Barry Jordan

I'm afraid that it seems to work the other way around nowadays in the field of musical performance; beware of doing anything which is not compulsory. As Jerome K. Jerome knew, that is a very German way of seeing things (everything not forbidden is compulsory, everything not compulsory is forbidden)..... I personally tend not to change manuals during Bach fugues. It doesn't seem to make much difference whether he did or not, really; there might have been a number of different reasons for having a number of different manuals other than hopping around between them, one of them simply being to have the choice of playing big fugues on any one of them. The Dorian doesn't prove a point one way or the other; it is clearly conceived as a dialogue which is unusual or even unique amongst the works. And the episodes on the subsidiary manual are not pedalless. The concerti (not just the d minor, the a minor also has directions for manual changes, as does the first - but not the last - movement of the G Major), and, if memory serves, also the whole of the C - where more than just manual changes, or possibly more manuals than just two - seem to be necessary. I think that the term "organo pleno" leads to some muddled thinking, because it is so unclear what it actually means. I often wonder if it doesn't simply indicate that some sort of pleno on one manual is all that is needed for the piece, as it often simply turns up as an alternative to "a 2. manuale" or whatever. There has been a lot of talk about the b minor, a piece which has the potential to sound anything from tragic to stormy but which is often ruined from the first note on by mixtures which don't support the playing of single notes as high as this one........breaking to 16' pitch already by then and having no 16' principal to support them. It is surprising that noone has drawn the analogy to Bach's orchestral writing until now. When not using concerto-like forms, there tend to be no real changes in instrumental colour within single movements, at any rate none that would be similar to a manual change. Multi-sectional works are a different case; that might even apply to the E-flat, where I think you could make a very good case for using three manuals. I am normally a fairly conservative Bach player but I no longer attempt to play pieces like the passacaglia on one plenum. I once heard my teacher Martin Haselböck do it in the Augustinerkirche in Vienna and it was spectacular, but dogmatic, or even perhaps very cowardly - or brave? I wonder. It certainly makes the piece much more difficult, not only musically but technically too, because there are a number of places which simply work much more easily on two manuals. The same applies to other sectional pieces like the D major (even the fugue, perhaps, which is rather concerto-like and not "Proper" polyphony at all), TAF etc. Somebody mentioned "big 4 manual" instruments but I am not aware of any 4 deckers in Bach's environment. The north German instruments had a different purpose and the music of the Hanseatic composers IS plainly conceived for a kaleidoscopic performance. Playing these pieces on one manual is plainly wrong! Incidentally, Bach never went to Kiel (where I used to live), which was a much less glamourous city than Lübeck or Hamburg; his contact to Italian music arose through the Weimarer Prince, who studied in Amsterdam, then the absolute centre of music printing and trading in Europe. Cheers Barry

I know this, you know this, but does Phillip Klais know it? Apparently not!

Oh, I understand......... this is made-up Latin (as so much of it is, I think); the German word for a cathedral chapter is "Kapitel", members of it are "Kapitulare", alles klar? Barry

"Capitular" is a canon. So you have the archbishop's tuba and the canon's tuba. Which is fatter? The archdiocese of Köln has no problems paying for anything at all. A good day to you all Barry

Is this always a very good idea? Who wants to hear all those notes?

The point I'm trying to make, obviously with limited success, is simply that it is very difficult to pin-point a particular type of instrument as being ideal for the music of Bach. Slowly we seem to be realising that the typical neo-baroque instrument, with an absence of string tone, underpowered fundamentals and very high pitched mixtures is NOT what Bach was looking for - too late to stop a lot of instruments with which Bach could probably have identified pretty well being, in effect, "baroqeicised" - including Naumburg, Waltershausen and Altenburg, all having now been returned to something like their original state. Whether you can play Bach on an Edwardian organ would be rather like asking whether you can cut grass with your fridge; that is simply not what it is for. If it works, it's an unexpected bonus. Of course you CAN do it, the music is simply good enough for it to survive. You can also maje elephnats stand on little painted tubs. It can sound spectacularly good, like Daniel Roth's st. Sulpice Bach; but there is a level on which, narrow-mindedly contemplated, the thing is all wrong. It is, as someone further up said, a matter of comfort zones. My question (and answer) whether ALL of Bach'smusic requires the same sort of instrument was neither idle nor meant to be (merely) provocative, because it seems clear that a piece like the multisectional E major Toccata (or is it in C?) requires a different sort of instrument from the CÜ III or any of the big non-sectional works, so that to talk of "a" Bach organ is probably impossible anyway. The organs which he encountered in Lüneburg or Hamburg were very different from the Stertzing/Wender types that he knew at home. If the "Dorian" was really written for Kassel, that would have been different again. All for the nonce Cheers Barry

Well, we just have a big "Bach's organs" topic on Plenum. We know relatively well the organs Bach played, at least on paper, some even do still exist today. Here is one Bach approved after inspection and trial. Krebs too used it: http://www.orgelsite.nl/kerken15/altenburg.htm It has been restored 1973 by Eule Orgelbau. The stops with an asterisk plus the HPTW's Mixtur are borrowed on the Pedal. Pierre <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, it's by Trost, as I said. By the way, Waltershausen is even more spectacular. It too has masses of transmissions to the pedal.

It is worth pointing out again that Bach wasn't a very fashionable composer in England (or indeed anywhere else) at the time time Willis was doing his thing.... as late as Beecham, whose opinion of JSB's music is well-known (Far too much counterpoint! And protestant counterpoint at that!), commenting that one couldn't play Bach on a particular organ Bach might well have drawn the question, "Why would you want to do a thing like that?" It is true that a lot of English organs give you the choice of "tubby Bach or skinny Bach", as I think Gordon Reynolds put it. A lot of German organs give you the choice of scratchy, dull Bach or shrill, scrapy Bach, for that matter. Just, it doesn't really do as a criterium for judging an organ. You can't really play Bach on a Cavaillé-Coll or a Walcker or a Sauer or a Silbermann or a Clicquot or even a Schnitger either. This leaves two major questions unanswered: 1) what can you play Bach on then? and 2) do all of Bach's works need the same type of organ? To which two partial answers might be 1) something like a Hildebrandt or Trost and 2) No. Cheers Barry

Friedrich, you pop up everywhere. But so do I, I suppose. I played a number of times in the Stadtkirche St. Veit in Wunsiedel. It is a Steinmeyer, perhaps not strictly "pre-war", because definitely enlarged and rebuilt since then (although also by Steinmeyer), but substantially so. It is a fine organ, needs a bit of care though. Cheers Barry

This applies to a lot of German organs too. The reason is not actually all that arcane.... these organs are cone-tuned. That means, amongst other things, that tuning ruins the pipes. So the tuner hardly ever comes around, perhaps every three years in a lot of places. So the organist tunes the reeds; but that only works if you have a regular one who is a professional and knows what he's doing. That is not universally the case. So why provide stops that can hardly ever be used? Cheers B

======================== The problem faced by many organ-builders, (as well as boat-builders incidentally) is the gap between signing a contract and actually getting paid for it. In the building industry generally, there is a method of payment in stages, where each landmark (subject to penalties for lateness) is rewarded by a part-pot of cash. I don't know whether this applies to organ-building, but if not, it ought to do!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Normal here is: one quarter when signing the contract, one quarter when work begins in the shop, one quarter when the stuff is delivered, one quarter when the organ is approved and signed off. B

A very wise comment, and in fact just what I was trying to get at..... it would be just about possible to advance the hypothesis that music that can't stand up to it is not very good music, meaning that tone quality is more crucial than notes. Some may ask where that leaves Messiaen. But Almut Rössler played it all on her creaky old Beckerath in Düsseldorf, and M. was delighted - or she says he was, to echo another current thread. According to her, as long as the organ got loud enough and soft enough, the actual colours didn't matter. True? Who knows.

I know it. Caspar Glatter-Götz's work on it did it a world of good - anyone got any work for him, incidentally? Sure, most German organs since the 70's will do a good job of Bach (I know Rieger is actually an Austrian firm) . But if one subscribes to the idea that a real "Bach" organ has a chorus more in the thuringian tradition of builders like Stertzing, Trost or Hildebrandt, then the clangy, overbright tone of these organs, and the badly blending pedal reeds, which have far too little fundamental, are far from ideal for the music of JSB. "Nichts für Ungut"........ Barry

I have it. And I would not dream of saying that Liszt's music was not German; he himself termed his collection of Weimar groupies at the time he wrote his organ works the "New german School". I also agree that the playing is excellent. But it still sounds much more "wrong" than it would on an English organ. It is another question altogether whether that is important or not. Do you like hearing Scarlatti on the piano? (I didn't say Bach, because someone is then going to bring up Glenn Gould...) most people, or at any rate many people, would probably say , yes, if I'm honest, I'd rather hear it on the piano than on the harpsichord..... so that's an easy one. How about rachmaninov on the harpsichord? Mozart on the Mbira, Tschaikovsky on the Sheng? "Inappropriate" music on any instrument is possible if the instrument has adequate compass, can play enough notes etc. It can sound terrific, interesting, blisteringly good; I have heard the "Rite of Spring" on two guitars and it was very interesting, if not quite loud enough. Very .... transparent. There are boundaries, but where are they? Even that is a matter of taste. The English organ is the voice of compromise; its reeds are a good deal more prominent than German ones, but less dominant than the French ones. Even the HW trumpet of a Sauer organ is likely to be less loud than the 8' principal; other manuals sport at the most a clarinet or an oboe. Ladegast's reeds are no more prominent. So a tutti that is driven by the reed chorus is, in a certain sense, "inappropriate" for this music. I am sure Liszt wouldn't have minded a bit, but it isn't what he heard in Merseburg. Of course, I am aware that the "English organ" is not a standardised beast; a Puget is not a Cavaille-Coll either. I spent my most formative years as an organist at two instruments: a four manual Hill and a 3 manual Beckerath. I loved both, but I miss the Hill more. Cheers! Barry

I recently read a sentence (in German) which seemed adequately to sum up this issue; a near enough translation would read ""Well-meant" is not satisfactory as a qualitative assessment". B

And I live in Rieger-land, where they have half a monopoly on big organs (Klais has the other half)....and I have never encountered a Rieger that was REALLY good for Bach! Especially one of 4 manuals, which is trying to be an eclectic instrument, otherwise what would you really need the fourth one for? No, Bach organs are by other builders, sorry!

I believe, however, that "the traditional British organ" (although an instrument like St. Ignatius certainly isn't one of those) does a better job of French organ music than a German romantic organ does, and a better job of German romantic organ music than a French organ does..... It comes down to the question of whether "specialised" or "versatile" is more important to the commissioner of a project. But in practice, no-one commissioning a large new instrument can really afford an organ that only does one thing well or at all. This raises several other issues which I now have neither the time nor the energy to raise. No doubt others will do it for me. Incidentally, David Titterington told me that the Duke's Hall organ was not actually very useful for French symphonic music, since it only has two manuals. He also told me that it malfunctions regularly...... I personally believe that you English underrate your best builders tragically. The German shop is more or less closed; the Bund deutscher Orgelbauer is very powerful. Other mainland European builders have a slight chance, but only a slight one; as far as I know, there is one vd Heuvel organ in Germany and a couple by Verschueren; there are a few instruments by firms like Haerpfer and notably Kern (Frauenkirche Dresden, to take the most obvious example) from France, and quite a lot by Swiss firms. Patrice Collon has done a few organs. There is as far as I know only one English organ actually built for a church in Germany (Collins in Bayreuth). Relocated instruments don't count..... I wish the St. Ignatius organ were in this country. Actually, I wish it were mine. The only really important "import" from outside mainland Europe is the Fisk in Lausanne. Not EU, of course. And definitely not a specialised instrument! Cheers B

Yes sorry, I do. My English is getting wonky. It's aufgebänkt in German. Well, Cromornes are lovely too. Let's have both, shall we? They aren't very useful for Howells or even Reger, but then clarinets aren't much use for Marchand either.

Are there ANY Werkprinzip organs which stay in tune when the heating is on? Never heard any myself, and they're two a penny here. There was a time, however, when an organ HAD to be WP in order to be respectable, so citing the RFH isn't really very helpful, it's a totally different kettle of fish! Don't knock Peter Collins too hard, he was a voice in the English wilderness at one time and did things that no-one else at the time was really thinking of! Time has passed him by, which is something that can be said of most European builders at that time too - the big firms (Rieger, Klais, Marcussen) have been able to reinvent themselves, the others (Ott, Kleucker) have gone the way of all flesh. The organs are there, often they don't work very well, they sound ghastly - and they have problems with the heating. Incidentally, organs are voiced in empty rooms. Quite a lot of them don't sound very good when the hall is full, especially if its pretty lousy anyway. Not a lot that can be done about it!

Do you know, there really are a few of these? Schuke made one for the tiny Glienecke-Kapelle, where they desperately wanted one of those sticking-out-in -the-front thingies. But the building is so small that it would have reached practically to the altar. So they made it a Regal (more or less) and called it Fanfaro. Sounds like the Intro-music to some Walt Disney cartoon. They repeated the experiment in Spandau, which is a bit of a pity, as the organ is otherwise quite nice. http://www.schuke.com/imglib/Spandau%20sch...lch%2072dpi.jpg Hope that works, never tried this before.

Well, not quite, especially if you are thinking of playing early French music on them, and if not, why have them? Although I am as a foreigner not sure that early French is really a staple of the diet of English cathedrals.....if the cornet is to be banked, as it should be, then there will not be room for it in the PdD case; and part of the point of a big cromorne is getting it nice and close to the people who are listening to it. This is a big sound, historically at any rate..... I think it is a pity to underrate the good British clarinet, I can't understand why anyone would want to put a cromorne or Krummhorn or Henry-Crunhorn on an English cathedral organ instead of one..... which is not me trying to be funny or cantankerous or anything else, it's just a fact! Cheers B

All those early organs, especially in East Friesland, show that a chorus of 8,4,Quint, 2 really is already "organo pleno" - and much more suitable for polyphony than breaking mixtures. Then it really is important that the 2' be of principal scale AND tone, ie not ruined by emasculation through excessive cut-up or reduction of wind-flow, whether this is achieved at the flue or the foot. The same is true for the quint; if it is to blend properly, it needs to be a principal; I personally like the somewhat reedy quality of a strong Quint providing that the 4' has enough harmonic development to carry it properly; others may not. But the hermaphrodite "Nasat" as it is often called here doesn't cut the mustard; although softer, it is often more intrusive because it does not take its place in the harmonic development of the chorus, especially if it is made as a Rohrflöte, common enough over here. The issue of 8' and 4' principals being made to fluty is becoming quite serious in Europe. The new Rieger organ in Essen cathedral is a warning to all in this respect! Cheers B

Well well, this one was very nearly in English. But what a perfectly ghastly specification. I'd run a mile from that one, I'm afraid. B

I learned a lot from the great man in the course of little more than a week. In that short time he became a major influence on my musical development. His devotion to modern music has been touched on here, so I thought I might be allowed to relate a little story he told me: he had prepared with a great deal of care Maxwell Davies' Fantasy "O magnum mysterium", which he called "O maximum hysterium". He said he'd practised it for more than a year until he was sure he could play all of the inthinkable notated rhythms. Shortly before the first performance "Max" came to listen to it. His comment: "Well, yes - but MUCH freer!" He taught me to lose my stage-fright. That meant lying down on the floor of Cape Town Cathedral shortly before a competition, while the audience was taking it's place - but it was worth it. Barry

The next point being, of course, that the more stops you have, the less individual any of them tend to be. Colour has to be got by mixing them up together, so you need 20 stops to play a trio sonata...... organs over 60 stops are a waste (speaking as one who has 93 stops in the workshop at present). Like the drawbars on a gigantic analog Hammond. Quite apart from the nightmare of making it all actually work..... Happy new Year! Barry