pcnd5584 Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 The ending I find more difficult than any other is the final quaver of the BWV 547 Fugue in C major (the one with the prelude in 9/8 time). I just cannot get this to make sense as notated - but I'm quite sure the failing is mine, not Bach's. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Personally, I think that Cochereau's interpretation makes good sense - he plays the fugue slowly and builds up to the tutti (with chamades) for the bigh chords - then reduces to a couple of 8p Bourdons for the ending, and just holds the chord for a shade longer. Since I feel that this mirrors the architecture of the piece quite well, I usually play it in the same way on my own instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 Er, yes... but somehow I doubt that's quite what Bach had in mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 Er, yes... but somehow I doubt that's quite what Bach had in mind! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> VH, you are almost certainly correct, but - it sounds so exciting, who cares? ... If there had been chamades in Bach's day.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heva Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 ... If there had been chamades in Bach's day.... Well, there were. But the poor sod never booked an EasyJet flight to Spain to hear them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted May 29, 2006 Share Posted May 29, 2006 Well, there were. But the poor sod never booked an EasyJet flight to Spain to hear them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ....Moreover, please warn a fortnight in advance before playing Bach on chamades in my area -in order I can make a reservation with Easyjet to build some distance- Lord, have mercy upon us. Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 You want a further puzzling Bach question? How about the case of several major majestic pieces that finish with extremely short final chords. Do you play right up to the buffers without slowing down and jump off the edge with a true (mathematically and politically correct) quaver - lemming style? Or do you draw it out a little 'in the grand manner' and finish properly? I know which feels right to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ================== When you've all finished fiddling around with your stops to get the perfect result, try this! http://www.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=xwnutCsHtGAgBxBEoE Click on the little loudspeaker under "concerten" on the right hand side, then click on the last track no.7. Another good reason to go to Holland! MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 ==================When you've all finished fiddling around with your stops to get the perfect result, try this! http://www.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=xwnutCsHtGAgBxBEoE Click on the little loudspeaker under "concerten" on the right hand side, then click on the last track no.7. Another good reason to go to Holland! MM <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Splendid! Thanks MM Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Well, there were. But the poor sod never booked an EasyJet flight to Spain to hear them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nah - proper ones, not those weedy Spanish things.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 ....Moreover, please warn a fortnight in advance before playing Bachon chamades in my area -in order I can make a reservation with Easyjet to build some distance- Lord, have mercy upon us. Pierre <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pierre, just for you, I shall try to load a sound-file of the chamades on my own instrument - you will just love them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Pierre, just for you, I shall try to load a sound-file of the chamades on my own instrument - you will just love them! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are welcome, I shall hear them with interest. But why would be the original, spanish chamades, not be the correct type? Do we prefer japanese or belgian-made Sushis? Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 VH, you are almost certainly correct, but - it sounds so exciting, who cares? ... If there had been chamades in Bach's day.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ================== They did have chamades in Bach's day! A Regal en Chamade doesn't have quite the same impact......but..... MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 ==================When you've all finished fiddling around with your stops to get the perfect result, try this! http://www.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=xwnutCsHtGAgBxBEoE Click on the little loudspeaker under "concerten" on the right hand side, then click on the last track no.7. Another good reason to go to Holland! MM <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ====================== No sooner did I hunt down the wonderful sound of St.Lauren's, Alkmaar, but the radio-station decided to undertake maintenance work. I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you come back to this link when the Dutch engineers have stopped fiddling about.....it is worth the wait. MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 ======================No sooner did I hunt down the wonderful sound of St.Lauren's, Alkmaar, but the radio-station decided to undertake maintenance work. I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you come back to this link when the Dutch engineers have stopped fiddling about.....it is worth the wait. MM <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ======================= This gets better by the hour...... Try the following URL instead, and then do all the clicks as described. http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=cpqbuCsHtGAiBzBGFsBzB MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwhodges Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 When you've all finished fiddling around with your stops to get the perfect result, try this! Another good reason to go to Holland! Yummy! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwhodges Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Getting back to the Piece d'Orgue, I have recently seen it suggested that the explanation of the bottom B is that the whole thing was intended for a pedal harpsichord with the central section being for manuals only; I understand there is an edition of it (Walther) available in this layout. What does anyone here think of this idea? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 I haven't looked the piece up and I certainly don't know the manuscripts, but my recollection is that there are just too many notes to play them all with just the hands. Does Walther's MS actually specify manualiter at this point? It would need to for the argument to hold water since it was common - normal even - for organ music to be written on just two staves at this time. Most of Bach's is, I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Getting back to the Piece d'Orgue, I have recently seen it suggested that the explanation of the bottom B is that the whole thing was intended for a pedal harpsichord with the central section being for manuals only; I understand there is an edition of it (Walther) available in this layout. What does anyone here think of this idea? Paul <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Whilst this may be the case, I would personally wish to know more about the compass of such an instrument. Since it is now quite late, I have only carried-out limited research, but so far I can only find references to a pedal tessitura of twenty-seven notes, commencing at C in the 16p octave - no mention of a ravelment, either - although the article (to which I append a link below) is not entirely clear on this point, simply stating that the compass was two notes larger than was common on organ pedal-boards at the time. http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/pedal/pedalharpsichord.htm I would be interested to learn more about this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgp Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 For me the question is whether JSB was writing theoretically (for a 'French' organ) or practically (for a harpsichord). The complication is that a 'ravellement' usually offers BBBb and AAA and does not include BBB natural. So it would be easy (ish) for a player to retune a CC# stringg as a BBB and thereby play it as written on a harpsichord (or pedal clavichord) and rather hard for an organist match - after most pedals didn't have CCC#. Of course, if you agree with this you are heading for the irony that a piece explicity marked 'pro organ pleno' is one that JSB could only have played/heard on a harpsichord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwhodges Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Whilst this may be the case, I would personally wish to know more about the compass of such an instrument. You miss the point, which is that if it is played manualiter, then the harpsichord provides the B anyway. It occurs to me that the highly decorated variant (given in NBA) might be more idiomatic on a harpsichord than an organ. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgp Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 You are right, if it is manualiter harpsichord piece. I was responding to pncd's point that baroque pedalboards for harpsichords/Clavichords seem to have started at C - ?possibly because they were mostly aimed at home use for organists? - but there's not much discussion of compass in most references I can find. Walther's copy apparently has a pedal marking at bar 176 (low D at end of central section) (Williams 2003 edition p 167). I have played the more ornamented version in recital (inegale) and it works fine on a well regulated action - I am reminded that today we are more pre-occupied with 'which instrument' than most baroque composers/performers were. And, finally, to answer the original question I usually register the last section with as full a sound as is compatible with clarity - based on speed of action and the acoustic. If that means a few tinkly flutes then maybe this isn't the right piece to be playing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Walther's copy apparently has a pedal marking at bar 176 (low D at end of central section) (Williams 2003 edition p 167).Now that is very interesting. Having now looked at the piece, I see that it is playable manualiter up to that point. And if Bach really was thinking in terms of a French grand plein jeu then, properly, it should be manuals only. This is one of the few organ pieces that survives in Bach's autograph, isn't it? I assume that's on two staves too? I'm beginning to think the harpsichord theory the most persuasive of the suggestions made so far. I could see the bottom B is a bit of idealism, achievable when practising at home, even if not on the organ. But the organ surely is the intended instrument. After all, Bach did call it "Organ Piece". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 You miss the point, which is that if it is played manualiter, then the harpsichord provides the B anyway. It occurs to me that the highly decorated variant (given in NBA) might be more idiomatic on a harpsichord than an organ. Paul <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well yes, I did - it was late and I did not notice the manualiter part.... I was probably still in a state of shock after losing about half of the contents of my previous HDD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprondel Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 ... And if Bach really was thinking in terms of a French grand plein jeu then, properly, it should be manuals only. This is one of the few organ pieces that survives in Bach's autograph, isn't it? I assume that's on two staves too? I'm beginning to think the harpsichord theory the most persuasive of the suggestions made so far. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, maybe Bach thought in terms of grandeur. But he simply did not know what a French Grand Jeu was about. He knew French scores, but he never experienced the fiery tone of French trumpets and Cornets, or a silvery grand plein jeu, for that matter. (Speaking of which: Would it have appealed to him, concealing the polyphonic texture as it does?) Even Silbermann's reeds were of modest scale and gentle tone if compared to what Clicquot did in organs of equal size. Bach might have heard or read of "ravalement" pedals, but why write a piece for a type of organ that exists hundreds of miles away but nowhere in the neighbourhood? Someone mentioned the compass in the treble. There were organs around that went beyond c'''. At least one Bach knew: The big Stertzing at Eisenach, built probably to specifications by Bach's uncle Johann Christoph. The organ had manuals with 53 keys, fully chromatic from C to e'''. Then there was the Mühlhausen organ, which was rebuilt to Bach's own specifications in 1708 and had manual/pedal compasses of C, D to d'''/C, D to d'. About the "harpsichord theory": I think it is as good as any, as long as it concerns that single infamous note in the bass. Sound-wise, it is anything but convincing. The "stile antico" texture of the five-part section would be mostly lost. The Pièce d'orgue sounds best on an organ, as does the Passacaglia, which from its first 19th-century editions on suffered from the burden of the "Pedalcembalo" rumor. It is so very well written for pipes, and so much less well for strings, that I wonder why the question ever came up. But then, around 1840 no-one knew what a pedal-harpsichord really sounded like. Try and make bar 89ff. or 129ff. of the Passacaglia sound good on a harpsichord ... I apologize if all this sounds a bit impatient. Best, Friedrich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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