using electronic simulation. Here we demonstrated examples of the very worst keys. What's rather interesting is Schubart's description of D major, the key of trumpet fanfares and which we find Bach writing in his D major Prelude in Book II of the 48, indicating Bach aligning his use of keys with the documented effects to be expected in an unequal temperament of some sort. See pages 9 and 10 of https://academia.edu/37951978/THE_COLOUR_OF_MUSIC_IN_MOZARTS_TIME_A_journey_from_Couperin_to_Chopin_Examination_of_reconstruction_of_Mozart_Fantasias_K594_and_K608_for_Mechanical_Clock Best wishes David P
  6. Such experiences are the reason why unequal temperaments have had a bad press. There is a spectrum of unequal temperaments and of course the most extreme are there to be used for very specific purposes and with intention as I have with the musicological explorations with the 1802 Stodart piano. Certainly Kellner can be used universally on both historic and modern pianos but where I've heard an organ in Vallotti or Young, I haven't been obviously conscious that it's not Equal, as for me the flavour is not enough. But it's there and people report very good experiences with pianos tuned so. One of the reasons for possible better experiences with pianos is that their tuning is stretched to fit inharmonicity of strings and this makes the equal temperament give a very hard tonality. This is why Mander's explorations with organs are important and why it would be really nice to hear of experiences of their other instruments and recordings. Best wishes David P
  7. John - you're spot on about Kellner and this is why I'm really curious about the success of Manders in building instruments in Kellner and the reaction thereto. The conversion of the Cranleigh instrument to equal temperament was a travesty and a significant loss to the musical world. It's for this reason I'd love to know where there are others. Zimblestern - I come from both sides of the fence. When I was a boy I rebuilt an organ in my parents' house and we knocked down four walls and ceilings to fit it in. Then came the challenge of tuning it. These were the early years of BIOS and the early Journals carried an article about historical methods. Without apps on a mobile phone those were different days. I chose Werkmeister III as it was apparently simple - and from which I gained a love of key colour but hated WIII as it was hideous in A flat. From around 1983 I started tuning the piano for concerts. Strict equal temperament. After all, who'd tune a piano in anything else? Then around 15 years ago I was listening to a performance of the Chopin 2nd Sonata when I realised that Chopin had chosen the key of Bb Minor because it would have an effect sympathetic to the subject of the music and that therefore Chopin must have been exploiting unequal temperament. This was a turning point. But which one? After reading Padgham's book I plumped for Kellner, aided by the fact that a new electronic tuner had the facility. It turned out to be a hole in one in terms of applicability for the instrument, adding greatly to the sound and not detracting from anything. Then when the Cranleigh instrument was built and advertised I discovered that Manders had come to the same conclusion with the organ that I had reached for the piano . . . I hope that people have been enjoying the recordings chosen in this thread and particularly St Maximin. Built in 1775 by Isnard on principles of Dom Bedos it's very much at the heart of the organ. And that instrument is in a temperament considerably stronger than Kellner, a modified meantone. When we venture as far as Meantone, then things get really interesting. When the Finchcocks and Colt Collections came up for sale I minded to aim to keep some landmark instruments out of the fate of stulsification in museums. One of those instruments is the 18th century Holland barrel organ preserving significant Handel repertoire, but others include a Stodart grand of 1802 which I tuned first in Kirnberger III and then in Meantone. Dr Percy Scholes in the 1930s was under the impression that 18th century pianos were tuned in Meantone in England and so asked "How could Bach's 48 have been played in England in the 18th century?". That's another question but it led me to experiment. F minor and C minor are crucially interesting keys. F minor, the key of the grave, of darkest grief and despair. Here we have the Pacelbel Chaconne on the 1856 Sprague chamber organ at Hammerwood tuned to meantone - a sound that will grate on your equal tempered ears but which actually expresses the characteristics of F minor very supremely, and brings a sound so much more interesting for its meaningful wailing - On the 1802 Stodart the Haydn F minor variations become really interesting - at around 1:35:50 it starts to go into a passage that explores the weird. This does not happen in equal temperament at all. Of course I expect you to hurl insults at me of the worst sort for having the gall even to suggest that such tonalities have any place in what might be called music - but we do know that meantone was used and it's mind-expanding at least to ask why, and possibly find experience. On Thursday a friend brought his old piano teacher to try my instruments, the lady being quite renowned and very revered by some, and she started playing Chopin on the Stodart. I was shocked, knocked sideways. Only such a musician could handle it and how was utterly extraordinary. Another friend had recorded the Beethoven Tempest on it. and this is a recording I really like. It's particularly interesting because the connexion with Shakespeare had been purely anecdotal and legendary. But upon hearing this and reading https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_tempesta&prev=search through this performance it's entirely apparent that the plot of "The Enchanted Isle" is the plot of the music, and the mysterious, the strange, the etherial and supernatural becomes palpable. The equivalent recording by Paul Badura Skoda is very lovely, but less palpably mysterious. You might find closeness of the playing - the two pianists were friends. Perhaps you might find the equal temperament modern instrument more pleasant to listen to. But those passages describing the distortion of reality by Beethoven weren't composed to be pleasant. They are delightfully expressed in Meantone, just as some 20th century music is not composed to sound pleasant. This was the 18th and 19th century equivalent just as the premier Kyrie of Couperin of his Mass for Convents and Parishes lurches from calmness to pain, again, not well expressed without Meantone. although perhaps I prefer the more recent performance by the late Pierre Bardon to that of Chapius The forays by Mander into Kellner are the bridge between our accustomed tonality and the wonder of something very special. Best wishes David P
  8. Hmm . . . as a musician the tonality of the instrument might just possibly be a matter of interest. I've actually had this debate in the piano world, being bludgeoned over the head by equal temperamentalists who swear that ET was used exclusively from the time of Montal, but it's the tonality of the instrument that wins the day when heard and experienced by musicians now offered a choice on how their Steinway, Bechstein or Bosendorfer can sound. It's nothing to do with HIPP but the limitation or enlargement of tone colour that throwing the scale off the mechanical contrivance of the twelfth root of two can achieve. Best wishes David P
  9. Hmm. I understand the issue leaves some cold and seems only theoretical, but the way in which the scale notes interact with the harmonics of the instrument has a great bearing on what the instrument sounds like, its tonality in its acoustic. This is why I have included here the examples from St Maximin. It also affects, limiting or broadening the tonal structure of stops that an organ builder can include in the instrument. Yes - one can fake it but it's not the same. Best wishes David P
  10. The interesting thing about Kellner as chosen by Mander is that the very "worst" thirds aren't very much more unacceptable than equal temperament thirds. Organs are a particular specie of instrument with continuous tone and exact mathematical relationship of interlocking tuning, as well also as an inability to vary the sound. That's why arguably those with valid objections to unequal temperaments on the organ have a point that becomes very real and especially when the temperament becomes more extreme possibly this being as far as this instrument might be taken, perhaps even beyond although it's particularly great and certainly remarkable for Bach with a sound that's undeniably exciting, and of which the tuning is a part. So horses for courses but this is a modified meantone. Kellner as chosen by Mander is much gentler, more subtle, and will play with a large acoustic to build resonance in a most harmonious way. My experience recently is with tuning pianos where the temperament is important and behaves in a different way than with organs, and where the effect of scale notes resonating with harmonics of the bass is a real tonal improvement and a matter of great excitement. It enables pedalling as specified by both Beethoven and Chopin to be restored. At both Canterbury and at St Paul's London the acoustic would support Kellner most wonderfully and I believe at no loss to the expression and interpretation of the repertoire. Here's the testimony of a singer . . . and an organ builder who relates how an Oxford College is currently using an unequal temperament without even realising it. . . And this raises interesting questions as to who was tuning to what temperament. In the piano world Montal in the 1830s wrote a book about tuning equal temperament and himself manufactured upright pianos. These were not concert platform instruments. When the piano became the home entertainment centre for people to bash out the latest popular songs equal temperament never sounded wrong. Always fuzzy the sound can go fuzzier without people realising it's out of tune. So we seem to look at composers composing in the equal temperament soundscape throughout the 19th century. But there is a problem when we move forward to the 20th century with Fauré and Debussy. . . . whose music sounds really wonderful, and particularly more beautiful on the piano in an unequal temperament. So might there have been a difference between tuning for home instruments and those for the top musicians and concert halls? Because of inharmonicity and the stretching of piano tuning, a stretched equal temperament third isn't much different from an unstretched Kellner worst third using Pianoteq piano simulation: I'd still like to know where it's possible to hear Mander organs tuned to Kellner! Best wishes David P
  11. It's not necessarily just about intervals - it's about beats, difference frequencies being discordant, and tone. When you're tuning an intrument and are close to the sound source, pipes or strings, an equal temperament major third will produce a difference note two octaves down but a quarter tone sharp which grates. If the major third is wider then the difference note is further away than the two octaves down and less associated. If it's purer, then it reinforces. The major third is the 4th and 5th harmonic of a fundamental, so create a false fundamental in just the same way as playing 5ths on pedals produces a false 32ft sound. On a well tuned instrument extra notes can sound resulting from harmonics, and this makes the sound richer. So play a C an octave below tenor C, an E above tenor C and then you'll find an extra note sounding as an E above middle C. In equal temperament it's merely a beating fuzz but on a well tuned instrument the note is there, solid. And it's in this that the resonance of the instrument and the acoustic can be changed, and for the better. Those of us who are brass players will lip notes into tune to bring perfect intervals together and string quartets likewise. The demonstration of the Kakaki, for the announcement of the arrival of the Emir, shows what happens when resonance is arranged properly: Later on I demonstrated with the Sesquialtera the relationship between beating harmonics with temperament: This has an impact on how Tierces sound in an instrument and the composition of the mixtures which have an enormous bearing upon the tone of the instrument and the tone colours which can be represented in the music. Best wishes David P
  12. Colin - THANK YOU SO MUCH for that gem of research. Fascinating. I'll have to dissect it in greater detail but it's very intriguing. For anyone interested the seminar is on with a better edit of the section in the middle on and a recent concert with the piano tuned in Kellner as Mander chose for many organs Best wishes David P
  13. From one point of view I can agree with you but from the other, already in this thread we've heard from David Drinkell about the improvement of tone of the instrument that the subtle change of tuning has created - no bad thing - and by bringing nicer sounds into the aural realm there's their effect on more sensitive musicians who create music to make a beautiful sound, and so don't just go faster and faster. Certainly in the pianistic world the difference that tuning can have on performance is quite profound even if the audience themselves haven't picked up on the intervallic discrepancies from the norm. For this reason I believe the subject to be more worthy of attention than one attempting to pick up water. It goes to the heart of music and why we make it. Whether an organ or a piano and whether or what the builder or brand, the instrument is only the conveyance of the sound. Where does the sound come from? The pipes or strings. Where do the sounds of those come from? The vibrations of the air inside or surrounding them. Where do those vibrations come from? Their tuning. Tuning is at the heart of instruments, and of music itself. Best wishes David P
  14. At the seminar the other day we were most privileged to have been joined by Martin Renshaw. He enlightened me that Willis organs were in their own temperament, not equal, and that nor were Cavaillé-Coll's . . . I haven't seen much about this from other sources. Does anyone know of any? Best wishes David P
  15. Colin - thanks so very much for your insight and comment on Padgham's researches and in particular with respect to differences between 5th comma and 6th comma Meantone temperament not being very dissimilar. It also clears up confusion where some say that Mozart liked Equal Temperament - in your point out that 6th Comma Meantone is an equal temperament in its way. As a musicological device I like 1/4 comma meantone beyond merely Couperin and the Baroque almost as an x-ray into the music taking to the extreme what other temperaments lead to and ensures that we don't miss it. We can then either remain in 1/4 comma or, having taken note, transfer nuances into more subtle 1/6 comma or Werkmeister >> Vallotti series of temperaments whilst retaining the spirit. I was put onto the effects of 1/4 comma meantone by Orde Hume's book on Barrel Organs. He said that it was very difficult to adjust our ears to their tuning as it made us wince and was intended to do so. So this led me to look at how music was heard, performed and appreciated in such a temperament. One of the pieces which demonstrates something really interesting is the Beethoven Tempest. In Meantone the ethereal passages come through making the connexion with Shakespeare's "Enchanted Isle" https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_tempesta (use google translate) as plain as daylight. When we take this into Kirnberger III and on a more familiar sounding instrument and by a different performer in Equal Temperament Whilst this relates to piano repertoire the same principles are relevant with organs and why Mander's venture into Kellner is particularly commendable and to be encouraged very much. Best wishes, David P.
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