Jonathan Thorne
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Posts posted by Jonathan Thorne
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I was a tuner's assistant at Gloucester 79-81 in the HN&B days. The Swell was particularly tricky to tune. The 4ft Principal is planted on the two outermost soundboards in C and C# sides, with a central soundboard with more Swell ranks between. Opening the case doors on the North & South sides caused the tuning to alter. Changing the position of the East front shutters caused the tuning to alter. The blinds behind the East Swell front were put in (if memory serves) to prevent the Open Flute 4ft going violently out of tune with the shutters closed. Then factor in the pressure drop from the schwimmer regulators... what chance ?
There is no doubt in my mind that the organ speaks with a unique voice - character, if you like. Something which I find appeals to me more and more (character, that is) in preference to anything bland, be it large or small. It still fascinates me that the Gloucester organ so polarizes opinion, 36 years after installation. Proof in itself of character ?
H
I totally share these thoughts. Gloucester is unique and being a tuners assistant myself from time to time (after the Nicholsons rebuild) I did notice that there were pitch variations between departments. It's not an easy organ to tune, also by the fact that the pipes are close to each other as well and of course the huge acoustics don't help either.
Like the Gloucester instrument as an example, organs are imperfect instruments and tuning is a compromise from start to finish. I've yet to hear any pipe organ in equal temperament.....
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I love a good Clarion - maybe you're the same. Maybe you're not.... we shall see.
Even with a bright chorus and a good 8' chorus reed, there's something about the fire and splash that a good Clarion brings, IMHO they're virtually as essential in a 'final and complete' Full Swell as a 16' reed.
Now the point of my topic is that I've noticed a distinct trend to leave these stops out of new schemes. As to reasons, how about some of these:
1. Maybe lots of different designers don't like them (unlikely but possible)
2. They're seen as a luxury
3. Builders don't like them, treble reed pipes being pretty difficult to voice really well.
I think the first large organ scheme in recent times to leave out the Swell Clarion was the (famous/infamous) Gloucester Cathedral rebuild at the hands of HN&B and Ralph Downes. There, Downes had included (presumably for the same musical purpose) a Tierce Cymbal. Does this cover for the lack of a Clarion ? Like *beep* it does! Frankly that mixture is not a lot of good in the swell chorus either, bear in mind that there is no alternative mixture to top the chorus! The really irritating thing about this Swell is that Downes had the option to retain an existing Father Willis/H&H III Mixture and Clarion but he chose not to.
Recently I had a fault here (Holy Trinity Hull) caused by a short between two cotton-covered wires, which resulted in the Great Clarion coming on whenever the Swell to Great was used. Needless to say, with great regret I was forced to cut the wires to the Clarion and managed for several months without it. Now it's back on, I am aware of how much it adds - this is a Great with 16 8 8 4 in chorus reeds. I also have excellent chorus reeds at 8 8 4 currently on the Swell and 16 8 on the Bombarde. Logically, the difference of one little reed rank shouldn't have been that much but it was - particularly in the middle octaves! The splash and fire are back.
Would you specify a Clarion in a new Swell (or Great)? Opinions please?
The answer to the question for me is yes in my opinion! I would find more use for it on the Swell rather than the Great. The reason being that so much French music does need it. In fact the two most recent 'new' organs in Birmingham have included a Clarion on the Swell and I have also come across one on the Nicholson and Lord organ of St. Luke's church Ironbridge.
The Walker at St. Chad's, Birmingham has it's Clarion on the Swell, thus having 16, 8, 8, 4 for the reeds on the Swell in total. The Clarion is made of spotted metal and goes into harmonic trebles around the treble octave. Also around the same place are that the shalots are lined with wax, so to boost up the tone a bit. As it's the only 4ft reed on the organ, naturally it needs to be heard! You can certainly hear it in the bottom octaves on the tutti, so there is not need to have another clarion elsewhere.
I can't actually of many organ's being of 2 manual size that would actually suffer without a clarion, only when the organs' get bigger then it becomes more noticeable.
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Sorry I didn't mean to sound hurtful but I'm just a little concerned about certain people doing certain things. However I'd love an organ in the house. Probably an American organ builder would be best, or J.W.Walker & Sons. In the 80's JWW did a fantastic series on producing home type organ that were affordable. There is one at the Birmingham Conservatoire.
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What fun Mr. Derret is having building a Santa type organ. Lets hope he doesn't do it to another Nicholson and Lord like the one he added a 15th on a clamp to in Ketley near Telford. I tune the poor thing and it's suffering! I'm not amused!
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Bach editions are always a problem. I use the Breitkopf which is ok. I find the Bärenreiter a little awkward to read as the notes appear in almost any stave unlike the Novello edition which is more user friendly. It's always good to cross-check with other editions. I love the facsimiles over the Clavier Ubung and the Orgelbuchlein, which are published by Peters and Bärenreiter respectively.
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Can I recomend my freind Peter Collings who has done a lot of research and has many good examples on his site - www.petercollings.com
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The Preston disc is a very interesting recording. I have a copy of the 1983 DG recording of the Rebuke and Liszt in it's original case and condition. I was lucky it was given to me but what e-bay was charging was a bit much. Good performances and organ in reasonable tune (apart from the fugue in the Rebuke plus the 2ft on the great is a little unbalanced).
However might I mention another good interpretation is the Roger Fisher rendition of the Rebuke in his early EMI disc from Chester Cathedral?
Oh and Keith John has done a good Rebuke on the Priory Label!
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Having had lessons at St. Mary Redcliffe I'd have to say I'd prefer the Cathedral Organ any day. The fine Walker organ is superb has a lot of character. There is a good recording of it made by Regent Records.
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Although I am not yet a member, I would like to say how helpful and encouraging the RCO has been to organists of the younger generation, particularly in Masterclasses.
In my time as a student in Birmingham I attended many of these things and probably my favourite one was the one they held at the Symphony Hall. They hosted a huge recital, where many young people had the opportunity to play a couple of pieces on the Klais organ. It's these sorts of things I like about the College and I hope many more are yet to come, as I believe it is important to get more young people to play what is a wonderful instrument that is the organ.
JT
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I'm not too sure about the tempi in this particular piece (I play the G min Prelude). However I do know that no original source of Buxtehude's organ music services. Therefore it is always good to cross-check with different editions e.g. Barenreiter and Breitkopf and also the Beloti edition which is on two staves.
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Aren't Nicholson’s doing something to the organ at St. Georges?
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This is an interesting point. I was giving a bad lunchtime recital at Lichfield Cathedral on Sunday and I felt that I was so much used to a ‘stepper’ system. This means that an organist can ‘step’ through the generals. The system they have at Lichfield was ok but I would imagine it’s what you are used to. At the Symphony Hall, Birmingham we they have a floppy disc system the (almost) works very well so that one does not need an assistant. The system they have at St. Chad’s Cathedral is ideal – it is a stepper system so that students have their own memory. I think it depends on what organ one is playing and the complexity of the piece. P.s. I have not read the whole of the thread because most of them end up talking about wind pressures – but that’s a personal thing!
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Do you know if they are 'wiper switches'?
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This is a set up, but very well put together!
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Has anyone heard the CD of Hans Otto Jakob playing Vierne at Frankfurt Cathedral? It's full phrase brakes which is not common in Viernes music. And the regestrations are not quite right. It's a good organ though for a Klais.
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Interesting point. I am playing the Intermezzo from Guilmant's & Sonata and his give options in that for a G comapss on certain pedalboards. JT
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What about Elgar Sonata in G or reubke sonata?
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What a fine organ at Buckfast Abbey!
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The Van Oosten recordings are excellent examples of fine and well-researched performances, in a perfect building and organ. There are also good recordings on the Festivo label (www.festivo.nl) played by Christine Kamp, also at Rouen and are available from Allegro music in Birmingham.
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What was the point in this? I'm really cheesed off about pointless things that go on with this discussion board. I'm surprised that the appropriate people have not been deleted from this board.
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"For Vox Humana - I love a good Romantic organ - but I also like a good Classical organ, too. However, you are quite right with your nomination of Hohl Flutes - I do not think that I have ever heard a good one."
From pncd2346987?? There are some fine flutes at Liverpool Cathedral specially the Hohl Flutes!
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Which organ are you talking about? Surly it should be in context. For me it is the Dulciana which is useless, i'd prefer a Gamba for cut down the Dulciana and make good use of it!!
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I remember on my first 'proper' tuning visit, when I was doing the tuning and the person I was with told be to tune at the top - so I did, not knowing any different. However I am better informed now so I never tune at the top, simply because it does affect the regulation of the pipes, particularly if it is an oboe rank for instance. I have on some occasion (more so on Cremona stopped) adjusted the slider at the top if I am finding that the pipe for not find its tuning point, particularly if it has continental style shallots. By doing this I have been very careful not to change the best sound out of the pipe in relations to its neighbours.
Noisy Underactions
in The Organ
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I have a CD from Wells cathedral choir and one can hear the same.