Jonathan Thorne
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Posts posted by Jonathan Thorne
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Oh dear dear dear. John, you know that this isn't the case at all: the then INCUMBENT isisted that he remote console be installed and that there was no getting around that if the work was going to be done at all.
I was also delighted when the electric stuff was uninstalled, which had been carried out in such a manner as to be completely removable without trace - and I DID insist on that.
For those of you not 'in the know', I was the Commercial Manager for the contract, acting for Taylor Woodrow.
DW
This seems to be a very interesting organ. According to NPOR there is a lot of Green pipework but I would be interested in the state of the organ before it was (by the looks of things) rebuilt (again) in 1996. Who tendered for it then? And what's with this second console? However I do have a good account via a CD played by Nicholas Johnson.
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Hi
You probably mis-typed something? Earlier today, the old NPOR site still had a page up giving a link to the new server.
Every Blessing
Tony
Nope even did a google search to make sure but today both websites seem to be ok. Many thanks all. J
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Would anyone have an idea on what has happened to the bios website? It doesn't seem to be working anymore - and of course at a time I was looking for a specification in a hurry!...
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What a coincidence Pater I was just listening to that exact piece when I went on to the Mander website and found your request -spooky…
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When a new soundboard was made for the new Great mixture at Redland Park Church, Bristol in 1990 it was constructed of MDF. This has proved to be extremely stable & trouble-free.
Willis organ? Isn't MDF ok unitll you get water on it?
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When I worked for HNB we made slider soundboards with marine ply tables, a mahogany grid, and a pallet board of birch ply. No upperboards - we were using individual plastic stands instead, one per pipe, which were christened 'pups' - Plastic Upperboard Pipe Stands. They were imported I beleive, but I don't know where from. Slides were made of a plastic material called, if memory serves, Delaron. The wells were made of 3/4 ply, as were all HNB's at this time. Some were installed in Gloucester Cathedral - I made two of them (West Great and one of two small pedal soundboards) myself. Does anybody know if they are still there?
Some years ago I visited Pennels and Sharp's place in Thetford, and they were making soundboards entirely of chipboard, but I don't know where they were installed, or how reliable they were in practice. They were using upperboards with individual pipe seals, which had to left to settle for some time - months I believe - before they could be operated - the seals were that tight.
Regards to all
John
This is interesting. The last time I was in the organ at Gloucester Cathedral was about 2002/3 and I don't think anything really was changed from the soundboards from the Pedal certainly. I'll need to double check. I think in the 1999 overhaul Nicholsons might have added an extra schwimmer for the use of the Swell sub octave coupler (surprising as the job is extremely tight as it is!!). Were 'PUPS' used on the Carrs Lane job?
I'm surprised if P&S are still using chipboard. I'm pretty sure the Walker at St. Chad's doesn't have it (instead marine play and poplar etc). This organ is 16 years old and I've seen an 11 year soundboard from P&S with still the Poplar treatment (what a lovely wood that is).
Weren't the original soundbaords from Blackburn Cathedral of Chipboard on the Walker organ?
Are some organbuilders now going back to using the old fashioned grooving of upperboards and tables?
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I could give you one in Glasgow, now only 11 years old, but trouble after less than 5!
Well touch wood St. Chad's Cathedral organ Birmingham hasn't gone wrong yet and it's 16 years old.....
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May I add my thanks to Adrian and Chris and the Cathedral staff for a lovely day. It was also nice to meet some of the other board members (and we even got a mention at evensong!) I hope this will not be the last meeting where we can all share our passion for the organ.
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It is fascinating to feel the hot air that has been expended on this subject over the forty years that have passed since I was a schoolboy. As a parish church organist since I was fourteen I have played organs with Victorian tracker action, trigger swell pedals, balanced swell pedals, electro pneumatic, direct electric, barker lever etc etc. If done properly, they can all work very well, but it really doesn't matter at all which is used because the people listening can't hear the difference anyway. What matters is the siting of the instrument and the quality of the scaling and the voicing of the pipework, plus competence in winding and making it all work properly. After that, accessibility and ease of maintenance are critical.
A lot on money has been wasted recreating ingenious and marvellous solutions that can now be done much better in other ways. Surely it's as simple as this, isn't it? If the layout permits, use a properly designed mechanical action. If not, use a good electro-pneumatic or direct electric. The dual console arrangements that we seen over the past couple of decades are just a stupid waste of money, aren't they?
Hmmm - well I can see where you are going BUT. One could have a perfectly sighted organ with perfect quality of scaling and voicing, let alone the best materials and competent winding making it all work properly. However there is no point in having a perfectly voiced organ if the action is not adequate or accessible (Brindley and Foster comes to mind). If anything, I think modern organ building is learning and developing ways in which new organs can be more accessible from the inside. I've come across so many Victorian organs where it is clearly evident that they had failed to think of the maintenance side of it (how long have they been making pipe organs?).
However, in reality none of these factors actually works in harmony in the way we would like. The pipe organ is an imperfect instrument that (in this country) is dictated mainly by cost. Most modern organs in this country are now built with mechanical actions like those Victorian ones were made by hundred's of years ago, but there must be a compromise on all the above factors in order to get the 'perfect' organ. I think it does matter to get a good action and one that will last for hundreds of years (and there are many examples of those). I do also think it does make a difference on the people who are listening and I don't think money has been wasted in developing new ideas where advantageous.
I hope that makes sense!
p.s. are Van den Heuvel Orgelbouw still using Barker Machines in their new organs?
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How useful are balanciers?
Presumably they reduce the weight of touch, but do they compromise repetition speed, or anything else for that matter?
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They are indeed very useful. I’ve added a link (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5286413&l=02b27&id=892180584) of a picture of the ones from the Great of the Walker organ at St. Chad’s Cathedral, Birmingham. They feature on every manual division for a least two octaves from the bottom. The results are fantastic and they hardly take up any room. The repetition is fine and there is still that feeling of a solid ‘pluck’. On this organ there is no need for electrical coupling and all coupling is natural save actually ‘seeing’ the keys going down. Rieger also use balanciers, but they use the square-drop version but still they work very well.
Talking about Symphony Hall as I saw earlier, when I served my time there, as Scholar I wasn’t really convinced by the need for mechanical action for that organ. Recitalists always use the electric console, but when playing the mechanical one it always felt soggy even when coupled or un-coupled. The dual action can also be another factor for things to go wrong and just it just interferes rather than anything.
Happy playing!...
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Dear people.
I've just discovered am exciting release from the Signum label of Jeremy Filsell playing the complete Symphonies of L Vierne (http://www.jeremyfilsell.com/index.php?page=vierne-symphonies). But when I did some more research I discovered that it had been replicated by Brilliant Classics (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vierne-Organ-Symphonies-Complete/dp/B000WC387I/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233279299&sr=8-3). Surely, I thought - that this is the same recording - after all Vierne only wrote 6 and a half Symphony's (six only survive) and I was wondering how Brilliant Classics managed to get hold of the release. Any ideas?
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CT - Regarding your comment on the organ's ability to deal with French repertoire, I can recommend the latest CD by Ben van Oosten, Volume 10 of the complete Dupre, which he has chosen to play at Birmingham. At times I have to listen very carefully to convince myself it's not a French organ.
Yes this is another top of the tree release from MD&G and I'm glad Vol. 10 has come from the Birmingham Town Hall, as it's put this organ on the map a bit. I think that although it sounds convincing for the French Romantic side it does unmistakably sound British, simply because of it's good scalings and fantastic internal layout, thus achieving a good solid sound. I think this is an instrument at least Birmingham ought to be proud of….
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I’m too am baffled. There seems no certainty of where this is leading. What’s the point in starting something like this? It’s got nothing to do with organs whatsoever.
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I have been interested to read people views about cone and slide tune pipes. I’ve come across both but still haven’t found the most ideal way, since every organ is very different and in unique environment. Can it be generalised that one is better than the other?
I can only speak on my own findings, but I’ve found so many damaged pipes that have been cone tuned (badly) certainly with an organ with a mixed amount of slide and cone tuning it’s always the coned pipes that needed tuning. I’ve found many stable organs that have been slide tuned, that haven’t been tuned for more than ten years (just like cone tuning) if the slide is gripping the pipe well, then yes it won’t damage or score the pipe and they are easier to tune.
One recent concert hall organ I tuned, had cone tuned trebles for the manual reeds. For example, the Swell Clarion 4ft had three pipes per note two at 4 and the third at 2 pitch. They were already beginning to signs of battering simply because the builder didn’t provide slides which would have made life a lot easier – the organ is only eight years old.
My guess really is that we can’t really generalise what’s best as it depends on the building and the organ. I’ve played many organs on the continent where cone tuning seems to be company policy with no reason, but still as good as good old slide tuning.
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I was interested to read various comments about Open Wood v Open Metal. My guess is it depends on what sort of organ it and how big the building it is in. Personally I’m not convinced Open Metals are the only ingredient to gain the best clarity. I think the clarity comes when upper work is mixed with the 16ft bass e.g. 8, 4 and Mixture. I have found some bad examples of Open Metals (sometimes Violone) to have a rather grating, or rather ‘barking’ tone, certainly on the beginning of speech and they do anything but give clarity. Open Woods are good - Cavaillé-Coll used the equivalent all the time, but I fundamentally (pun) believe clarity comes from higher registers and when combined together. Happy peddling!......
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Dear People. Can I say very much thanks for your input in the past few hours! The Church website and description has re-jogged my memory and it is the church I remember. In fact the exterior reminds me of St. Albans the Martyr Conybere Street Birmingham – another great building by John Loughborough Pearson (1817 - 1897), which houses a Rushworth and Dreaper organ. The red brick and the white cement look similar at both churches. I wonder how accessible the organ is…..
J
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Dear people. I’m trying locate a church in Greater London not far from St. Andrews Holborn. I only visited the church once back in 2000, but can’t remember what the name of it was. It was Catholic and the organ was a Compton on the west gallery. The interior was painted (e.g. a massive painting on the ceiling towards the east of end of the church). The acoustics were fantastic and it was a very lofty building. Sorry it’s not enough information but do you any of you people have any ideas where this church is located or where I could find more info?
Many thanks
JT
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Going back to the first entry of this thread, I do know that Nicholson and Lord of Walsall used to include an 8ft Gamba on their Great Organs. These certainly added somthing both to the Open and the Flute at 8ft Pitch and they went down to bottom C as well. I have tued a couple of N&L organs, which has both a Gamba and a Dulciana on the Great - an interesting discovery.
JT
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As a matter of interest, I assume the 2' pipes are flues, but what about the 4' pipes at the top end?
R
Oh the 4fts are also flue pipes not a reed. So three pipes per note all cone tuned..
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At the Symphony Hall in Birmingham the Swell Clarion has three pipes for each of the top notes - two at 4ft pitch and one at 2ft. This certainly maintains the intensity and the shrill of the reeds. I know of another organ where the 4ft Clarion does have a single large scale flue pipe at the top but the treble end have their shallots lined with wax – another way to get power, not forgetting the harmonic trebles.
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I played and tuned a bit of the Manchester Town Hall organ two years ago. The organ is in a sorry state and is not used or respected enough. When I played it, there were notes off here and there and it had not been tuned for a long time. The problem I see here is that the Hall is used so much for other things and the organ doesn’t get a look in, which I think it a shame, as we brits are so good at not recognising culture and history when it comes to organs and let a lone one of this nature. We certainly would not expect to find this happening on the continent however and maybe the organ would have been restored before I finished writing this post.
As mentioned in other posts Jardines have done their best in keeping the organ going within the boundaries of the Hall and it’s probably credit to them that the organ is going at all.
It is a very interesting instrument though and the big Tuba sits right at the top of the organ in front of the Lewis soundboard. The tuba is as English as you can get and just shows how versatile Cavaille-Coll was. All departments are very well spaced inside where the sound can get out. The action though is a problem as it is so buried so any problems then everything has to be taken out (rather like the old Brindley and Foster soundboards). The pipework is of huge scale particularly the Great and it was a joy to have a look around. Anyone interested in seeing some pictures - please contact me.
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Never heard this in Manchester but suspect a tampering, but those in the Sacre Coeur (which are laid down on the top of the case) 16 8 4 are glorious. When you walk up through the organ and reach the roof of the instrument in front of the twin Solo boxes, you think you are seeing the guns of the Bismarck. All sounding nothing like the honks/mega bassoon types in the UK with very little brilliance of harmonics. These add panache to the Tutti but are also solo voices too. The S C instrument (if memory serves me right) had a twin in Sheffield Albert Hall (contract 1873) and had the same stops. I believe that S C got theirs because of Sheffield requiring such sounds. Can anyone back me up?
Best wishes,
Nigel
Yes all is correct. I have a huge German Book about it - i'll dig it out.
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I've been trying to locate the publisher of the interesting sonatas by J N Lemmens, but have not found a publisher. Are they published by Barenreiter or Forberg? Any help would be gratefully received. JT
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I don't know if it would be of any interest but there is a really good recording of Ravanello's Theme and Variations in b minor played by Keith John at Gloucester Cathedral.
Practice Costs - A Question
in General discussion
Posted
I fully agree.
I have three examples.
1. Huge church in what was a sought after area. Contains an early 1900's 2 Man Binns organ, which has been maintained well and not messed about with. I approached the vicar last year with a view of practising the organ. He said fine. He had a key cut for me and I play for regular services, weddings and funerals. Furthermore the Vicar wants the organ to be used more and for more musicians to use the available space. Because I don't play there every Sunday it's amazing to hear how much they like to hear the organ.
2. Rather the same as number one but with a 1898 J W Walker organ - also untouched.
3. Hope I'm not being greedy but I helped to restore an August Gern organ 4 years ago a asked if they would mind me playing the organ in exchange for a service. Fine they said we'll ask the Bishop
As a tuner and player it's of great advantage if organs are played regularly and it's even been commented in one tuning book from one of the above organs. So I agree that it will save money in the long run and improve reliability.