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Mander Organs

St Peter's Basilica


Guest stevecbournias

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2m liturgical

 

GREAT

 

OPENDIAPASON8

STOPPEDDIAPASON8

GEMSHORN8

DULCIANA8

PRINCIPAL4

COPPELFLUTE4

FIFTEENTH2

MIXTURE-III-1-1/3

TRUMPET8

 

SWELL

 

BOURDON16

VIOLA8

CELESTE8

CHIMNEYFLUTE8

PRESTANT4

HARMONICSTOPPEDFLUTE4

NAZARD2-2/3

NIGHTHORN2

TIERCE1-3/5

FURNITURE-III-2

CONTRAHAUTBOY16

HARMONICTRUMPET8

HAUTBOY8-EXT

PEDAL

 

MAJORBASS16

BOURDON16-SWELL

PRINCIPAL8

BOURDON8-SWELL

FIFTEENTH4

TROMBONE16-EXT GREAT

HAUTBOY16-SWELL

TRUMPET8-GREAT

 

 

Ummmmm.... I make that thirty speaking stops. :o

 

My apologies, I will be more clear. No duplexing or extension is allowed. The action is to be entirely mechanical. Oh, and no Dulcianas....

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em skinner taught the duplex concept to increase flexibility

 

i have used it to great advantage

 

thus u can use stops from the same section to accompany stops from that section

 

 

As an organist, I would therefore worry about balance. I have never wished to accompany a solo stop on one division with another stop on the same division. If, for example, both stops are on the Swell Organ, it will be impossible to introduce crescendi or diminuendi without likewise affecting the accompaniment.

 

would u level that critique against the willis-mander at st pauls

 

how many diapasons does that organ boast

 

how many principals,trumpets,mixtures

 

But none of these stops are either extended or duplexed from one department to another. Having played this wonderful organ, the independence of the ranks, in practice, affords a far greater degree of flexibilty than the perceived merits of apparently borrowing everything everywhere.

 

You have also failed to allow for the situation of this unique instrument. Since several sections are distributed in various parts of the building, it is necessary to provide separate choruses, with separate ranks of pipes. Duplexing stops on this instrument would be about as useful as purchasing a chocolate teapot. For example, in St. Paul's Cathedral, litlle purpose would be served by duplexing the GO Open Diapason I to the fifth clavier, since the pipes for these sections are approximately fifty to eighty feet apart.

 

r u willing to set a limit on a design for the vatican organ

 

Yes - given the use which is made of the present instrument (which may be ascertained by perusing some of the posts of other contributors to this thread), I would estimate that a similar-sized instrument to that which is actually in situ. In other words, a moderate three-clavier organ, with approximately fifty speaking stops.

 

would u submit ur design for the vatican organ and open it up for critique

 

 

If I thought that there was any point! However, since, apparently if it is not opera (or pasta) the Italians are not interested, I fear that any instrument larger than the existing organ would be poinltless. It would simply gather dust in the transept (or wherever it was sited) and just serve to remind the Italians how many operas they could have seen, or how much pasta they could have eaten, if they had not wasted all those Lire on an enormous organ.

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sorry

u need to go to a so-called boutique builder

i do not feel i am a good stewart if i sell a museum piece to a congreagation instead of a modern pipe organ

 

was nice knowing u tho

hope u find someone to buy ur mechanical action

coz i will have nothing to do with it

it belongs in the museum along with other anachronisms

byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

Interesting - you have just consigned many new instruments in this country to the metaphorical scrap-heap.

 

Clearly you would be surprised to know that there are several such instruments built each year in this country.

 

I also recall that our organ builders have exported at least two rather good instruments to your country. St. Ignatius Loyola, NYC (Mander: four claviers) and Peachtree Road Methodist (also Mander: four claviers). As far as I can remember, they both had mechanical action. As far as I can remember, many of your fellow-countrymen were deeply impressed with them.

 

Speaking as a professional organist of wide experience, I would not wish even to play a hymn on the over-inflated behemoths of which you are a proponent. In my view, it is these instruments which are the dinosaurs.

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dear readers of the nuts and bolts forum

 

i am accustomed to working with organs of generous resources tonally

 

below is a 3 manual liturgical and recital capable organ that would fit usa requirements for so-called ecclectic or american classic purposes

great

partially independently expressive*

doublegeigen16x

 

principal I 8

 

principal II 8*

 

geigen8*

 

fluteoktaviante8*

 

bordun8*

 

violadagamba8*

 

octav I 4

 

octav II 4*

 

koppelflote4*

 

zauberflote4*

 

superoctav I 2

 

superoctav II 2

 

blockflote2

 

sesquialter-ii-2-2/3

 

mixtur-iv-vi-1-1/3

 

kleinemixtur-iv-1*

 

scharf-iv-2/3

 

contrabombarde16*

 

bombardegrande8*

 

clairongrande4*

 

mountedcornet-v-8-tf

 

tremolo

 

16-4-u

 

chimes*

 

harp*

swell

bourdon16

 

viole16x

 

montre8

 

rohrflote8

 

bourdon8X

 

bourdonceleste8tc

 

harmonicflute8

 

harmonicceleste8tc

 

viole8

 

violeceleste8cc

 

aeoline8

 

aeolineceleste8cc

 

kleineerzahler8-ii

 

fluteceleste8-ii

 

prestant4

 

fluteharmonique4

 

cordenuit4

 

violescelestes4-iix

 

aeolinescelestes4-iix

 

kleineerzahlers4-iix

 

flutescelestes4-iix

 

undamaris4-ii

 

nasard2-2/3

 

octavin2

 

spillflote2

 

tierce1-3/5

 

nasard1-1/3x

 

octavin1x

 

petitjeu-iv-1-1/3

 

cymbale-ii-1/3

 

petitbombarde16

 

contrehautbois16x

 

trompette8

 

petitbombarde8x

 

hautbois8

 

coranglais8

 

voixhumaine8

 

clairon4

 

hautboisoctaviante4x

 

cornet-v-selective

 

tremolo

 

chimes-gt

 

harp-gt

 

16-4-u

choral

spitzprincipal8

 

spitzgedeckt8

 

spitzgamba8

 

spitzceleste8

 

fugaragrosso4

 

spitzflote4

 

waldflote2

 

petitfourniture-iii-2

 

cromorne8

 

petittrompette8

 

tremolo

 

harp-gt

 

celesta

 

chimes

 

glockenstern

 

16-4-u

positiv

suavial8

 

quintflote8

 

principal4

 

nason4

 

gemshorn2

 

quintino1-1/3

 

sifflote1

 

terzlein4/5

 

zimbel-iii-2/3

 

dulzian16

 

kopfregal8

 

musette4

 

regal2

 

tremolo

 

16-4-u

fanfare

 

quadraplexed on all manuals and pedal

festivaltrompette16tc-x

 

festivaltrompette8

 

festivaltrompette4x

pedal

doublegeigen32x

 

contrabourdon32x

 

principal16

 

contrabass16

 

openwood16

 

geigen16-gt

 

bourdon16

 

softbourdon16-sw

 

viole16-sw

 

dulciana16

 

mutation10-2/3

 

octave8

 

spitzflote8

 

pommer8

 

bourdon8x

 

softbourdon-sw

 

violes8-sw

 

mutation5-1/3x

 

koralbass4

 

flachflote4

 

softbourdon4-sw

 

koralbassett2x

 

hohlflote2

 

gemspfeife1

 

kornett32-iv

 

mixtur-iv-2-2/3

 

kontrabombarde32x

 

bombarde16-gt

 

posaune16

 

petitbombarde16-sw

 

hautbois16-sw

 

dulzian16-pos

 

posaune8x

 

bombarde8-gt

 

hautbois8-sw

 

cromorne8-ch

 

posaune4x

 

bombarde4-gt

 

schalmey4

 

zink2

 

tremolo

 

10-2/3

 

8

 

u

 

chimes-gt

 

You are welcome to this - I would have little use for it.

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk
2m liturgical

 

GREAT

 

OPENDIAPASON8

STOPPEDDIAPASON8

GEMSHORN8

DULCIANA8

PRINCIPAL4

COPPELFLUTE4

FIFTEENTH2

MIXTURE-III-1-1/3

TRUMPET8

 

SWELL

 

BOURDON16

VIOLA8

CELESTE8

CHIMNEYFLUTE8

PRESTANT4

HARMONICSTOPPEDFLUTE4

NAZARD2-2/3

NIGHTHORN2

TIERCE1-3/5

FURNITURE-III-2

CONTRAHAUTBOY16

HARMONICTRUMPET8

HAUTBOY8-EXT

PEDAL

 

MAJORBASS16

BOURDON16-SWELL

PRINCIPAL8

BOURDON8-SWELL

FIFTEENTH4

TROMBONE16-EXT GREAT

HAUTBOY16-SWELL

TRUMPET8-GREAT

 

IMHO a sensible scheme, with which I can find little fault. Thankyou, Steve. Within the number of ranks it is difficult to think of much improvement.

 

If this were to be built for me, I would want to make sure that the Viola is pretty substantial - I don't mind the Celeste rank (similarly) having to be a biggish scale and tone. I happen to like big celestes, but the point is, the Viola and the Chimney Flute together have to make a firm basis for a decent chorus.

After that, perhaps I miss a Great Twelfth; however, if one were adding further ranks at all, my first extra would have to be a Pedal 4' Flute - especially useful for the playing of trios.

 

I support the inclusion of the Great Dulciana - despite the fact that some on this site don't see the point of them! Accompaniment of voices (or solo stops on the other manual) can justify this inclusion - maybe something with a little more character might be an small improvement - make it a Dolcan or a Salicional perhaps?

 

Some years ago there was a common drive over here to remove Harmonic Flutes which had been (for quite a time) traditional on English Great organs. In some ways, I would find a Harmonic Fluite more useful than a Coppel Flute - particularly if the rank were to be Harmonic from tenor C - there are so many luscious solos for such a stop (played an octave down). I agree that its use in chorus and combination is more important, and obviously you need to have a decently voiced rank on not too high a pressure. I take it that this is a given?

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2m liturgical

 

GREAT

 

OPENDIAPASON8

STOPPEDDIAPASON8

GEMSHORN8

DULCIANA8

PRINCIPAL4

COPPELFLUTE4

FIFTEENTH2

MIXTURE-III-1-1/3

TRUMPET8

 

SWELL

 

BOURDON16

VIOLA8

CELESTE8

CHIMNEYFLUTE8

PRESTANT4

HARMONICSTOPPEDFLUTE4

NAZARD2-2/3

NIGHTHORN2

TIERCE1-3/5

FURNITURE-III-2

CONTRAHAUTBOY16

HARMONICTRUMPET8

HAUTBOY8-EXT

PEDAL

 

MAJORBASS16

BOURDON16-SWELL

PRINCIPAL8

BOURDON8-SWELL

FIFTEENTH4

TROMBONE16-EXT GREAT

HAUTBOY16-SWELL

TRUMPET8-GREAT

 

 

Well, it is certainly better - but it is also ten stops larger than the twenty which I had specified.

 

The GO is quite good - my own preference is for a Gamba, as opposed to a Gemshorn. I would also agree with Paul regarding the Harmonic Flute - a most useful stop.

 

I would, in preference, have placed the Bourdon on the GO - and had a separate rank for the Pedal stop.

 

I would also wish for a (Separate) Open Diapason 8p on the Swell (in place of the Bourdon).

 

I include my own re-working of this scheme:

 

Sub Bourdon (Emp.) 32

Open Diapason (M) 16

Bourdon 16

Principal 8

Stopped Flute (Emp.) 8

Fifteenth 4

Posaune (M) 16

Shawm 4

GO to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

 

GO

Quintatön 16

Open Diapason 8

Rohr Flöte 8

Gamba 8

Octave 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV

Trumpet 8

Swell to GO

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Open Diapason 8

Flauto Traverso 8

Viole de Gambe 8

Voix Céleste (CC) 8

Principal 4

Wald Flöte 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture (15-19-22-26) IV

Double Trumpet 16

Hautbois 8

Cornopean 8

Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

Incidentally, I have also mentioned that my favourite instrument is the large C-C at N.-D. de Paris. I do not have time to count the ranks now, but I estimate that it is approximately one hundred and fifty. However, the instrument speaks, as it were, with a single personality. There is, as far as I know, absolutely no duplexing or extension anywhere - not even on the Pédale Orgue.

 

Now that is a fantastic instrument. As you are fond of saying - it has to be heard live really to appreciate it.

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Guest Lee Blick

NEW CONCEPT ORGAN FOR

ST. PETE’S, THE VATICANT

 

The basic concept for this organ is to do away all the manuals except for one so the space saved can be used to house as many stop tabs as possible. The manual will be divided and there will be eight expression pedals with two crescendo pedals, one to control the stop and the other to automate the thurible..

 

 

emMANUEL

64 Gravissimaria

32 Open Toilet

32 Closed Toilet

16 Bourdon the Ridiculous

8 Open Pope Pius 1

8 Open Pope Pius II

8 Open Pope Pius III

8 Open Pope Pius IV

8 Open Pope Pius V

8 Open Pope Pius VI

8 Open Pope Pius XXXI

5 1/3 Squinted John-Paiul

4 Half-arsed Fundie Gay Haters

4 Pretense

4 Voix Angelica

4 Voix Celestes

4 Voix Loud Touriissimo

2 2/3 & 2 Piccolot a Nasal

III Mixture (popes, tarts, altar-boys)

 

 

Pedal Pulldowns

Pedal Pullups (quick, someones knocking on the vestry door)

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NEW CONCEPT ORGAN FOR

ST. PETE’S, THE VATICANT

 

The basic concept for this organ is to do away all the manuals except for one so the space saved can be used to house as many stop tabs as possible.  The manual will be divided and there will be eight expression pedals with two crescendo pedals, one to control the stop and the other to automate the thurible..

emMANUEL

64 Gravissimaria

32 Open Toilet

32 Closed Toilet

16 Bourdon the Ridiculous

  8  Open Pope Pius 1

  8  Open Pope Pius II

  8  Open Pope Pius III

  8  Open Pope Pius IV

  8  Open Pope Pius V

  8  Open Pope Pius VI

  8  Open Pope Pius XXXI

  5 1/3  Squinted John-Paiul

  4  Half-arsed Fundie Gay Haters

  4  Pretense

  4  Voix Angelica

  4 Voix Celestes

  4  Voix Loud Touriissimo

  2 2/3 & 2 Piccolot a Nasal

  III Mixture (popes, tarts, altar-boys)

 

 

Pedal Pulldowns

Pedal Pullups (quick, someones knocking on the vestry door)

 

:o FINALLY -- A USEFUL Vatican Specification!!!!!!!!!!

 

(only kidding!) :o

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After looking through his recent posts, I'm changing my opinion of Steve C Bournias. I think he's got a lot more than vast schemes to offer and I read what he has to say more assidiously and with a lot more humour, understanding and tolerance.

 

Steve: I've had another look through your scheme. It's good to have an "America Mega Organ Scheme" for the Vatican at last and yours is a fine scheme. I'm sure it's just an oversight but it seems to be missing a 14th 2 2/7 on Great A. If you're going to a sixteenth 1 7/9 then I think it should have one.... Sorry.

 

My major gripe would be using it. I don't think organists would get much time to acclimatise to it in practice and discover the wealth of sound and colour it could provide. I doubt that even a titulare of the calibre of Cochereau in post for many years would have discovered even a fraction of the sounds it could give.

 

If I were visiting this organ to play it in anger, I would probably have enough time to learn which swell pedals to use, stick to the divisional pistons, give a blast on the rather excitingly named stops of the fanfare division and hope for the best. It would have to be a "smash and grab" and I would leave thinking I hadn't really used my time there well or really got to understand the organ. I probably wouldn't really have time to think about which one of the three swell 2' flutes would be best to use - and when would I use the other two instead? It seems a bit of a waste, really.

 

I haven't been to the Vatican so I don't feel qualified to dream up my own spec for it. For now, I would simply have the choir organ at Alkmaar installed and let people marvel that something so small and beautiful can produce so much noise.

 

Seeing for the recent love of specifications, here is its stop list:

 

Hoofdwerk (FGA - g''a'')

 

Doof 8 I-II

Octaaf Doof 4 I-III

Mixtuur II-VI

Scharp III-VI

Trompet 8

 

(on the bovenwerk chest, played from the Hoofdwerk keys)

Holpyp 8

Openfluyt 4

Sufflet 1 1/3

 

Borstwerk (FGA - g''a'')

Quintadena 8

Fluyt 4

Octaaf 2

Super Octaaf 1 I-II

 

Pedal (FGA- c)

Trompet 8

 

Borstwerk to Hoofdwerk - by 2 small brass knobs between the keyboards (not to be operated while playing the organ)

Hoofdwerk to Pedal

Tremulant

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  • 3 weeks later...

Saint Pierre Basilique

 

Grand Choeur-manual I

 

Principal32

Montre16

Chamois16

Nasard10-2/3

Montre8

Principal8

Bourdon8

Flute8

Tierce6-2/5

Quinte5-1/3

Prestant4

Octave4

Fourniture-IX

Cymbale-VII

Tubamagna16

Trompette8

Clairon4

Chamade8

Octaves Graves

 

 

 

 

Grand Orgue-manual II

 

 

Violon-basse32

Principal16

Bourdon16

Montre8

Diapason8

Bourdon8

Fluteharmonique8

Violedegambe8

Nasard5-1/3

Prestant4

Octave4

Flute4

Cordenuit4

Tierce3-1/5

Doublette2

Fourniture-VII

Cymbale-V

Bombarde16

Basson16

Trompette8

Basson8

Clairon4

Soprano4

Grandcornet-V

Chamade8

Chamade4

Octavesgraves

 

 

 

Recit Expressif-manual III

 

 

Gambe32

Diapasonconique16

Bourdondoux16

Diapason8

Montreconique8

Bourdon8

Flutetraversiere8

Violoncelle8

Voixceleste8

Eolienneceleste8-II

Fluteceleste8-II

Prestant4

Fluteharmonique4

Undamaris4-II

Tierce3-1/5

Nasard2-2/3

Doublette2

Octavin2

Petittierce1-3/5

Pleinjeu-VI

Cymbale-IV

Basson32

Bombarde16

Trompette8

Hautbois8

Corharmonie8

Clarinette8

Voixhumaine8

Clairon4

Tremblant

Octavesgraves

 

 

 

Positif Expressif-manual IV

 

 

Violonconique16

Quintaton16

Montre8

Bourdon8

Dessusdeflute8

Salicional8

Undamaris8

Dulciane8

Voixangelique8

Voixseraphique8

Prestant4

Fluteabec4

Douceceleste4-II

Nasardharmonique2-2/3

Piccoloharmonique2

Tierceharmonique1-3/5

Larigotharmonique1-1/3

Septiemeharmonique1-1/7

Flageoletharmonique1

Neuviemeharmonique8/9

Onzeimemeharmonique8/11

PetitJeu-IV

Cymbale-III

Jeudeclochette-II

Ranquette16

Trompette8

Cromorne8

Chalumeau4

Tremblant

Octavesgraves

 

 

 

Clavierdesbombardes-manual V

 

 

 

Quintaton32

Montre16

Montre8

Quinte5-1/3

Prestant4

Tierce3-1/5

Septieme2-2/7

Neuvieme1-7/9

Onzeime8/11

Grandpleinjeu-IX

Eclat-VIII

Bombarde16

Trompetteharmonique8

Claironharmonique4

Chamade16

Chamade8

Chamade4

Buccine Pontificale 8....action electrique

Octavesgraves

 

 

Solo Expressif-manual VI

 

Bourdon32

Diapason-basse16

Diapasonmajeur8

Flutemajeurharmonique

Bourdonharmonique8

Gambemajeur8

Majeurceleste8

Chordesdorchestre8-V

Octavemajeur4

Grosseflute4

Flutemagique4

Piccolodconcert2

Grandfourniture-VIII

Contretrombone16

Coranglais16

Trombonedorchestre8

Corfrancaise8

Basson-hautbois8

Hautboisdorchestre8

Cordebassette8

Musette8

Baryton8

Clairondorchestre4

Tubamajeur8....action electrique

Trompettemilitaire8....action electrique

Harmoniquesdesanches-VII

Tremblant

Octavesgrave

Claoches....action electrique

Cloachettes....action electrique

Harpeseraphique....action electrique

 

 

Choeur Expressif&ChordesdeVioles Expressif-manual VII

 

Violes16-II

Principalconique8

Violesdiapasons8-III

Gambesconique8-III

Violesdamour8-III

Bourdonconique8

Melodie8

Fluteceleste8

Chamois8-III

Cornodolce8-II

Undamaris8-III

Flutedargentceleste8-II

Flutemineurceleste8-II

Fugara4

Violes4-II

Fluteacheminee4

Petitfourniture-III

Violemixture-V

Voixbasse16

Voixalto8

Voixsoprano4

Tremblant

Octavesgrave

 

 

 

 

Pedale

 

 

Fluteconique64...BBBBB/A#A#A#A#A#/AAAAA

Contrebasse32

Contreflute32

Grossequinte21-1/3

Grosseflute16

Fluteouverte16

Montre16

Principal16

Diapason16

Violon16

Soubasse16

Bourdon16

Bourdondoux16

Quintaton16

Gambe16

Dulciane16

Nasard10-2/3

Prestant8

Violoncelle8

Flute8

Bourdon8

Tierce6-2/5

Septieme4-4/7

Neuvieme3-5/9

Onzeieme3-3/11

Bassedechorale4

Fluteapointe4

Fluteharmonique4

Basettedechorale2

Flutecruese2

Chamois1

Harmoniquesgrave64-IV

Bassedecornet32-IV

Sesquialterdouce-IV-16

Fourniture-VII

Cymbale-V

Trompettebasse64.....BBBBB/A#A#A#A#A#/AAAAA

Contrebombarde32

Bombarde16

Ophicleide16

Trombone16

Basson16

Regale16

Trompette8

Basson8

Cromorne8

Clairon4

Soprano4

Regale4

Cinq2

Chamade16

Chamade8

Chamade4

Cornet-V -16'

 

 

 

action barker=west gallery console

 

action electrique=main floor console

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By the way, and in order to add a little to this absurd thread, I visited Rome after Christmas 2004, and happened to visit St. Peter's Basilica just when there was a service in the quire, with organ accompaniment. It was a strange effect to stroll down the vast nave, East to West, with the higher frequencies steadily losing in power. When I arrived at the West end, the only music left to hear was the bass line.

 

So, if I was to draw up a stoplist for an organ there, it would have plenty of reed and mixture tone, along with doubled or tripled 4-foot principals in some divisions for a good singing line in the choruses. The space would be great for one or several truly grand Cornets of huge scale, and for bright and articulate reed choruses (not in the American manner, more along French classical lines). I would try to provide variety in this department -- colourful, beaming solo voices, bright ensembles -- rather than in the basses. 16-foot and 32-foot tone, in such a space, just works fine by itself, be it a Violone or an Open Wood. Variety in tone must take place above that level.

 

And there are some things you usually don't put into a stoplist. E. g., the scaling should be done with a good deal of treble ascendancy; the departments providing choral and congregation accompaniment should be placed low and must be provided with a type of casing that projects the sound well towards people. Shallow cases, overhanging roofs, that sort of thing.

 

But let's be honest, this place was not intended to house an organ in the first place.

 

Best,

Friedrich

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk

GREAT

MONTRE32

DIAPASON16

PRINCIPAL16

MONTRE16

BOURDON16

GEMSHORN16

DIAPASON8

PRINCIPAL8

MONTRE8

GEIGEN8

DOPPELOFFENFLOTE8

BOURDON8

HARMONICFLUTE8

CLARIBEL8

GAMBA8

SPITZFLOTE8

ERZAHLER8

FIFTH5-1/3

EIGHTH4

PRINCIPAL4

PRESTANT4

DIAPASONCONIQUE4

FLUTEOUVERTE4

FLUTECOUVERTE4

GEMSHORN4

GAMBETTE4

TENTH3-1/5

TWELFTH2-2/3

FIFTEENTH2

SUPEROCTAVE2

BLOCKFLOTE2

FLAGEOLETHARMONIQUE2

SEVENTEENTH1-3/5

NINETEENTH1-1/3

TWENTY-SECOND1

FULLMIXTURE-V-4

GRANDFOURNITIURE-V-2-2/3

PLEINJEU-V-2

FOURNITURE-V-1-1/3

SMALLMIXTURE-IV-1

CYMBALE-IV-2/3

BOMBARDE16

BOMBARDE8

BOMBARDE4

CORNETSUB-V-16series

CORNET-V-unison-series

CHAMADE16

CHAMADE8

CHAMADE4

CHAMADE2/32

great unison

 

 

 

Sorry, folks: as far as I am concerned, this small excerpt of a recent posting is sufficient to completely convince me: yfd absolutely must be Steve Bournias.

 

Dear yfd - your first post claimed you don't know much about organs.... it was an interesting first posting, very naive and purposefully tentative. Now (a mere three weeks and handful of postings later) you are drawing up cloned copies of the great Steve C. B's 'no limits - unlimited budget and space' specs.

 

1. Are you for real? If so, what is all this 'I don't know much about organs' spiel?

 

or 2. If you're actually Steve, by posting from someone else's e-mail address under an alias you are attempting to bypass the moderators on this site who are only trying to manage this site for the benefit of all readers.

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Yes - if indeed you are Steve Bournias and using another identity, your apparent disingenuousness does not deceive.

 

I am beginning to wonder why you bother, Mr, Bournias. Your schemes appear to me to lack restraint and real understanding.

 

As I have said before, there is little art or skill involved in drawing-up enormous schemes such as your examples. All one need do is to include one of just about every stop which can readily be recalled - preferably including several at a variety of pitches, give it a grand-sounding name and - voila! you have an enormous organ....

 

Speaking for myself, I must confess that I find it all rather boring. Your schemes look, as Paul has said, like clones one from another (incidentally, I do not know if you know, but Dolly the Sheep died a while ago). It seems to me as if your schemes might have died too. Certainly they have lost any inventiveness which they might once have possessed.

 

For anyone who thinks I may be being unfair to Mr. Bournias, that is your prerogative - I understand - but I really am tired of this cycle of bombardment with large and badly thought-out schemes, followed by emotional diatribes directed at any who dare to criticise any aspect of the schemes - which are then followed by a vague apology or 'heartfelt thanks' to anyone who generously offers an olive-branch, as it were.

 

OK, I have now got that off my chest.

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yfd absolutely must be Steve Bournias.
Of course he is, Paul. As I hinted in another post, yfd stands for "Youngstown Fire Department" (in Ohio, of course), another of Mr Bournias's interests; he is (or was) active in their forum.

 

In my opinion, I think it is pretty clear that Mr B is a troll who, for reasons of his own, has some sort of grudge against either English organs or Manders in particular and is deliberately trying to disrupt the forum (which is what trolls do). His habit of deleting his posts, thus rendering the threads virtually unreadable, is proof of that. It is certainly a great discourtesy to his hosts.

 

The best way - in fact the only way - to deal with trolls is to ignore them entirely (which in future I shall be doing).

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A good idea, Vox Humana - I think that I shall do the same.

 

Having said that, if Steve Bournias is going to become a kind of human chameleon, it may prove to be rather tricky - probably increasing exponentially, depending on the number of alternative identites he chooses to adopt.

 

....Which set me wondering idly about what would happen if one were to place a live chameleon on a tartan rug?

 

:P

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Good Morning,

 

 

I have read some of the comments here with interest as they relate to the duplexing and/or borrowing of stops around the organ.

 

I am sympathetic with the Skinner ideal of an "augmented pedal", which makes use of the manual doubles and has dedicated ranks that are unified at 16' and 8'. My sense is that there is a great variety of suitable bass available thanks to this system that would otherwise be somewhat hindered by simple coupling, should the "donor" manual in question be required for other duties. Although it is certainly desirable to have an independent 8' and 4', particularly for a Cantus Firmus tone, I have not yet heard Pedal upperwork that I care for here in the States. My impression is that the Pedal couplers allow the character of the desired manual to be added to the Pedal with balance, whereas the sort of upperwork I find here tends to be out-of-balance.

 

As far as duplexing goes, it can be rather useful in situations where such a division has more than one solo reed or celeste perhaps. The Newberry Organ at Woolsey Hall, Yale has two entirely duplexed divisions; one being the Orchestral and the other the Echo. The Orchestral is available on the Swell and Choir manuals in completely independent fashion, allowing for instance the Orchestral Oboe and Corno di Bassetto to dialogue. The Echo is available on the Great and Solo manuals to provide flexibility as to what it can be played against.

 

It is rather interesting that in the specification for one of our local instruments here in Connecticut, a Moller instrument by Richard Whitelegg, there are several instances of borrowing and even unification; and yet the instrument more-or-less behaves as a normal "straight" organ would be expected to. Just off the top of my head I can think of the following examples:

 

1. The Great Double is offered at 4' pitch as an alternative to the 4' Principal

2. The Swell 16' reed is offered at 4' pitch to great effect

3. The Choir Dulciana <g>, is quite heavily unified from 4' to 1 3/5' (I'm not sure why)

4. The Great Tromba, which is enclosed in the Choir box, is duplexed with the Choir

 

Certainly in an ideal world such things would not be necessary, however, a clever and tasteful organ builder can use borrowing and duplexing to great effect.

 

Best Regards,

 

Nathan

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk

Dear Nathan,

I would welcome you to this board as a co-contributor, but after our recent experience, I need to ask on behalf of friends and colleagues:

Are you even slightly from Ohio?

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I think we may be safe, Paul!

 

There are two other States in-between: New Jersey and Pennsylvania. I would guess that the State of Connecticut is roughly five hundred miles from Ohio....

 

Just as long as Nathan does not post schemes for enormous instruments....

 

....Apart from that, I would also like to welcome him to this board!

 

:P

 

Of course, if Nathan has relatives in Ohio....

 

:P

 

Just kidding.

 

Welcome, Nathan!

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