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Cavaille-coll, Mutin, Walcker & Steinmeyer


MusingMuso
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==============================

 

Listen to Bach played on a Cavaille-Coll with "classical" registration, and the result is harsh and brittle IMHO. I don't think Bach would have liked it anyway!

 

MM

 

I have one exception to offer - the superb Daniel Roth recording at S. Sulpice, playing only Bach. It sounds wonderful.

 

I am fairly certain that if one were to play 'Drop the Laser', very few would be able to guess either the builder or the location. But then, M. Roth is a superb player - so utterly musical.

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Yes, but, in his case, the tierce rank was almost always ommitted above the first twelve notes.

 

=========================

 

 

Aha! Not quite so, it would seem.

 

Wm.Hill covers that fascinating period of considerable tonal experiment in the UK, and in the collaboration of Hill and Dr.Gauntlett, there appeared quite separate Tierce ranks, as indeed other builders such as Jardine experimented with.

 

Specification alert!!!!!!!!

 

EASTBROOK HALL BRADFORD 1859

 

Pedal

1 Acoustic Bass 32

2 Open Wood 16

3 Open Metal 16

4 Sub Bass 16

5 Principal 8

6 Bass Flute 8

7 Twelfth 5 1/3

8 Octave 4

9 Octave Flute 4

10 Sesquialtera V

11 Trombone 16

12 Clarion 8

13 Krummhorn 4

 

 

 

 

Choir

14 Open Diapason 8

15 Stopped Diapason 8

16 Viol di Gamba 8

17 Gemshorn 4

18 Flute 4

19 Nazard 2 2/3

20 Flageolet 2

21 Tierce 1 3/5

22 Clarinet 8

23 Tuba 8

24 Tuba Clarion 4

25 Tremulant

 

 

 

 

Great

26 Double Open Diapason 16

27 Open Diapason 1 8

28 Open Diapason 2 8

29 Stopped Diapason 8

30 Dulciana 8

31 Quint 5 1/3

32 Octave 4

33 Harmonic Flute 4

34 Tenth 3 1/5

35 Twelfth 2 2/3

36 Fifteenth 2

37 Sesquialtera V

38 Mixture III

39 Trumpet 8

40 Clarion 4

 

 

 

 

Swell

41 Open Diapason 8

42 Stopped Diapason 8

43 Echo Gamba 8

44 Voix Celeste 8

45 Principal 4

46 Open Flute 4

47 Twelfth 2 2/3

48 Super Octave 2

49 Mixture III

50 Contra Fagotto 16

51 Cornopean 8

52 Oboe 8

53 Clarion 4

54 Tremulant

 

 

I would have to check this out a little more, but this dates from 1859, which if I recall correctly (I will have to check this too) pre-dates the Doncaster Schulze and the influence it had on UK organ-building.

 

Also the following snippets of information from my notes:-

 

Ashton-0under-Lyne PC - 1845 re-build and additions.

GREAT

Included SEPARATE 3.1/5 and 1.3/5 registers

Mixtures as follows:-

17.19.22

24.26.29

 

SWELL

 

17.19.22

 

CHOIR?

Dulciana Cornet 1.8.12.15.17

 

 

CHEETHAM HILL, MANCHESTER 1840

 

Sesquialtera on Gt. Organ only had a 2rk quint mixture on the very under-developed, minimal Swell.

 

TAUNTON, SOMERSET

 

Gt V rks Sesquialtera

Gt V rks Mixture (presumably Quint)

 

----------------------------

 

Around this time, mixture pipe scales were fairly normal, with low cut-ups, prompt speech and minimal nicking.

 

The reason why Willis mixtures do what they do is connected to the fact that he used small scales, slow speech, quite fluty but hard toned voicing with copious nicking and he blew the things very hard. As a consequence, they really are not very good chorus mixtures at all, but did tend to bridge the gap between the stringy flues and the somewhat ferocious reeds.

 

Power was everything, even at the expense of tonal quality.

 

Go back in time to Alkmaar (1725-ish?) and one sees great big tierce mixtures intended not for solo use, but as part of the chorus. They are quick to speak, bright in pitch but quite gentle of tone and blend wonderfully with the chorus-work.....but then, this was the Schnitger dynasty, and they knew how to do it like no-one else.

 

We tend to write off the gritty sound of tierce mixtures in the UK, or relegate them to some far-flung corner of the instrument, but they are part and parcel of the Bach tradition, just as they are part of the UK tradition in the 18th century and beyond.

 

I have to admit that I LIKE tierce mixtures, so I may be biased.

 

 

 

MM

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Well, that is interesting!

 

I shall have to read that thoroughly; but that is one of the things that I like about this site - it is possible to learn so much from others.

 

Thank you MM - it looks to be a really good stop-list; I would not mind having to play that organ every week.

 

:)

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Evidently Vierne DID get his cymbale for the Recit afterall  but NOT in 1904 and not from Mutin, but rather in 1932 ,28 long years later from another individual who made several additions and revisions. Vierne wanted the chamades that Cavaille-coll had done in 1889 duplicated for Notre Dame but alas that did not happen even remotely till the 1960s when Cochereau had some added and quite frankly they fail miserably compared to C-C's models but the more recent 1990s chamade additions are more in keeping with the C-C 1889 specimens that Vierne so dearly loved.

 

 

The other individual was actually the successor to the firm of Cavaillé-Coll - then under the direction of Beuchet. Mutin was to have undertaken the work, but he was ordered (by the Beaux-Arts) to postpone the work, on February 14th, 1931, until further notice.

 

The chamades desired by Cochereau were not actually added (by Robert Boisseau) until either 1970 or 1971. They were certainly not present in 1969.

 

I do not believe that they were ever intended to be copies of C-C examples. The more recent additional chamades (8 and 4p; 1992) are more in keeping because they are deliberate copies of the two chamade ranks which C-C had placed on the GO of the fabulous instrument in S. Sernin, Toulouse.

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Well, that is interesting!

 

I shall have to read that thoroughly; but that is one of the things that I like about this site - it is possible to learn so much from others.

 

Thank you MM - it looks to be a really good stop-list; I would not mind having to play that organ every week.

 

:)

 

======================

 

Well, you can certainly play it and hear it, for this was the organ by Hill which Dr.Nicholas Thistlethwaite had a hand in relocating to the Methodist Church, Cambridge, where it now amply fills the building.

 

It is not a huge sound, even at Cambridge: much less so in the vast space of the Methodist Eastbrook Hall, Bradford, which following a fire, is now a shell about to undergo re-development. The organ sounded very distant in that building, but it sounded nice. Miraculously, the organ was removed before fire wrecked the building.

 

MM

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===========================

Well, I don't think we need to restrict ourselves to Steinmeyer organs. I have been fascinated to hear the quality of the Mutin organs, which although Cavaille-Coll in nature, sound just that little bit different. Sites like this are unusually interesting when one hasn't heard a particular type of organ live, and being honest, I don't know where I would go to find a Mutin organ.

 

MM

 

You could save a fare to France by going instead to Farnborough Abbey. The organ there FarnboroughAbbeyOrganarrived in 1905. It has a Cavaille Coll name plate - but since he had died in 1899 then it was either second hand or Mutin was using old parts - anyway go and hear it - next series of recitals starts in May. It is truely a remarkable organ, considering it has so few stops - for me listening to it gives far more pleasure than most organs 3 or 4 times the size.

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Indeed - I had forgotten about this organ. There are some excellent recordings still available which Michael Howard made on this lovely instrument.

 

On the subject of C-C (or Mutin) in this country - does anyone know whether the large (five clavier?) C-C is still in Manchester? I believe that it was in the Free Trade Hall. If so, is it playable - or has it been neglected?

 

Any information gratefully received.

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[quote=pcnd5584,Jan 18 2006, 11:17 PM]
Indeed - I had forgotten about this organ. There are some excellent recordings still available which Michael Howard made on this lovely instrument. 

On the subject of C-C (or Mutin) in this country - does anyone know whether the large (five clavier?) C-C is still in Manchester? I believe that it was in the Free Trade Hall. If so, is it playable - or has it been neglected?

Any information gratefully received.
[right][snapback]5346[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

 

C-C (with dodgy Wadsworth/Jardine additions) in Manchester Town Hall alive and well, but not used much.

4M+P 20 rk Wurlitzer formerly in Free Trade Hall now in Stockport TH

Regards

Paul.

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Guest Barry Oakley

I cannot find any reference to a substantial Cavaille-Coll organ that was installed in the Albert Hall, Sheffield, during the 19th century. I wondered if Mutin had any hand in its construction. The building was destroyed by fire during the early part of the 20th century. Apparently the source of power for the blower(s) was by human treadmill, the human workhorses being lured out of local pubs by the promise of literally many buckets of ale.

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I cannot find any reference to a substantial Cavaille-Coll organ that was installed in the Albert Hall, Sheffield, during the 19th century. I wondered if Mutin had any hand in its construction. The building was destroyed by fire during the early part of the 20th century. Apparently the source of power for the blower(s) was by human treadmill, the human workhorses being lured out of local pubs by the promise of literally many buckets of ale.

 

=====================

 

 

SPECIFICATION ALERT!!!!

 

 

SHEFFIELD, ALBERT HALL

 

 

Cavaille-Coll, Paris, France, 1873

 

I. GRANDE-ORGUE (61) IV. SOLO EXPRESSIF (61)

16 Montre 16 Bourdon

16 Bourdon 8 Diapason

16 Gambe 8 Flute harmonique

8 Montre 4 Flute octaviante

8 Diapason 2-2/3 Quinte

8 Flute harmonique 2 Doublette

8 Viole de gambe 1-3/5 Tierce

8 Bourdon 16 Tuba magna en chamade

4 Prestant 8 Trompette en chamade

4 Octave flute 8 Clarinette

2-2/3 Quinte 8 Musette

V Fourniture 4 Clairon en chamade

IV Cymbale

16 Bombarde

8 Trompette

4 Clarion

 

II. POSITIF EXPRESSIF (61) PEDALE (30)

16 Quintaton 32 Principal basse

8 Principal 16 Contrebasse

8 Nachthorn 16 Soubasse

8 Unda Maris (tc) 10-2/3 Quinte

4 Prestant 8 Basse

4 Flute douce 8 Violoncelle

2-2/3 Quinte 4 Corno dolce

2 Doublette 32 Contre-bombarde

1 Piccolo 16 Bombarde

8 Cromorne 8 Trompette

8 Basson-hautbois 4 Clairon

8 Voix Humana

 

III. RECIT (61) PEDALES DE COMBINAISON

16 Bourdon Orage

8 Diapason Tirasses: Grand-Orgue

8 Flute traversiere Tirasses: Positif

8 Viole de gambe Tirasses: Recit

8 Voix celeste (tc) Tirasses: Solo

4 Flute octaviante Anches: Pedal

4 Viol d'amour Anches: Grand-Orgue

2 Doublette Anches: Positif

II-IV Cornet Anches: Recit

16 Cor anglais Anches: Solo

8 Trompette Accouplements au G-O: Octaves graves

4 Clarion harmonique Accouplements au G-O: Positif

Accouplements au G-O: Recit

Accouplements au G-O: Solo

Grand-Orgue sur Machine

Recit au Positiv

Expression: Positiv

Expression: Recit

Expression: Solo

Tremblant Positif

Tremblant Recit

 

This instrument was played by Saint-Saens in the Cavaille-Coll workshop

on May 7, 1873. It was destroyed by fire on July 14, 1937.

 

I think this organ was a twin to the one in Monmatre.

 

The instrument was human powered, and the story is that locals were bribed onto a treadmill by the prospect of free-ale afterwards!!

 

MM

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It's been quite interesting digging around looking for details of extant Steinmeyer organs on the internet, and finding very few references to them.

 

I'm sure quite a lot exist, but the extraordinary thing is that almost no-one seems to be recording anything on them, whereas the name Walcker brings up any amount of material.

 

I recall Martin Haselbock telling me that when Steinmeyer closed their doors, the factory was turned over to furniture-production.

 

I have tracked one instrument down in American, at Altoona, and this can be heard for sure, but it doesn't solve the mystery as to why the German organists seem to completely overlook Steinmeyer, or seem to prefer modern instruments for Reger.....very odd.

 

I shall post a few URL's when I've finished digging around, including a full-length mp3 file of the Walcker at Riga Dom, in Latvia, which Flentrop restored from Russian funding. What a wonderful leaving-present!! :)

 

MM

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=====================

SPECIFICATION ALERT!!!!

SHEFFIELD, ALBERT HALL

Cavaille-Coll, Paris, France, 1873

 

I. GRANDE-ORGUE (61)            IV. SOLO EXPRESSIF (61)

16 Montre                      16 Bourdon

16 Bourdon                      8 Diapason

16 Gambe                        8 Flute harmonique

8 Montre                        4 Flute octaviante

8 Diapason                    2-2/3 Quinte

8 Flute harmonique              2 Doublette

8 Viole de gambe              1-3/5 Tierce

8 Bourdon                      16 Tuba magna en chamade

4 Prestant                      8 Trompette en chamade

4 Octave flute                  8 Clarinette

2-2/3 Quinte                    8 Musette

V Fourniture                    4 Clairon en chamade

IV Cymbale

16 Bombarde

8 Trompette

4 Clarion

 

II. POSITIF EXPRESSIF (61)      PEDALE (30)

16 Quintaton                    32 Principal basse

8 Principal                    16 Contrebasse

8 Nachthorn                    16 Soubasse

8 Unda Maris (tc)              10-2/3 Quinte

4 Prestant                      8 Basse

4 Flute douce                  8 Violoncelle

2-2/3 Quinte                    4 Corno dolce

2 Doublette                    32 Contre-bombarde

1 Piccolo                      16 Bombarde

8 Cromorne                      8 Trompette

8 Basson-hautbois              4 Clairon

8 Voix Humana

 

III. RECIT (61)                PEDALES DE COMBINAISON

16 Bourdon                      Orage

8 Diapason                    Tirasses: Grand-Orgue

8 Flute traversiere            Tirasses: Positif

8 Viole de gambe              Tirasses: Recit

8 Voix celeste (tc)            Tirasses: Solo

4 Flute octaviante            Anches: Pedal

4 Viol d'amour                Anches: Grand-Orgue

2 Doublette                    Anches: Positif

II-IV Cornet                    Anches: Recit

16 Cor anglais                  Anches: Solo

8 Trompette                    Accouplements au G-O: Octaves graves

4 Clarion harmonique          Accouplements au G-O: Positif

                                Accouplements au G-O: Recit

                                Accouplements au G-O: Solo

                                Grand-Orgue sur Machine

                                Recit au Positiv

                                Expression: Positiv

                                Expression: Recit

                                Expression: Solo

                                Tremblant Positif

                                Tremblant Recit

 

This instrument was played by Saint-Saens in the Cavaille-Coll workshop

on May 7, 1873.  It was destroyed by fire on July 14, 1937.

 

I think this organ was a twin to the one in Monmatre.

 

The instrument was human powered, and the story is that locals were bribed onto a treadmill by the prospect of free-ale afterwards!!

 

MM

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=====================

 

I think this organ was a twin to the one in Monmatre.

 

MM

 

Almost - the C-C in Sacré-Coeur has a bunch of separate mutations on the Pédale Orgue, à la Nôtre-Dame.

 

I think also that the Pédale Corno Dolce was removed and another 8p rank substituted by a British builder, possibly early in the 20th Century.

 

Nice organ, though.

 

The sixty-one note compass is a little unusual - even N.-D. is still only fifty-six notes. Presumably it was requested by the original client (for a private residence in Biarritz).

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[quote=MusingMuso,Jan 19 2006, 01:54 PM]
It's been quite interesting digging around looking for details of extant Steinmeyer organs on the internet, and finding very few references to them. 
[...] 
I have tracked one instrument down in American, at Altoona, and this can be heard for sure, but it doesn't solve the mystery as to why the German organists seem to completely overlook Steinmeyer, or seem to prefer modern instruments for Reger.....very odd.

 

There are three large Steinmeyer organs from before World War II still playing: The organ in the Christuskirche, Mannheim, built in 1911; the large organ in the Nidaros Cathedral, Trondheim, Norway, built in 1930 and to be restored soon; and the organ in St. Lorenz, Nuremberg, built in 1937 and restored recently by Klais. Another old Steinmeyer still exists, the three-manual organ from the Schuetzenhaus, Meiningen, that was examined and accepted by Max Reger; in 1920 the organ was transferred to the Weihnachtskirche in Berlin-Haselhorst, where it can still be played and heard.

 

The big Steinmeyer of Passau cathedral, built in 1928, is long gone now, which is a shame.

 

It appears as though Steinmeyer, about twenty years after World War II, became out of favour with the German organists. They had built some large instruments in the 1950ies, such as the organs in the Meistersinger Hall, Nuremberg, the Ottobeuren monastery church, the Stadtkirche, Karlsruhe, and Vierzehnheiligen. The latter was replaced by a big and reportedly very loud Rieger in 1999; Ottobeuren was renovated by Klais recently, and loudened quite a bit, as I was told.

 

The big 1960 Steinmeyer in Hamburg, St. Michaelis, a five-manual tracker-action instrument on a grand scale, was a success, but I know of no other example of a mechanical Steinmeyer of that portions. Their last major work was carried out in 1988 with Kleuker of Brackwede: the organ for the Zurich Tonhalle, designed by Jean Guillou. The organ has been revoiced since by van den Heuvel.

 

CDs:

Nuremberg (Meistersingerhalle) and Vierzehnheiligen can be heard in Werner Jacob's recording of Reger's op. 52 fantasias (Christophorus CHE 0091-2).

Ottobeuren in its original state was played by Karl Richter in 1958 in his recording of the "Dorian" Toccata and Fugue BWV 738, and the "Sei gegruesset" Partita BWV 768 (this spectacular recording was reissued by Teldec as 4509-97901-2).

The Mannheim organ can be heard in Vol. 1 of the Motette Reger series (MOT 11501).

The Karlsruhe Steinmeyer appears in Christian-Markus Raiser's recording "Romantische Orgelmusik" (Hänssler CD 98.342).

 

The recordings that are the most interesting are those of Steinmeyer organs from the 1950ies. They have bright and sparkling choruses, many of which include thirds, and lean but not shrill chorus reeds; the foundations retained their romantic colouring, even in Orgelbewegung times. There is much brightness to the sound, sometimes bordering to shrillness; but the grand registrations sound also quite fiery and exciting. Maybe this emotional quality in te sound was too much for the Orgelbewegung organists, who strove for an objective kind of playing, and for more brightness and foundations rather neutral than poetic.

 

Best regards,

Friedrich

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There are three large Steinmeyer organs from before World War II still playing: The organ in the Christuskirche, Mannheim, built in 1911; the large organ in the Nidaros Cathedral, Trondheim, Norway, built in 1930 and to be restored soon; and the organ in St. Lorenz, Nuremberg, built in 1937 and restored recently by Klais. Another old Steinmeyer still exists, the three-manual organ from the Schuetzenhaus, Meiningen, that was examined and accepted by Max Reger; in 1920 the organ was transferred to the Weihnachtskirche in Berlin-Haselhorst, where it can still be played and heard.

 

 

Friedrich,

 

you pop up everywhere. But so do I, I suppose.

 

I played a number of times in the Stadtkirche St. Veit in Wunsiedel. It is a Steinmeyer, perhaps not strictly "pre-war", because definitely enlarged and rebuilt since then (although also by Steinmeyer), but substantially so. It is a fine organ, needs a bit of care though.

 

Cheers

Barry

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Friedrich,

 

you pop up everywhere. But so do I, I suppose.

 

I played a number of times in the Stadtkirche St. Veit in Wunsiedel. It is a Steinmeyer, perhaps not strictly "pre-war", because definitely enlarged and rebuilt since then (although also by Steinmeyer), but substantially so. It is a fine organ, needs a bit of care though.

 

===================

 

 

Thanks to those who have supplied links to extant Steinmeyer organs.

 

Perhaps one of the best remaining examples is that in the Holy Sacrament Cathedral, Altoona in the US, dating from 1931, and which seems to treasured.

 

This can be heard on the Minnesota Public Radio programme, "Pipedreams," and the following link should take anyone interested straight to the programme featuring this remarkable instrument. A word of warning however, this recording pre-dates the much better sound-quality now associated with this wonderful radio programme, so it isn't the best. That stated, it is good enough to get some idea of the magnificence of this instrument and its' aptness for the music of Reger.

 

On a technical note, it is possible to scroll forward within the programme quite quickly, which saves time when searching for a particular item.

 

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/rafiles/shows/2048.ram

 

I just wonder why the Germans ended-up so despising organs like this.

 

MM

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On a technical note, it is possible to scroll forward within the programme quite quickly, which saves time when searching for a particular item.

 

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/rafiles/shows/2048.ram

 

 

 

====================

 

Sorry, I should have stated that the Reger "Wachet Auf!" item from Altoona, commences at 33m 30sec into the programme.

 

MM

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...

Perhaps one of the best remaining examples is that in the Holy Sacrament Cathedral, Altoona in the US, dating from 1931, and which seems to treasured.

...

I just wonder why the Germans ended-up so despising organs like this.

 

MM

 

Well, it's never too late as long as there are Steinmeyers left in the world. And Germans, of course.

Glad neither of them have "ended up" so far.

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