nfortin
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Posts posted by nfortin
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Klais put a stop on the pedal division at Bath Abbey known as a "Fart."
There is no stop of that name on the Bath Abbey organ, although I've long contended that Gloucester is nothing but farts and whistles!
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In other words, we are turning "English Cathedral Music" into a theme park and a tourist attraction.
Well that's a bit harsh. My own, admitedly old fashioned, view is that the requirements of a typical anglican cathedral organ are quite different from those of a concert hall - a distinction that seems to be lost on some of our cathedral organists and their advisors. Its a question of establishing what the primary purpose of the instrument is and then making sure that its fit for that purpose.
In most cases its primary purpose is not the accurate realisation of the works of J.S.Bach, Liszt, Vierne, Reger etc., but it is to be able sympathetically to accompany the music of Elgar, Howells, Stanford, Bairstow, Sumsion etc.. A few nice unagressive flutes are handy for the odd bit of accompanied Purcell, although some cathedrals are lucky enough to posses separate chamber instruments for this repertoire.
One test for a typical English cathedral organ would be whether the Elgar sonata can be successfully played on it.
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The "Worcester Sound" was deliberately made more French in character with the alterations suggested by Donald Hunt and implemented during the Woods-Wordsworth rebuild at around 1978. In particular the great reeds, which had previously been 16' & 8' trombas, were replaced with a Posaune 8' and Clarion 4'. The 8' tromba was very fine, perhaps the organ had a more typical Harrison flavour with the trombas still in place.
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Wot, nuffing in' Cambridge ?
I thought about including Cambridge, but thought this would risk starting the argument about where the north/south divide lies. I wouldn't regard Birmingham as being in the north of England so there would be several more worthy instruments that could be listed there - but its not in the south of England either.
Colston Hall's a good shout though.
We have very a worthy 3-manual Rushworth & Dreaper organ in Cheltenham Town Hall. It lacks upper-work but none-the-less produces a very rich and exciting sound and would be hard to better as an instrument for playing the organ parts where called for in the choral and orchestral works of Elgar for example. There's also a fine (but heavy tracker) 3-manual in Kidderminster Town Hall, I can't remember the builder with certainty - possibly Hill?
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It really is so barren down here in the South. One struggles to think of even a single decent instrument, except perhaps:-
Truro, Bath Abbey, Bristol Cathedral, St. Mary Redcliffe, Salisbury, Hereford, Kingston, RFH, Albert Hall, Westminster Abbey, Westminster Cathedral, St. Paul's, Tewkesbury, Chichester, Wincester, Rochester, Oxford (Queens College, New College, Magdalen, Christchurch)..........
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Thankyou for taking the time to give us such an informative post.
I too have a booklet describing the Albi organ and its history, but I'm ashamed to say that my french is not up to the task of deciphering all of its contents! I bought a CD of one of the local organists playing Dacquin etc. when we visited Albi and the recorded sound is just amazing (although the standard of playing is not up to the standard we've come to expect).
Albi is a little off the beaten track, but well worth a visit. The cathedral itself looks austere and unpromising from the outside but is a real revelation once you move inside. The sight of the organ on its gallery astride two vast painted pillars is just stunning.
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I have also been sick and tired of hearing about the Worcester Cathedral organ. Can someone please cut the wind to this topic.
I can see nothing wrong in those people who are interested discussing a topic. Those who are bored with it are under no compunction to read any new entries.
I raised this issue with my close inside contact at Worcester yesterday evening and he simply could not understand Rogers' statement. The contract for an entirely new quire organ has been signed.
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Obviously not - that's from Ireland
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Preferably not yellow, orange or grey.... there is a lack of contrast against the white!
Perhaps we could petition Mr. Mander to see if the creators of the board are able to load a communion wine-colouerd font....
That might offend the non-conformists!
I think italics can also be a bit hard on the eye except for the odd word. Some people have used blue which seems quite readable to me.
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Just a personal request please, but some correspondents are falling into the habit of replying IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.
Can I point out that such replies are extremely hard on the eye and I would suggest are therefore bad mannered.
We may not all agree, but I for one would appreciate it if the use of all upper-case text could be discontinued. I rarely read such replies as its too much like hard work!
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I agree wholeheartedly with what Richard has said. Its so sad that so much destruction goes on. Of course there may be cases where an old organ is really bad, or really beyond repair and then there's the opportunity for a fresh start, but most of what we see is just whim.
The Klais rebuild in Bath Abbey is very fine, but it doesn't accompany services as well as the previous HNB incarnation. This discussion thread has already highlighted again the polarised views of the distinctive tonality of the Gloucester instrument. Other recent discussion trails have noted the difficulty of accompanying at Christchurch Oxford. There have been several contributions bringing into question the success of the rebuild at Christchurch Priory. As fo St. Mary's, Warwick, the instrument is unspeakably foul. This just reinforces a point which I made recently that throwing out an existing instrument and commissioning a replacement is a leap of faith and carries considerable risk.
The organ in Bridlington Priory is often quoted as a nationally important example of Charles Anneessens' work, yet has just been rebuilt with around 17 or 18 new stops. Why?
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Then there's also the danger of the Dean & Chapter agreeing to make expensive changes or additions to an instrument just to suit the whim of the current organist, who then immediately chucks in the job......
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Sorry, here's a question as a bit of an after thought. How on earth do you manage the registration changes in the first two "verses" of Master Tallis without general pistons. I've always found the required changes to the pedal registrations - at times 8' only, then 16', then back to 8', a nightmare without an assistant to change the stops.
Of course with loads of generals, and a sequencer, as Gloucester now has, its a piece of cake.
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I've just completed a week's playing for a visiting choir in Gloucester Cathedral. Regular correspondents will know its not my favourite instrument, but its always a priviledge to play in such a great building and wonderfully atmospheric acoustic.
I included both Master Tallis' Testament and the Siciliano for a High Ceremony during the course of the week. The former probably worked better than the latter. The main problem with these pieces at Gloucester is the lack of variety of soft 8' tone, its all flutes really. For this style of music, and also for accompanying Stanford, Sumsion, Bairstow, etc., the lack of an 8' diapason on the swell is quite telling. This, I would think, is one of the main reasons why the organ can, and does, sound "thin". Personally I'd happily lose the swell Vox Humana if an 8' diapason could fit in its place.
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I've noted on an earlier topic my own admiration of the organ in St. Michael's, Tenbury, which I would suggest as a candidate for your list.
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Oh. Lord, that's bad.
"Wrestling Jacob" remains a prime choce for weddings in my book.
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I still want to know why Canterbury discarded their 32p open wood rank - was it really beyond repair?
But you don't feel the same about the 32' sawn up and removed from Gloucester?
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On the subject of sermons - well I see it from a different angle.
I'd love to be a composer. Honestly, I'd give anything, but the creative spark just isn't there. I'd also love to be a great improviser, but the truth is I'm rubbish at it (and I'm not give to false modesty). So why pretend? The best approach is surely not to foist my poor attempts at composition upon my congregation and to limit my poor improvisations to as brief as possible.
If only a few more clergy could approach sermons with an equally self-critical view point. Most, and I've heard a great many, are too long and just plain booring. Many ramble with no real structure. I don't think we have a duty to listen if the sermon does not grab our attention. If the sermon's good, and of course some are, it will hold our attention and hopefully we may gain from it. But this is not the norm.
A gifted few are good, most are not and need to realise and accept their own limitations.
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Ah, it had to happen eventually, something I can agree with you on Tony. I do hope, as I do, that you take all contra arguments in good spirit and on the basis that fair discussion of opposing views is one of the strengths of this discussion board.
Of course all pianos are different, and I'm sure we all have our preferences. Equally not all violins sound the same, or all flutes, or all tubas, or any other instrument. The whole early music recording industry has grown up on the obvious reality of these differences and hopefuly most of us would agree that our understanding of music of many periods has gained immeasureably as a result.
Whether an authentic sounding "period" organ is a suitable instrument for accompanying the average UK anglican cathedral liturgy is, of course, an entirely different argument.
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Is that really true Richard, or are you just getting more outlandish for the fun of it?
I'll share with you a true experience of mine from a wedding at my church (see how posessive we organists are) last Saturday. We have in the parish a retired priest who in my opinion has become one egg short of a dozen (any other organists familiar with the wonderful Queen "I'm going slightly mad"?), and the aforementioned rev. was taking the service.
The second hymn chosen by the dewy-eyed pair was "Guide me O thou great redeemer", second line somewhat unfortunately "pilgrim through this barren land". So our wonderful loopy priest announced the hymn choosing to read out the first two line of words as above. He then turned to the bride and said, fully audibly over the radio mike of course, "not too barren I hope".
Wonderful. Its thing like this that really make your day.
Incidentally (bear in mind its late and the bottle's been open a while now), that reminds me of when I was a boy in the choir at Tetbury, and we had a musically ignorant curate who we liked to goad, so we altered the music list from "Lo, starled chiefs" by William Crotch, to read "Lo, startled chefs" by Dr. Crottle. Come the announcement of the anthem at evensong there was a long pause. I think it was finally announced as "Lo, Startled Chiefs" by Dr. Crottle, so I suppose that was 2-1 to us.
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Well pcnd5584 and I agree on many subjects but will have to agree to differ about Gloucester. I don't think its a question of timbre regarding the solo reed - its a question of its non-existance.
Many years ago now I sang in the Worcester Cathedral Voluntary Choir when they visited Gloucester to sing evensong one Saturday. Paul Trepte, the choir's director at that time conducted and had picked "God is gone up" as the anthem. Andrew Millington, who had been assistant at Gloucester for some years, played the organ and presumably knew how best to register the opening fanfares. These were memorably dreadful, (no criticism meant of Andrew's playing) you just can't make a good solo reed sound on this organ.
Its my local cathedral, I've heard the organ played by most of the cathedral organists & assistants from John Sanders' time onwards, and I just can't agree that "the building does the rest".
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OK, I follow this line of reasoning but think something could be worth retaining without actually needing to be a masterpiece. But surely anytime a decision is taken to scrap an instrument and replace it this must be seen as a risk. Worcester is indeed a good example - there can be no possible guarantee that the replacement organs will be as good as, or better than, the present instrument. Its a question of trust and hope.
I'm sure most of us at some point in our life will have replaced something, perhaps a car, or a television, even a home, only to realise sometime later that it was a mistake and afterall we prefered the old one.
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Not strictly an organ topic, but am I the only person who wishes correspondents on this discussion board could be more readily identified from their user name?
Its very interesting to know who you're agreeing or disagreeing with, and I do feel that we should all be prepared to put a name to our comments and not hide behind anonymity.
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Tewkesbury is comfortable, but not light, with swell coupled to great. I think its a bit of a red herring worrying if the action is heavy with all manual couplers drawn - how often should one wish to do this if the great and swell are properly developed?
I too like the occasional OTT sound palette available with strings & octave couplers, but on the whole view octave couplers as a bad thing. Its one thing to create additional versatility with octave couplers and "unison off", but quite another to need to use them to boost sound and fill in for otherwise inadequate divisions.
Percy Daniel & Co
in General discussion
Posted
Well I wouldn't wish ill upon anybody and its always sad to hear of firms going to the wall, but I do agree that their work often failed to produce musical results. In this part of the country (I live in Cheltenham) there are a great many organs rebuilt by Daniel's in the 60's and 70's with new mixture stops added. Without exception these stops are unspeakably foul. A church in Cheltenham at which I was a previous organist (St. Mary's, Prestbury) had a very fine, but limited 2-manual Walker organ completely rebuilt and extended by Daniel's in the 90's. When I learned the contract had gone to Daniel's I warned various people of my fears for the results. As it turned out the general workmanship was fine, a very nice drawstop console was built, but the tonal result was quite dreadful. This is now easily the most unpleasant organ in Cheltenham.