nfortin
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Posts posted by nfortin
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abomination.....
ie. horrible, unspeakable, unnatural, don't even want to think about...
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Sorry, IMHO just an abomination.
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I've played for several evensongs at Exeter in the last year or so, and as an occasional visitor would not list it amongst my favourite instruments. My main problem is that its all but impossible to judge the balence of the departments from the console. For my taste "full swell" is far too quiet, although again this may be affected by the console position. Having said that, if you try quiet accompaniment on swell strings & 8' flute for example its more or less inaudible in the quire.
I accompanied quite a small choir (conducted by Barry Rose) recently and was asked to couple through onto the choir even in the psalms because the swell couldn't be heard.
I would agree that the console is very comfortable, although the one going for scrap up the road remains my favourite. I would however suggest that its getting a bit shabby now.
One other gripe, clearly not affecting the tonal quality, is that the CCTV system is just dreadful. Its like watching the conductor through a snowstorm. Surely this could be sorted out at minimal cost.
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To get back to the original question, there are some excellent single Great reeds out there under the name 'Posaune'. Excuse my ignorance, but what is the technical or theoretical difference between a Posaune and a Trumpet?
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Dear Neil,
Ignoring your enthusiasms above, (which you are entitled to express being a proud purchaser!) I would concede that you have a rather unusual situation at Charlton Kings. I know you have a decent choir (for which a range of flexible colours and a 32' are a great help) and an extremely confined space to put any kind of organ - if ever there was a building with nowhere to put pipes St.Mary's C.K.'s is it - which probably explains why there has been a succession of electronic instruments since (I think) the 60's when the former (restricted) pipe organ went to Dean Close School.
If I remember correctly, the first electronic at CK was a Compton. Am I right in thinking that your new organ is the third, however?
I hope you don't think me rude to prolong this. Sorry.......!
If, of course, you had the space to put one in, your £30k would have got you a quite substantial second-hand pipe organ. You could have re-homed something really worthwhile. My hackles rise most when pipes go and electronics come in - the classic case IMHO being Pershore Abbey which I have mentioned once before on this site. A three-manual (perfectly rebuildable) J.W.Walker of the 1950's was ditched in favour of a quasi-French Bradford Computing Organ designed by (the) John Norman.
Not enthusiams - honest opinions, but on the whole that's an accurate summary of our situation and recent history at CK. The last pipe organ was removed in 1965, it was a 3-manual Hill rather lacking in upperwork. As you have said, it survives, much altered by Percy Daniels, in the chapel of Dean Close school.
The organ that we have just replaced dated in parts from 1965 and was, as you correctly stated, built by Comptons. The sound generation units (but not the amplification and speaker systems) were upgraded by Makin in 1985. I'd rather not comment on the tonal quality of the resulting instrument.
I agree entirely about Pershore Abbey where an act of cultural vandalism occurred.
I feel confident that we have acted as good stewards in spending our £30K as we have, although if the 3 manual H&H had appeared on ebay 6-months sooner...
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Its not all about being loud. On our new organ we have:
- a selection of beautiful and characterful flutes of exquisite quality
- a lovely oboe on the swell equally suited to soft solo work and as a soft chorus reed for the psalms etc.
- a beautiful clarinet on the choir
- a gentle 32' contra bourdon that people can FEEL in the nave
- a cornet separee with lovely individual ranks offering a range of wonderful characters
- a substantial solo reed
- spent a total (including VAT and installation) of c £30K.
I have found that my improvisation (never a strong point) has improved as I respond to the wonderful range of really ravishing sounds that are available. This toaster's the best thing since sliced bread!
Get real, talk honestly. There is no cost argument. A quality digital like this wins hands down if cost is the only consideration. When it comes to musical and artistic arguments the best pipe organs are still streets ahead - but the best digitals are much better than many old squeezeboxes in parish churches.
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Where I would disagree with you is in the inherent musicality of any 'reproduction' organ-substitute versus any pipe organ. I confidently predict that however wonderful you new job sounds now, you will eventually tire of it. There are stops on any half-decent pipe organ (and yes, even at Upton) where this is not the case.
Glad you agree about the qualities of the Upton instrument
As you know I am lucky enough to get regular opportunities to play on the very best pipe organs throughout the south-west and would of course agree that a good pipe organ is always preferable. My point is that, to me, some bad pipe organs are not preferable. You may be right about tiring of the overall sound, but there are certainly individual stops on the Wyvern that I cannot imagine tiring of. The thing that distinguishes the flute stops for example is that they are way better than one would expect to hear on most parish church organs.
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Well if you've got the money and you've got the space why not indulge yourself.
My church had a new custom built Wyvern-Phoenix organ installed in February this year and I must say that in the body of the church the sound is just fantastic. Arguably we now have the finest recital instrument in Cheltenham.
By comparison, last night I had the misfortune to accompany Stainer's "Crucifixion" on the 3-m pipe organ in Upton-upon-Severn parish church. What a lousey heap of an instrument (sorry Paul, perhaps you disagree). I know which I prefer both to listen to and play.
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"Angel voices ever singing" sums everthing up for me as a church musician, with "When in our music God is glorified" not far behind.
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Your first requirement is simply to specify dynamic markings as for any other instrument. This may in itself be adequate as the player will interpret these based upon his knowledge of the instrument and the size and strength of the choir.
Bear in mind that it is unwise to be too specific as stops of the same name do not necessarily sound the same on different instruments and hence the player will always take these as an indication of what is wanted rather than an absolute truth.
If there are any melodic passages that you wish to be solo-ed out this needs to be indicated, preferably with an indication of the tone colour you have in mind - such as solo flute, soft reed, trumpet or whatever. Also if there are particular sounds you have in mind, like organ string tone, "full swell" or whatever, these can be indicated.
If your not sure what the classification of organ sound are then your best bet is to find a local church with a friendly organist who is happy to give you a demo and talk-through. Perhaps if you indicate where you are based someone will volunteer....
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This is interesting - I wonder if Nicholsons were able to effect any improvements on the action when they re-commissioned this division - though I confess that I cannot see how this would have been possible. Certainly when I played it, I was not aware of any particular delay - even when coupling it to the GO in order to compensate for the only serious omission on the chancel organ (the lack of a GO 16p reed - something I dislike on large organs, particularly when there is a 32p reed present).
Well of course there was a 16' reed on the great when I first played it. The great reeds were tromba's 16 + 8. The present (or perhaps now past) posaune and clarion date from the Woods-Wordsworth rebuild c1976.
The delay on the solo was not too noticable unless playing antiphonally for example, ie. with solo organ alone not accompanied by anything nearer. Certainly if you stood (or sat) in the crossing to listen to the organ all sections spoke together.
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When I used to play regularly at the cathedral we don't mention (for any newcomers, just off the M5 between Gloucester and Birmingham) playing on the solo organ (located in the south transept, console in the north quire aisle) certainly took some getting used to. I remember, at first, having a tendency to get slower through waiting to hear the sounds.
You have to be bloody minded about it and just keep playing ignoring the evidence of your ears. Not easy to do. In some ways its not unlike the situation that occurs when accompanying a choir at some remove when, again, its very difficult to keep everything together.
It can make life easier to couple through to a nearer division, I used to couple solo-choir sometimes at the place in question, but at the end of the day you still have to ignore the time lag from the distant pipework.
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I'm not anonymous - just unknown. At the time I joined the board there were few, if any contributers using recognisable names, so my first initial and surname was quite trail blazing in this respect.
Neil Fortin
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That just goes to show that there's some cause for confusion. My understanding was that having any electric component makes the whole instrument come into scope, and that having an electric blower would be sufficient even with tracker action.
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I dare say many of you will have seen the email thats doing the rounds, Clearly Harrisons are seriously concerned that new EU legislation will make it illegal to manufacture organ pipes using spotted metal as from this July. What's Mander's perspective on this?
If you haven't seen the link yet, here it is:-
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That is odd - I have never heard of the action malfunctioning on this organ! Are you sure that it was not just the echo?!
Quite sure. The organ went through a very dodgy period, don't ask me exactly when, but sometime after the 69 rebuild and some years ago now. The action needed a lot of attention from HNB to sort it out, it was very unreliable at the time.
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Walton - Coronation Te Deum
Elgar - Polonia
Re. Dream of Gerontius, mentioned earlier in despatches, I was at the organ in Gloucester Cathedral for a performance of this some years ago. The organ plays in the soft chords that bring Part 1 to an end. Unfortunately when I took by hands off the keys the organ kept going... (Yes it was the HNB action, I'm not THAT old)
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pcnd's comments throughout this discussion match my own views and experiences very closely.
I feel very strongly that not only parents, but also a great many teachers, influence children by effectively telling them they will not like things. Children are born with open minds, why can we not allow them to make their own choices and discoveries?
I think it is vital that children in our choirs should be taught to sing using proven Bel Canto techniques designed to stay with them throughout their life, whatever voice part they end up in. To my mind learning these techniques oneself from a respected singing teacher is essential - having been brought up through the cathedral system may be useful but is certainly not essential.
In the state sector, most junior and infant schools are very poor at teaching singing. Their level of expectation is very low. Frequently music is picked (if at all) on the assumption that children can not possibly sing higher that the D a ninth above middle C. I too have assisted on RSCM courses and always ask the children whether they do scales and exercises in their own choir practices. Very few do, and when you start to do a few scales with them many struggle from E upwards. They need the thrill, excitement and pride of unleashing their upper registers, and can also recognise the thrilling nature of many passages of music.
pcnd (I think it was) referred to Stanford in C. Quite recently I have introduced my own choir to Sumsion in G, you should hear how they sing when we come to the Gloria of the Nunc, its a natural reaction to the build up of the music. We've just done Joubert's "O Lorde the maker" in concert, not my favourite piece, but the kids just love singing those repeated high and loud "laud and praises" at the end.
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I'm just back from another evensong in Hereford and I must say that I find the Willis III console (recently refurbished by H&H) one of the most comfortable I've ever come across. It is quite difficult, as an infrequent visitor, to find the couplers that you want (there being a huge number arranged horizontally as rocker tabs above the solo manual), but nevertheless I find that I settle in and am "at home" with this console more quickly than just about any other I can think of. (It must be one of the few places where you play from a broom cupboard and you risk life and limb carrying an executive case-full of music up and down the precarious stair case!)
I would generally agree (apologies to our host) that H&H consoles are a league apart, and, dare I say, the place we don't mention is a case in point.
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Having myself been brought up in an all male choir, and having run an all male choir in my early days as a choir trainer, I shared some of the concerns expressed here about boys leaving en masse etc.. However, having run choirs with mixed treble lines for many years now it has not been my experience that this causes any problem. I have generally found that numerically the balance between boys and girls in the choir is naturally maintained and the notion that a mixed choir in fact turns out to be all girls is simply not true. Of course, if you currently have an all male choir and you change it just out of some form of political correctness you may upset the existing membership - but thats a different line of reasoning.
There are issues that need to be considered and handled with tact and diplomacy (not my strong points!). Especially around the age question - ie. that girls can go on singing treble/soprano for much longer than boys and without clear policies in place to allow for this it could result in Head Choristers' posititions, or similar positions of rank and responsibility, being denied to the boys.
Similarly, the question of whether boys get teased, or even bullied, at school because they're in a church choir is not related to whether its an all male choir. I myself tolerated a great deal of this back in the 1970's (in the context of an all-male choir) and I guess things have got worse rather than better. However, this is not a problem confined to boys. My daughters come in for exactly the same bullying and harassment as a result of their membership of the choir.
The all male choir is now a rarity and, as such, we need to cherish and protect remaining examples. But for most of us in the parishes we need to be inclusive and can not afford to turn away anyone who is willing to make the commitment to sing in our choirs.
Each choir trainer needs to know what sound they are trying to achieve and also should have themself studied voice production to know at least the basic techniques that they need to promote. It has been my experience that if you have these basic starting points you will achieve similar, and good, results whatever the mix of boys and girls in your treble line.
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In my experience, the only time there is a quiet interlude in Anglican weddings is when people are supposed to be singing the hymns. Otherwise, there is no such thing. During the signing of the registers, Aunt Florrie is so busy talking to Cousin Bert, who she hasn't seen since Grandma Maud's funeral, and so on and so forth, that whatever I might be doing at the console is quite irrelevant. .....I hate weddings. With a vengeance.
I have a great deal of sympathy with these comments. The noise level before the service starts is often dreadful, people get up and walk around to talk to each other etc.. (It may not help that there's a pub directly opposite the south porch.)
Couples come for advice which they then completely ignore and go for the most stupid pieces, unsuitable hymns etc., increasingly with the attitude that they're paying so they can do what they like.
In answer to the original question, Yon - Toccatina for flute is one of my stalwarts.
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I think John Bertalot's series of choir training 'hints' has had it's time - I find his approach faintly patronising!!
AJJ
Only faintly! What about nauseatingly smug & self satisfied?
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I'm still very disappointed with it. The whole idea of having a single theme dominate each issue is flawed - if you don't find the chosen theme particularly interesting or exciting the whole issue is a let down.
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Its refreshing to see a great deal of common sense being talked here. The idea that mechanical action is best for every instrument, whatever its layout and size, is plainly wrong - so its a case of "horses for courses" really.
Mechanical actions also tend to impose constraints on how you use the instrument. At Tewkesbury for example, playing with Swell-Great coupled is reasonable, though not light, but you wouldn't want to couple the choir through as well. Whether such constraints should be seen as desirable is perhaps another subject...
Exeter Cathedral Organ
in General discussion
Posted
As you are well aware, I'm not a great fan of the Gloucester organ, nevertheless having swell shutters on both west and east fronts when the organ is on the pulpitum seems to have a lot going for it. Separate swell pedals, as at Gloucester, may be going too far, but being able to select which set of shutters were in operation (similar to Birmingham) would be beneficial.
I'd still rather have a more potent & full blooded swell and rely on discretion, rather than a weak swell with the "advantage" that it can be used flat out without swamping the choir.