Jonathan Thorne
-
Posts
176 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Jonathan Thorne
-
-
I find threads about new instruments and photos of the work in progress very interesting. I enjoyed watching the progress of the Tickell organ at Worcester, the Klais at Leeds, and the St Martin instrument at Petersham. I'm unclear why the new Aubertin in Denmark has caused a problem. Photos of all these instrument give me a chance to see things that I wouldn't normally see and thereby increase my understanding and appreciation of what goes into the making of a modern organ.
Nigel's enthusiasm for Aubertin instruments is widely known, yet his postings are factual, without purple prose and unnecessary gushing. He is one of the most kindly and wise members of the Mander forum and I hope this is simply a one-off curbing of his contributions. It would be very sad to see him depart, along with the much-missed Cynic.
Regards
Oscar
I agree with the comments about seeing new organs like Worcester etc. I also agree about Nigel's enthusiasm and also his common sense.
However I am not happy in the way Mander Organs have treated this posting. It seems that the initial posting was so powerful that it caused offence to Mander Organs and how does one know what the person said when the post has been deleted? That seems rather unfair to me. I've read over and over again the guidelines of the Mander forum and I can not see why they would just willy nilly delete a post without justification. There is a sentence saying
"The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this bulletin board. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary".
So who was the person who found it necessary to delete this post?
It goes on to say that " We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so", but it does not say that it has a legal right!
The "guidelines" also go on to say "This discussion forum is to be used only for non-commercial purposes. Participants may not solicit funds, promote commercial entities or otherwise engage in commercial activity in the forum." Well what about Worcester Cathedral, Youtube films and the latest one "Classic FM Hall of Fame, Your chance to show that the organ really matters - There's plenty of organ music on the list at http://www.classicfmhalloffame.co.uk/#votingForm and what better way to get ourselves and the organ heard."! (apologies to Nick Bennett for use of his link!) Oh and another one "Recitals, Alert your fellow organists!".
All these are in breach of the above clause, but have Mander organs deleted them ? Of course not!
Next one is this :-
Forum Misuse Policy:
* 1st Offence
A polite Private Message from a Moderator pointing out the Forum Rules, in addition to the editing or deletion of the post
* 2nd Offence
Public warning on the message board plus deletion of post
* 3rd Offence
Moderators will delete the user from the Mander Organs forum,
Depending on the situation, Moderators may bypass any and all of these steps and take whatever action is deemed appropriate.
I have to ask this did the person in question receive a polite message or did Mander Organs just jump to No.2 and publicly humiliate the said person? They seem to be contradicting their own clauses.
I'm sorry to have ignited in this field but I have found that no matter how against the guidelines one might be it is of the mood of the Mander forum if such a person should be deleted or not.
Are Mander organs really being fair?
p.s I'm copying this just in case it gets deleted!!
-
I've just been looking through the NPOR and have found a particular Cathedral Organ or merit which has had some major re-workings over it's life and has been awarded an Historic Organ Certificate surveyed in 2002 under the BIOS The Historic Organ Certificate Scheme. How is this justified and is it fair?
-
From time to time I wonder about stop names: when I am at the organ, investigating another which I not seen before, asked by someone who isn't quite sure what one is or just idly pondering the question while walking the dog. Now I'm actually thinking about it while reading the forum messages so here goes!
The titles sum it up really: When is an organ stop not the actual stop? When is a stop misnamed? How accurate are stop names and do we, quite often, have to make assumptions about a stop we use based on experience and knowledge?
OK, so we all go rushing to the dictionary of organ stops when we come across something unusual or exotic. (And I should add that this is something really focussed on English organs and their derivatives). Baryphon, Diapsason Phonon, Dolce, Flute a Pavillon, Orlos, Pyramidion and the like make us reach for the shelves. Open Diapason, Mixture (III / 2 / 15 19 22 / etc), Rohr Flute, Sesquialtera II, Trumpet etc etc seem to pose no problem and are taken as read with, often, no hint of excitement or interest. But, are they always what they seem?
We explain to people, that are interested, what stops are and what the names mean. 'This is what a Principal pipe looks like. The number refers to the length or pitch of the pipe at bottom C.' So far so good. But what about naming the stop? Unlike pitch (to some extent) do we name stops from what is at the bass end of the compass or by what the majority of the pipes are over that same compass? Oboe 8, Open Diapsaon 8, Principal 4, unless short compass are usually no problem. We know what the pipes look like and they are, in principle, the same throughout.
Some examples and puzzles:
Stopped Diapason - OK but does it have chimneys? Is it a Rohr / Chimney Flute? Does it matter?
Claribel / Clarabella - Open wood, but is it? stopped for the bottom octave? Some builders are truly honest here and write 'Stop'd Diapason & Claribel'.
Dulciana - Is the bass stopped wood?
Gamba or Viola?
Horn or Trumpet or Cornopean? These can change their names, especially after a clean-up or some attention by a builder. Does it matter?
Double Open Diapason - where the bass octave is stopped wood?
Mixtures are perhaps more problematic.
Sesquialtera II - We assume it is 12 / 17. Is it that at the bass or is it really a tertian bass, 17 / 19?
Sesquialtera III - 12 / 15 / 17 or 17 / 19 / 22 or the Hill style with teirce in the bass giving way to becoming a quint mixture for most of the compass?
Almost the same can be said for Cornet with or without the number of ranks designated or Echo Cornet.
There are probably many other examples. It seems to me that as organists we do really have to have a little more knowledge about the instrument, its construction, history, organ builders and their style than perhaps even we had realised.
Any thoughts and obsevations very welcome.
FW
Isn't there however a distinct difference between a Cremona and a Clarinet stop in it's construction? I know there are variants on the Spelling of Cremona from country to country but my understanding is that the Cremona or Cromorne is open at the top same scale roughly and a short taper at the base of the resonator, compared to a clarinet or any other name which is capped and slotted at the top narrower in scale and having a longer taper at the base of the resonator. The best form of this family I have found is 1. France - Poitiers Cathedral - the Cromorne 8ft on the positive and 2. UK - St. Pauls Cathedral Corno di Bassetto 8ft on the Solo.
-
Now this is something which can be discussed. I know of a particular diocesan advisor who has taken steps towards this by insisting that any builders working on his 'patch' are IBO registered. That means that there won't be any Drake work happening in that diocese, and nor many others who choose, for one reason or another, to steer clear of the IBO.
(Often the bodgiest of the bodge work is not done on the cheap, incidentally; far from it.)
Has anybody else ever browsed the IBO builder inspection reports and considered that the information given is sometimes at odds with the work they have seen in the real world? Would it not be better for the inspections to be carried out on a random basis by arrangement with the churches themselves through the existing diocesan systems, rather than the present arrangement where builders themselves are asked to select examples of their work for inspection?
Did anyone read my last post? The IBO bless them are ok in that they encourage members on training courses which is great and they have in their journal a compiled list of people who have been accredited for a particular type of work, ie. New organs; Tuning ; Historic Restoration - in fact according to the 2004 IBO Journal there are six categories in which the firms who have passed a visual and aural assessment of their work have been entered. They also give maps showing where these people are located, how many people are working for them, examples of their work sampled and membership offers. To me this sounds like a well organised institution. However I do have problems with (and has already been described above) certain organ advisors only choosing from this list. I don't think it's fair when having been told in the past by the IBO of three very highly regarded organ builders that unless they join the IBO they will never get any work. I hope this is no longer the case as an intention as clearly the three companies I have in mind are actually producing an outstanding quality of workmanship and consistency and are extremely busy, maybe more so than some of the bigger accredited organ builders who for some like to think they invented the instrument! I don't know how exactly the inspections are carried out but I am really left ashamed when hearing a really out of tune organ from a top class accredited member of the IBO and also from some who are falsely advertising a job still in their care!
-
Thanks for this information Martin. I would love to go and see the new organ sometime and am pleased to read it is now installed.
I just tried to find a website for the church - there doesnt seem to be one which I find most suprising for such an important building. Also, NPOR is not yet up-to-date and there are no location photos on the H&H website either.
Ah well - I'll just have to drive over and see it!!
Richard
I've just had the same experience and also realising there would be no point on looking at the NPOR!
-
Much as I prefer a (good) tracker-action, some of the best performances I've ever heard were played on instruments with EP, direct electric or even pneumatic actions.
Is it simply the case that main advantage of tracker-action is a well-proven, reliable design which requires minimal maintenance over a long period of time?
MM
Yes - tracker all the way.
-
I was quite surprised to find an advertisement (from one of our leading firms), for a general organ-builder:
He or she needs to deal with 'the interpretation of drawings and CAD...the manufacture of all component parts from small action parts to large slider soundboards, consoles and casework...assembly of mechanical action and electronic parts...ability for hand finishing of wood to a high standard and veneering...knowledge of a wide range of finishing techniques...carving of decorative details...design ability including freehand drawing and CAD...ideally qualified to degree standard or equivalent, and some musical knowledge would be an advantage.'
£10-£10.50 per hour.
This superwoman (or man) would obviously be a highly skilled woodworker: I know several tradesmen with much more primitive skills who earn four times as much or more.
How does this compare with other countries?
This smells like an IBO advert dedicated to those accredited and very professional organbuilders, but I hope it's also an advert that has gone beyond the inner ivory frames of the IBO and has found it's way in the wider circle and to those other organbuilders equally as busy and perfessoinal. It seems like it's come from a company in need for a jack of all trade, so maybe a well known smaller company. How old is the advert? I was surprised why in any UK organ building advert why they seek someone with a degree, when most English organ builders are don't like university people (I've had this rudeness put upon me maybe in fear or their insecurity that I might take their job) or they are so skilled anyway they could have Dr's and Prof's after their names! - I mean organ builders not the managing directors! The wage actually seems higher than I expected so it can't be a London firm can it? I can think of a few companies but I think I wouldn't be allowed to name them on this 'sensitive' website. I won't sleep now though - got to find out........zzzzzzzzzzzz.
-
I've only listened to 47 minutes of it and already I am horrified. It is clear that Graeme Kay is not thinking about the recordings e.g. action noise etc. I have the S Landale set and the Librun but I personally prefer the Landale, but I have also found merits in the Librun set. Has Graeme Kay actually recorded himself the complete works on organ on a Cavaillé-Coll? I though his presentation was patronising and reflects badly on the BBC - sorry guys.
-
No they don't!
The situation there is exactly the same as here: the larger Houses will make some, possibly the larger part, of their own pipes and buy other stuff in; many of the others will have their own metalhand who is capable of making an occasional stop and doing excellent repairs.
There are more independent pipemakers in each of those countries than there are in the UK.
DW
Ok - thanks for the clarification. I did witness though at Rieger that everything was made there from shallots, squares, drawstop heads and now I think they may be making their own drawstop solenoids and Solid State system previously bought from AJ Taylor, not to mention reusing off cuts of wood for their heating system!
On another note thanks DW for putting some excellent pictures up on your website of your latest adventures! The work looks fantastic!
Best wishes
JT
-
1) There are many far worse offenders with packed order books, despite the 40 year trail of devastation in their wake!
2) Absolutely nothing unusual. Drake and Tickell, for two, use a well-known UK pipe house. The cost of new instruments if every organbuilder of every size is expected to train and retain a team of pipemakers would be extraordinary.
3) Is this not partially or all to do with the skewed ways in which heritage funding is given - and, if not, to do with the consultant? The vast majority of the instrument is mechanical and that must be of some benefit.
I fully agree. I've played, heard in the building, been inside including the Apse and heard four fantastic recordings of the Milton organ - it kind of helps a bit when you know the organ tuner!!
1. I can also think of top UK firms who have produced less successful "musical" instruments. I do remember the Milton being a little on the tight inside, but I'm a tall person anyway.
2. Stinkens pipes have been used very much by Nicholsons in the 60's and 70's and there are some fantastic independent pipe makers now in the UK. However I don't agree 100% about the "cost of new instruments if every organbuilder of every size is expected to train and retain a team of pipemakers". It was once the norm in the UK for everything to me made in house. They certainly do it in Germany, Switzerland and Austria.
3. Nobody has mentioned the little Elliot organ that has just recently been restored. I helped out a bit with that. I think it lives on the south side behind the Milton organ.
4. I urge people to obtain recordings of the Abbey organs from Priory, Regent, Hyperion, VIF and Cantoris Records - if that recording is still around!
JT
-
I've decided to make this my next big piece to learn, having done the Widor Toccata for this first time recently.
Any specific tips as I begin? Particularly I was wondering how to treat the triple pedalling in the final section. Should it be played as written (if so, how?), or should I leave out one of the notes, or does it not matter?
As always, all advice gratefully received!
I don't play the piece myself as there are 7 other Sonatas to choose from but what I would say is be careful to get the correct edition - there have been many other interpretations of Guilmant's work which are not always accurate. I have more info if you are interested....
-
Could you advise us of the track list, Jonathan? Thanks.
P
Parade for Saint Peter Johnson Manning
Fancy Byrd
Paduana Lachrimae collorirt Sweelinck
Fantasia & Fugue in G minor, BWV 542 Bach
Voluntary in G Walond
Sonata in F minor, Op. 65, No. 1Mendelssohn
Adagio in E Bridge
Caprice in B flat major, Op. 20, No. 3 Guilmant
Carillon de Westminster Vierne
Try going to http://www.regent-records.co.uk for more deatils.
-
I'm surprised they don't have one of those fire escape 'rope ladders' for emergencies.
Ha Ha but they are not as over the top on health and safety as we are in the UK!....
-
Mander Organs and others may be interested no learn of a new release by Regent Records of the recent Mander organ of St Peter's Church, St Louis, Missouri. I'ts great and shows some wonderful colours. I'm listening to now!
All best
J
-
I have just been viewing a Dutch video of a Baroque organ, which has what must be a replacement tracker action. I would have expected each arm on a roller board to have a single hole through which the connection to the tracker would be threaded.
In this case the arms have two holes, so the tracker could be hooked to the one nearer to the roller, or the further one. This would obviously give a choice of leverage. However, surely the motion would have been designed from the start to hang the tracker in one of the positions.
Could these be arms put together from standard kit parts, or is there another explanation for the two holes?
Was it a pedal action you were looking at? By changing the hole would effect the ratio and as you said change the leverage.
-
Not sure but the organist on the picture to the right of it looks familiar....
-
Has anyone noticed that the (very small) photo of the console seems to have been designed along Harrison lines, with curved jambs, and also the rather distinct design of the Harrison expression appears to have been emulated (in wood??).
Are there any more photos coming???
Hector
Yea it looks like so, but lets hope it all turns out well. I certainly have not seen any advertisement on the Klais website saying they are providing a new organ for Leeds.
-
Any more news on Leeds?
-
If I'd won the lottery I would do the following:
1. Donate to the British Heart Foundation
2. Donate to the Liverpool Cathedral organ fund
3. Get St Georgy Hall done too!
4. Set up a new and hopefully better British Organbuilding Institute that is geared to encourage younger members to join and partake in events FREE OF CHARGE until the age of 30. I would also encourage those firms who qualify as members to support and make available various courses in carpentry, electrician work and marketing and any other aspect of the Organbuilding trade. The institute would also allow funding for trainee organ builders to be paid a decent wage (I wasn't) and extra funding to travel in order to experience different cultures in organbuilding - have many of us has stepped inside a Cavaillé-Coll? As a result of this it would secure the future of organbuilding in the British Isles in the way in which we can be equally compared to the rest of Europe and the USA.
5. If I have enough left over I might get myself a pint of Real Ale - www.camra.org.uk for those who are interested!
-
Have you tried this? http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA66843
-
"Dulciana 8' (the slightly stringy model)"
Hmm how big will the stop heads be? I don't think one could fit all that on!.. Only joking, it looks like a good array of colours but I hope the pipework will be off decent scale and not the harshness we sometimes find in modern reeds.
-
-
How many cathedral organs can adequately lead and support a full nave congregation on full Great
Well certainly at St. Chad's in Birmingham it's even possible to lead a full nave congregation of just the positive 8,4 flutes!
-
I welcome the idea of an American organ as it will be a breath of fresh air to the English organ world.
Dupre - Cortege et Litanie (again!)
in The Organ
Posted
Has anyone tried the Ben Van Oosten recording from the Birmingham Town Hall? It's fantastic.