Pierre Lauwers
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Posts posted by Pierre Lauwers
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Going back for a moment to the northern organ, I sometimes feel disconfortable
with the way they are registred today, and found an example here:
....Though this is a superb organ, beautifully played, I am convinced that
Sesquialter or Terzian was never intended to be used that way. Or Schnitger
was going deaf like Beethoven...
Pierre
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As we evoke Böhm on another thread, here is his "Vater unser"
played by my friend Luc Devos on a belgian historic organ from...1866.
Yes; hear for yourself the kind of organs that were still built here then:
Pierre
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See here for the Hamburg organ:
http://www.arpschnitger.nl/shamb.html
The organ has four manuals, with three "Postivs", among which
there is actually one tonal structure splitted between two manuals.
Schnitger took ancient material over from a previous organ, which had
already four manuals.
(The "Hinterwerk" was already known at that time, by the way...)
Pierre
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So weit, so gut.
Let us then see the Specifications of the Lüneburg organ when
Bach knew it:
RÜCKPOSITIV,
Principal 8'
Quintaden 8'
Octave 4'
Hohlflöte 4'
Sieflöte 1'
Sesquialtera
Mixtur
Scharff
Regal 8'
Baarfeiffe 8'
Schalmey 4'
WERCK,
Principal 16'
Octave 8'
Octave 4'
Nachthorn 2' (basse)
Mixtur
Scharff
Trommette 8' (basse)
Cornette 2' (basse)
OBERWERCK,
Principal 8'
Hohlflöte 8'
Octave 4'
Nasat 3'
Superoctave 2'
Cymbel
Trommette 8'
PEDAL
Untersatz 16' (not full compass...)
The Pedal was permanently coupled to the Werck by pull downs.
Independent, "Werkprinzipisierter Pedal " ?
Ach, so !!!
(As you said, Böhm had a new Pedal division built.....After Bach's time there)
Now another point.
It seems the "modern late-Baroque Pedal" does indeed not always work
for Bach.
Here is a Video from Altenburg which might be interesting to illustrate the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXQgeCq0QhE
....Here, we have a slight problem, oder ?
But here, the Pedal is piccobello to the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ2pZgMSMUI...feature=related
Pierre
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"if Bach was (one of) the first to use the Pedal as a suboctave division, where does this leave the Werkprinzip? I always thought that one of its aims was to provide clear octave distinctions between the various divisions (or is this a neo-Baroque misunderstanding?)"
(Quote)
The organ evolved incredibly fast precisely during Bach's career, and precisely in his area; to the point
the central german organ took over the leadership in tonal design upon the north afterwards.
The Pedal went from one role to another: the "Cantus firmus Pedal", with high-pitched soloists, was
replaced by a "Bass Pedal", with less high-pitched stops and more deep-pitched ones.
As for the Werkprinzip, as I already wrote, this was completely foreign to the organs
Bach played. The organs built in his area during his time did not even have a Rückpositiv
save if there were a previous case to be re-used, while the Pedal division was at the back...
Pierre
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......And I guess it would even suit Bach better than a Schnitger.
The Specifications can be found here towards the middle of the page:
http://reliwiki.nl/index.php?title=Gorinch..._7_-_Grote_Kerk
Pierre
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There is mine, which deals in french with organs from the whole world:
http://organographia.cultureforum.net/
Pierre
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If you want an "all-purpose organ", this was done here in 1853, and I doubt
we did better since:
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Ccf5jBalE
Pierre
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==========================
There's nothing wrong with that approach; especially since the organ would have been known by Bach.
I haven't heard this organ live of course, but knowing how dominant the pedal reeds of Schnitger can be, I don't doubt what Pierre is saying for a moment. I think Pierre agrees with my observation that Both Trost and Schnitger produced similar types of pedal reed, (broadly speaking), and what is very striking about the Schnitger reeds I have experienced first hand, is the fact that they have so much fundamental tone, rather than the sharper, more harmonically rich reeds of, say, France. In fact, I know that the manual and pedal reeds together, sound very close to a consort of baroque brass instruments , and can be used without any flues drawn at all.
It's all quite a revelation when you hear it at first hand, and completely removed from any English practice of which I am aware.
MM
Yes !
Trost's (an the others) reeds stops are very like Schnitger's. This is a point where the differencies between
northern and central german organs is little.
But there were fewer reeds stops in Thuringian organs than in Schnitgers; especially, the Regals were seldom
save the Vox humana.
The "Hautbois" (under differing writings like "hauboi" etc) was a kind of Schalmey, somewhere between
the Regal and the modern Hautbois or Oboe. According to Boxberg's description of the Casparini organ of
Görlitz, it was a chorus stop, not a soloist.
Very fundamental tone, indeed, with wood resonators and leathered shallots.
(Addenda): It is worthy of note, though, that Gottfried Silbermann introduced french reeds
in the area.
Joachim Wagner took those stops over, and built rather "frenchy" trumpets and Vox humanas,
which correspond to the french standards; a "Grand jeu" can be made in Angermünde,
for instance.
Hear on this page the "Klangbeispiel" towards the middle of the page:
http://www.angermuender-sommerkonzerte.de/wagner_orgel.htm
Pierre
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The source is my experience in Situ.
If you go there and try the organs, this becames
soon obvious; the only real reed chorus you can find
in those organs is on the Pedal; it goes from a 16' alone
up to 32-16-8-4-2 (in the north). And they orvershadow
the flues, in proportion, like in a romantic organ.
On the manuals it is the reverse: the reeds never overtake
the flue choruses.
Have a trip there !
Pierre
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When, in a german baroque organ, you draw the 16' Posaune,
no flue stop is to be heard any more, be them one or five.
So the obvious way is to shut them whenever the reeds are used.
Pierre
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"The chorus mixtures invariably include Tierces, in the 4' series in the bass but breaking back to the 16' series in the treble - yes - you'll find a 3 1/5 tierce in the Great mixture of even quite a modest 2 manual Trost."
(Quote)
.....And you will find just that in many others organs in that area, not only Trosts.
And why ?
Because the 8' tierce rank is in the Sesquialtera ! the Mixture "goes round the Sesquialtera",
which is mandatorily drawn before the Mixture.
Dura Lex....
Pierre
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Indeed, there are not many.
First example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz6MlY3MVQ0...feature=related
Another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CALzxblaOQ...feature=related
Quite interesting registration here too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAGMogLQm1M...feature=related
....And also here. The crispness, the accuracy, the clarity, you need them in the foundation stops
or nothing else will provide it. Demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjsZ9NDCHwo...feature=related
.....And this remains true with rapid tempis, where there is no need for Schreinendwerk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7PdxPjtZRE...feature=related
Pierre
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The Mixtures in Naumburg sound rather modern to my ears...
Pierre
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I agree with MM about the playing.
The registration could be more imaginative by far with this organ, but
this would be immediately questionned by the "Mixture all the way long" theology....
As for the tierce Mixtures:
1)- Bach had precisely that, and only that, at hand with 90% of the organs
he played in the area he lived in 90% of his lifetime.
This was the normal Mixture scheme in that area, save with Silbermann
(trained in France) and some "Ripieno" on secondary manuals in certain
organs (Casparini pupils, Scheibe...)
2)- I agree they are tiresome if used too longly. But those strong stops were
never intended to be used the way we do now ! As I said, there are plenty of alternatives
for a P&F in a Trost organ.
One would never draw, on a romantic organ, the strongest stops (Trumpets, Tromba, Tuba...)
all the way through a 10' piece, agreed ?
In a Trost organ the (only two!) Mixtures are the very last thing one has to draw, they are even
stronger than the few chorus reed stops. They are meant for climaxes, or a short Prelude.
I cannot imagine Bach would have used them for ten minutes at a time.
"Perhaps not a zillion miles away from Schnitger pedal reeds, with their leather faced shallots."
(Quote)
Yes, agreed ! all the reed stops I could examine there have leathered shallots, but usually
only in the bass.
"Would I travel to hear this organ?"
(Quote)
I think you should. But then, you should be allowed to try for yourself, at lenght,
to registrate and play it in a way that would suit your own musical sense. I believe
the results could be interesting...
Pierre
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So weit, so gut; here is the Specifications of an organ
which works extremely well in Bach's P&Fs with only 30 stops:
http://www.die-orgelseite.de/disp/D_Angermuende_StMarien.htm
There is a tierce rank in the Scharff (HPTW), while the Quinta and Tertia
of the OW can be added to the Principal chorus.
Video:
....But this registration does not tell us all: the organ presents a wide palette of alternatives
in those P&Fs. As absolutely all combinations work -you can draw blindly whatever stops and it works-,
you could try, for example, a mini-Grand jeu (Trompet+Kornett), a 8-8-4, a 8-8-4-2,
a Principal 8' + Flute 4' or a Bourdon 8' + Principal 4'...There is just enough chiff to get a fine
articulation so that all styles of playing are possible, Legato included; no "Tschack-tschack" to
be feared then.
This is one of the best organs I know for Bach -and per se-.
Pierre
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"What do the more disscerning amonst you think??"
(Quote)
As I am of course not among them, I shall let them discuss over
the merits of this organ in Bach's music, and keep my tongue in cheek,
he he he....
Pierre
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Kein Problem, MM, any contradictions & discussions are welcome !
"The more serious question musically, is to ask WHY Bach's music translates so well to such a wide variety of instruments, and indeed, to such a wide variety of organs."
(Quote)
My two Cents: Besides the huge value of the music itself, which will percolate
through any instrumental means because of its quality:
-The central and southern german baroque organs became the models to be followed towards
the end of the 18th century. It "took the north over", and became the basis upon which
the romantic organ evolved. (Central: Jehmlich, Ladegast, Schulze... Southern: Walcker).
-And as all romantic organs worldwide were deeply influenced by this german development
(Where do you think Cavaillé-Coll's "Viole de Gambe" came from ?), it is not surprising
Bach's music can cope with them, and, to a certain degree, what followed, though I personnaly
believe the neo-baroque organs do not fit that music.
Here is an interesting example of how Bach goes upon an early Walcker organ,
that is, like a hand in a glove -up to tierce Mixture-:
.....It is interesting to compare that with a crude, "village" thuringian organ (built byVolkland):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV8qfMJew1I
.....As for the "romantic foundation stops", here are authentic baroque ones to be heard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovFjxHj7PxE...feature=related
Sorry, but this is genuine "Bach sound", and it is still available....
As for why Bach "goes better" on a romantic organ than Howells on a Trost, the half of the question
is answered above, while it is evident it is easier to leave a swell pedal and a Crescendo Pedal
alone than to have to imitate them with mechanical, heavy stop handles....
Pierre
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Would Alfred Brendel choose to play Beethoven on a piano with the sound of one from 1800, or would he choose the best sounding instrument available in 2010?
Surely there is a difference between understanding how the music sounded to the composer and imitating that sound?
JC
1)- What means "best" ?
2)- So we should know how it sounded, an then do whatever ?
The end result can only be: all electronic.
Nein, Danke !
Pierre
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"So I have to suggest that any sort of historical or stylistic straight-jacket may well be counter productive and possibly inartistic, because once the performer is compelled to do this or that, we take the music out of one era and place it in another."
(Quote)
What I understand from this:
1)- It is uninteresting to study the organs Bach actually played;
2)- The organs Bach played were not the "good" ones, because we think
he belonged to another era and place than his own one. Which one ?
We decide.
Am I wrong ?
Pierre
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Ah, the Pedal Mixture Mantra !
Some hints:
-The independant Pedal Mixtures were a northern feature.
In the area where Bach lived 90% of his lifetime, save in the biggest
Silbermanns (the little Silbermann had often just a few stops, 16-8 flues + 16 reed),
there were either no Pedal Mixture, or it was borrowed from the great (this is
the case with Scheibe and Trost).
As an example, here is the Specifications of the Pedal in the Leipzig Scheibe
organ Bach praised so much:
PEDAL
Gross Principal-Bass 16' (Borrowed from HPTW)
Gross Quinta-Tön-bass 16'(HPTW)
Sub-bass 16'
Octav-bass 8' (HPTW)
Jubal-Bass 8'
Nacht-Horn-Bass 8'
Gross-Hell-Quintbass 6'
Octav Bass 4' (HPTW)
Quint-Bass 3' (HPTW)
Octav-Bass 2'
Holl-Flöten-Bass 1'
Mixtur-Bass 6r (HPTW)
Posaunen-Bass 16'
Trompeten-Bass 8'
It is interesting to note we have here the "new style" Pedal, with a bias towards
deep tones, and the "old style" as well (Cantus firmus, also with high-pitched stops),
togheter. As Bach belonged to both styles, we may suppose this scheme might
be interesting...)
Pierre
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Dear Martin,
At the point we are now, that is, mid-2010, I think an interesting
way to question Bach's registration would be a tour in Saxe and Thuringia,
plus the Brandenburg (because of the Joachim Wagner organs) with your
pile of music scores.
And play the organs, the village's ones included: the Trosts, the Wagners,
but also the others, less well-known ones.
(I suggested just that to some belgian organists, the result was a change
in their practice. I already wrote here about that matter, but nothing can replace
one's own discoveries).
And finally, to make your own religion with it.
Pierre
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This organ ranks very, very high on my "top-list"; one of the very
finest we have.
I cross my fingers. There, I would have changed nothing. Not a nail,
nor the (thin) cushions of the chairs. Maybe not even their color !
Pierre
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"I cannot help but think that once one tampers with the original scheme everything starts to come "out of joint". "
(Quote)
YES !
(Whatever this original scheme may be).
Pierre
Registration of Bach
in The Organ
Posted
"I played it my way at Armley"
(Quote)
Aaaargh !
Pierre