Pierre Lauwers
-
Posts
3,317 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Pierre Lauwers
-
-
I mentionned this extremely interesting restoration here:
http://www.mander-organs.com/discussion/in...?showtopic=2970
Pierre
-
A new Scoop this one: "The" Bach Toccata at the J. Wagner organ of Angermünde,
and with a good quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8A07eFGB-c
THAT is a baroque sound!!!
Pierre
-
"Even if this is simply vandalism on the part of one priest, it pales into insignificance when compared with the destruction of instruments in the UK.
We got off to a bad start with Oliver Cromwell, but actually, the sheer indifference towards the organ-maker's art has seen the destruction of hundreds, if not thousands of instruments in the UK; making Oliver Cromwell just the warm-up act for the real party."
(Quote)
YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!
(Up to recently)
Pierre
-
As we discussed on the french forum, we discovered that at 3 ' 20", there is a view of six
pipes of the heavy-wind Jubal Flöte; a square, wooden pipe with two mouths.
You can read the Specifications of the organ here by scrolling down the central window:
http://christuskirche.org/?orgel_steinmeyer
Pierre
-
A superb post-romantic german organ -with a Fernwerk- from 1911,
carefully restored in two times, 1984 and 1995:
Pierre
-
Here is a link that might be interesting:
The "Fernwerk" ("remote division") is back also. This is a main feature
of the post-romantic german organ.
Where there was one, it was much used in all kinds of music (think of Reger...)
One cannot have enough soft stops in an organ, this is what (should?) be
used at least 50% of the time (from ppp to p)
Too much traffic ? Too much travels in those noisy planes ?
Whatever it may be, it seems we have lost some audition abilities. Or the neo-baroque
organ, with its flat tonal dispersion, has accustomed us to hear the pipes as if
we were sitting on the soundboards ?
Pierre
-
Since one day that it appeared in the news section, nobody started
a thread yet, so I will open it; mind you, the link is on the french forum
since yesterday already, where it meets with some interest, well, even attention
(to say the least):
http://www.mander-organs.com/portfolio/st-...s-southall.html
Continental historians see Abraham Jordan as a kind of myth, someone
completely exotic: this guy built a Swell division in St-Magnus the Martyr,
London, in....1712 !
(In Belgium, we had to wait up to about 1850, just to give a point to compare with...)
And now we can hear that Swell Trumpet, box closed, simply by clicking on the link
towards a video on Youtube. And this, in an instrument which interest goes far beyond
that; the tone of the flue stops seems to be delicate and sweet -recorded in the workshop,
so without even an acoustic to help-.
This restoration is a great news. Please, go on and restore more so tipically british
baroque (and others!) organs as closest possible to their original state.
Mr Mander (and others) can do it, as we can see and hear. But they need to be asked
to do so, so maybe a part of the move lies in your own hands, the organists.
Pierre
-
.....As for tierce Mixtures, there are already much pages here about the matter....
It might be interesting to hear this again:
(Joachim Wagner organ, Angermünde, next to the polish border. Definitely
one of my preffered organs!)
Pierre
-
"I think we have to face the truth that when it comes to "English Organs," almost everything is up for grabs, and an international mix and (mis?)match seems to be the order of the day."
(Quote)
AMEN !
Pierre
-
This practice was known in Northern Germany since the 17th Century.
It is an interesting substitute to the Pedal coupler -which does not exist
in those organs-.
Even better: Joachim Wagner of Berlin built organs with borrowings from one manual
to another alreday in the first half of the 18th century.
As for extensions, it is probable Eugenio Casparini already tried that system in 1700
-at least!-.
Pierre
-
Ahh, this bass bias....Very true.
My amplifier has those things my B&W loudspeakers never need: "tone correctors",
you know, those stupid "bass" and "treble" buttons that are there only to get rust
on their contacts. Scratch-scratch after a while. How do I do to by-pass them ?
Let us imagine a belgian organist comes for the Tea- (organ!) Party, a lad who never
heard any british organ -yes, there are-.
Well , will I use something from this pile(s) of LPs I throw back from the UK ?
1970's stuff, crammed with Open Woods, more or less huge Open Diapasons (often leathered)
big Claribels, Tubas and Trombas, Contra-this and that, and some would-be "baroque"
high-pitched ranks 100 Miles apart from the rest ?
No, for the sake of it, let us take a recent CD you can find today:
Alexandre Guilmant
Septième Sonate (and others works)
Joris Verdin
Orgue Willis de Dundalk
RICERCAR RIC 267
The CD begins with that seventh Sonata, in a quite full combination.
The first "normal" reaction of my guest would be to grasp those correctors: "Bass"
to zero, "treble" to the Maximum!
But if you do that, the "Bass" button cuts 90% away, while the "treble" one increases
nearly nothing, because there is very few to increase.
It needs a rather long time to get accustomed to such a sound, but you end up realizing
the best way is to leave those tone correctors on "flat", exactly as with all others organs.
They simply are beautiful that way. In their way.
Heavy, large basses, thin treble. And this, as MM pointed out, because of acoustic reasons; the
british organ, however big it may be, remains an Orgue de choeur by continental standards.
With the old Worcester Cathedral organ, you had one of the most powerfull Swells I never met with
just above your head, hair (head?)-cutting.
French reeds in that position ? Would you really do that ?
The "large Bass-thin treble" bias may well be grounded in acoustics reasons. Short distances,
little rooms.
But there is more to it.
It seems the british voicers took much pain to remove much harmonics from their pipes, in an
aim to get a "pure", clean tone.
Arthur Harrison was well known for that, but he was not alone; it is a british trait.
Next to an Open Diapason, any german Prinzipal -except the neo-baroque ones, which differ
greatly from any older model- sounds like a Gamba.
The reeds, as already mentionned, are smooth and rattle-free (save some possible exceptions,
as always), however clear they may be in baroque organs and Willis organs.
The CD is not, therefore, the right manner to discover such organs. You must hear them
in Situ first. Impossible to understand the old Worcester Cathedral organ without having
toured the entire building while the organ was playing. Then, you understand the problems
the organ -and the organist!- faced.
The british style exists; it is one of the most idiosyncratic on Earth, blatantly recognizable.
It emerged from practical, acoustic traits, foreign influencies, and a taste for warm, smooth,
"clean" tones, tones that were intended to be heard nearby by those singing boys.
Pierre
-
And with any thuringian organ from the Bach period, it becomes soon
evident the 8' flues are made to be used in combination; not necessarily
the four (often the case on the HPTW) togheter, but two or three.
8-4-2-Mixture won't work there, save in a Silbermann in Saxony
(an outsider there, as we know, trained in France).
Where was the 8' Principal used alone, without a stopped rank added ?
In Italy -but sometimes with the Voce umana-.
Pierre
-
Well, Dom Bédos also drawn the 8' Bourdons with the 8' Montres !
Pierre
-
====================
I think this is largely right, but the interesting thing is, Pierre knows a British organ when he hears it, and he's not wrong.
So would I, but for the life of me, I can't properly explain it.
MM
Now here we have something quite interesting; it is true that it is not easy to explain
the tone of the british organ,with words, compared with the others.
But it indisputably stands out.
As for the style as a modern one, we should maybe bear in mind no style whatsoever
comes from the heaven; you cannot "design a new style" from scratch. You always
build upon the past, even if the aim is to innovate for the future. This means any modern
british style will be of necessity deeply influenced by the previous ones, from Father Smith (at least!)
up to Compton an the "Reform" that followed, with Hill, Willis I, Lewis, Hope Jones & al in between.
Pierre
-
And, presumably, Gloucester. The only other instrument which sounds like this is the organ of Chartres Cathedral, after the Gonzales rebuild.
Yes,
As I said, genuine, typical styles might be better preserved in remote villages than in towns.
And of course, the acoustics play a vital role in the very definition of any style.
The spanish organ evolved in huge stone churches. Its horizontal, low-pressure reed stops
could not have been imagined for british or thuringian churches.
A fact remains.
If I take a sample series from my CDs collection, with, say, three german organs, three french
ones, three dutch ones, and two british ones,from whatever period, those will stand out immediately
as quite different.
Another "little village thing":
Pierre
-
Even another little Forster & Andrews (1864) organ in Cornwall:
Those "little out-of-tune things" are a big asset to any Orgellandschaft. How do you think one
could hear the thuringian village organs 30 years ago ?
A style is more evident by far in little organs, with witch a strict sense of priorities must obtain;
moreover, they are less "updated" than the bigger ones.
Shame on me I did not visit Cornwall !
Pierre
-
"There's something about the blend and smoothness of a British organ that isn't quite matched elsewhere. "
(Quote)
Well, here we begin to agree....Might a consensus emerge eventually ?
To my continental ears, a british organ, be it baroque, romantic or post-romantic, is to be recognizable
by hearing it for five minutes, with the possible exception, among those which I heard in Situ, of
Armley -a german organ-.
I begin with some hints:
-The Diapasons. Compared with continental Principals, they are more foundational, bolder.
The Diapason chorus relies less on the harmonic of the pipes to stick togheter; rather,
each rank takes its place one above the other. This is true for every period, even the Byfield
I linked to above show this trait.
There is no such a Principal chorus to be found on the continent -save with imported-rescued
british organs-.
-The reeds. Again, already in the Byfield, there is absolutely no rattle to be heard, save maybe
in the first half of the lowest octave. Continental reeds always rattle, more (the french) or less
(leathered shallots german ones), but on the entire compass; this adds harmonics which are absent
with the british models.
-Warmth in the tone of the ensemble. Maybe like a cosy lounge, there is always a richness,
a boldness, a warmth of tone that distinguishes the british organ from the next one.
The british organ may be the fruit of multiple influencies from abroad -like the belgian organ
or the thuringian one- but all those borrowings were immediately modified to suit a style
that is very well recognizable from abroad.
Take this modest one, from remote Cornwall:
100% british.....And even more significant is this one:
Believe it or not, this is a kind of sound we much like on the continent, and do not have . They are even more better displayed in that simple manner. This organ would find many amateurs here, and, indeed, candidate churches.
Pierre
-
Dear MM,
It might seem you would not be disturbed so much if it could be stated there is nothing
like a british style at all.
There is nothing save The Netherlands, Germany and the Czech Republik.
Pierre
-
Maybe this could be interesting, as something we from abroad feel to be "quite british":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J3vUIZAvLU...feature=related
The organ has already a Swell, the only Mixture is a Sesquialtera, the Diapasons,
the reeds are very "special" to our ears...
Pierre
-
A little (?) gem of the northern early Baroque:
http://kulturportal.maerkischeallgemeine.d...onats-Juli.html
Nor coughs nor screams !
Pierre
-
If we do not regonize anything as a "british style" at all, how could
we find it in new organs ?
Should we start with the tone maybe ?
A dedicate warmth of tone ?
Pierre
-
"Forster & Andrews supposedly influenced by Schulze, but if I recall correctly, using Topfer scaling."
(Quote)
Why "but" ? Schulze was a friend of Töpfer, and, indeed, he was the first of the (few then!)
german builders to use Töpfer's scaling method...
Pierre
-
Peace on Earth ! If we all agreed upon any dedicate idea, what would we do here
save social entertainment ?
The paradoxes, the contradictions, are the food of any debate. One learns nothing
without opposition; actually, we must thank the people who oppone us, because they help
us to go further in our own learning process.
Back to the topic now !
Pierre
-
Well, dear MM, I slightly doubt we are about to spread any light on the
subject yet....
The evolution towards an incomplete Great, something like this:
GRAND ORGUE
Bourdon 8'
Montre 8'
Flûte harmonique 8'
Gambe 8'
Prestant 4'
RECIT
Quintaton 16'
Gambe 8'
Voix céleste 8'
Flûte traversière 8'
Flûte octaviante 4'
Quinte 3'
Octavin 2'
Plein-jeu 3r
Basson 16'
Trompette harmonique 8'
Clairon harmonique 4'
....Is a mean feature of little organs -up to medium ones sometimes-
of the Post-romantic period, and this, worldwide.
It seems the idea belongs to E-M Skinner. In "The modern organ", he explain
modern actions having suppressed the heavyness of touch, there obtain no
objection more to the frequent use of the couplers.
And as a reed chorus and Mixture offer more possibilities when enclosed, the bigger
voices are also "exported" towards an enclosed division.
There are still organs built after that model in Alsace, for example by Rinckenbach,
from the yars 1900-1910.
Same with the "Positif expressif" as a second enclosed division; this was very often made in France and Belgium from
about 1890 to 1940, from the late years of Cavaillé-Coll up to Maurice Delmotte.
Pierre
Youtube
in General discussion
Posted
A Bach fugue on the 1906 Gebrüder Link organ of Giengen-an-der Brenz:
An incredibly polyphonic Post-romantic organ, which colors do not differ widely
from those of a Trost organ...
Pierre